Is 10 Man Actually As Hard?

[elitistniceguy]

This is an actual question. I'm in a rather progressed guild, 11/13 HM for 25-man. For familiarization purpose, we started forming 10-mans to practice the mechanics of fights like council and Al'Akir. Al'Akir went down in under one raid night, and another thread lists it as one of the higher-end fights for difficulty in 10-man. I just find this a bit surprising as even some of the easier kills we've gotten such as Mal or Halfus took between two or three raid nights.

[michelf]

the thing with Al'akir is that out of all of the tier 11 bosses, he is the one that is a hell of a lot easier on 10man. but having done both 25man hc and now being 5/13 on 10man i would say that its a bit mixed on the difficulty. some are harder on 25 and some are easier. valiona and theralion and conlaive are 2 that i can think of that are harder on 10man due to the mechanics of the fight that require a horrendously strict raid setup to do the fight successfully

[Recid]

I think the main issue is that its a lot harder to find 25 people to play near perfect than it is to find 10 people to play near perfect. There is a lot less room for error in 10 mans but it's just plain easier to get your raid to be all very good players. There are some fights that I have always thought would be easier in a 10 man setting though, two of which are H Alakir and H Council. Seems P1 Alakir and P1/P3 Council would be fairly hectic on 25man.

[elitistniceguy]

the thing with Al'akir is that out of all of the tier 11 bosses, he is the one that is a hell of a lot easier on 10man. but having done both 25man hc and now being 5/13 on 10man i would say that its a bit mixed on the difficulty. some are harder on 25 and some are easier. valiona and theralion and conlaive are 2 that i can think of that are harder on 10man due to the mechanics of the fight that require a horrendously strict raid setup to do the fight successfully

Horrendously strict in what sense? I'm not familiar with the conclave setup or strat, but I assume it still just requires one kiter and a strong burster for Nezir's shield. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Deleted]

Al'Akir is easier on 10m yes, but that'd be the only fight. The rest are pretty even, or easier on 25m (imo).

[zakayron]

It is, in general, harder because BLizzard is terrible at math (hurr durr Maloriak Adds...)

[Resentful]

Yes 10 man's are usually harder with the exception of Al'akir. I thought most would agree but apparently most of us 25'ers don't?

Opinion's are there though so think what you like

[Deleted]

As far as im aware the reason Al'akir is easier on 10 man is due to the fact that there are less people in the raid so more room to move about the platform. Same could be said for similier fights I guess.

[elitistniceguy]

I think the main issue is that its a lot harder to find 25 people to play near perfect than it is to find 10 people to play near perfect. There is a lot less room for error in 10 mans but it's just plain easier to get your raid to be all very good players. There are some fights that I have always thought would be easier in a 10 man setting though, two of which are H Alakir and H Council. Seems P1 Alakir and P1/P3 Council would be fairly hectic on 25man.

We get out of P1 with usually no casualties unless something silly happens. Kinda helps that we have a ton of lifegrips though. I think P3 is the real kicker.

[godofslack]

Well, Sinestra being nigh unkillable on 10 man until 4.1 made 10 mans invariably harder. With the various changes, 10 man is still harder but, not by the margin present before. 10 man Al'akir is easy compared to every other late boss on any difficulty. I simple terms of mechanics, he's about as hard as Magmaw HM, so not so difficult.

[Deleted]

I think the main issue is that its a lot harder to find 25 people to play near perfect than it is to find 10 people to play near perfect. There is a lot less room for error in 10 mans but it's just plain easier to get your raid to be all very good players. There are some fights that I have always thought would be easier in a 10 man setting though, two of which are H Alakir and H Council. Seems P1 Alakir and P1/P3 Council would be fairly hectic on 25man.

On the other hand, if you have one baddie in 10m hc you're gonna feel it alot. If you have 3 baddies in 25m hc, you will barely notice it, unless all they do is instantly die the first thing they do on a fight.

Basicly, in 25 you don't need to play near perfect, where as in 10 you almost have to. At least, that's the impression I've got from trying most bosses on both modes.

[Video Games]

10 was only hard because of bugs. Nobody actually knows because all the evidence is anecdotal.

[Sgtsparkles]

Going through 10 mans initially then joining a 25 man guild then quitting and restarting 10 mans just now, my opinion on the matter is shifty. 10 mans, especially hard modes, were so poorly tuned on release they were almost broken. Going from that to 25 mans I actually laughed after my first heroic raiding night. They were so much ridiculously easier (I'm a healer, and this was post nerf mana tide, that was 450% of your current spirit) I was literally swimming in mana with some blues on, I couldn't spend it all if I wanted to. Some fights, I had to dish out flash of lights just to keep tide from throwing my mana bar into 100%. During the course of my stay in 25's there were tons and tons of fixes to 10 mans and I never tried them at that time. Eventually I quit, and as I said, I'm re starting for firelands and I'm doing 10 mans.

That brings me to the crux of the matter, I truthfully believe they are equal at this point in time. Healing is slightly more hectic, but it isn't a noticeable difficulty leap if you were already a good healer. With Blizzard exclusively testing 10 mans on the PTR, and mana tide being nerfed, I have faith they will continue to be similar in difficulty.

TL;DR - They're about the same right now. Al'Akir is an exception if your guild is full of goons who start p1 with 25 people.

P.S.: Al'Akir is a piece of shit fight anyways.

[arden714]

This is an actual question. I'm in a rather progressed guild, 11/13 HM for 25-man. For familiarization purpose, we started forming 10-mans to practice the mechanics of fights like council and Al'Akir. Al'Akir went down in under one raid night, and another thread lists it as one of the higher-end fights for difficulty in 10-man. I just find this a bit surprising as even some of the easier kills we've gotten such as Mal or Halfus took between two or three raid nights.

Almost all the 10 man encounters are more difficult on 10 man for normal and heroic modes. It has been this way since Cata launched

[mindgame2552]

I started in a 25 man raid group and then left after some issues with the group and joined a 10 man group. In my opinion we were downing things way easier in the 25 man group even though I felt like the 10 man group had better players. That's my 2 cents.

[ShaanuJaanu]

10m HMs are cakewalk if you are going from a 25m guild on any given fight since the patch; the reason is you are already familiar with dealing with more adds/less space/more dmg already.

But it is true that if you have bad player in 10m..you will feel the difference more in 10m HM than in 25m HM.

[Morist]

Horrendously strict in what sense? I'm not familiar with the conclave setup or strat, but I assume it still just requires one kiter and a strong burster for Nezir's shield. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The shield is notoriously difficult to burst down on 10. For the dragons, soaking meteors are a big hassle, I forget why, and some other crap. Its definitely a lot harder on 10 man though, my guild has done both.

But basically, what everyone else said. Some fights mechanics are easier, some are harder. There is a lot less room for error in a 10 man raid, but it's also a lot easier to find 10 good players. Overall, I'd say 10 man progression is easier, judging from the pace 10m and 25m guild progress, ignoring the exceptionally good though I wouldn't care to pick whether its because the mechanics are easier or because of the ease of finding fewer good players.
The top 10 man guild on my server is 9/13, the top 25 man guild is 6/13, and its not like the 10 man guild players are noticeably better or another.

[Cryless]

Short Answer = No!
Long Answer = Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[elitistniceguy]

As for consequence for mistakes, wouldn't you agree it's much easier to make a mistake in a 25-man due to clutter and intensity? Again, I only have Al'Akir as a reference to this. But even as for one person holding a much higher weight, we got out of P2 numerous times with one person down at the beginning of it. To be fair, the kill didn't actually occur until all 10 of us were alive, but the phase 3 wipes with just 9 of us were just stupid mistakes like not moving fast enough out of clouds.

[deepfire]

25 mans are generally harder to form and manage, but can often suppress the mistake of one or two raid members behind the execution of 23 others.

10 mans are easier to form and manage, but often encounter gearing issues at early stages of progression and usually cant withstand any raid member failing.

In terms over overall difficulty of boss mechanics, the two differ drastically (25H Al'Akir was insane, while 10 Nefa was a pain coordinating 3 reliable interrupts) so its hard to compare. id say lager numbers show up in 25 man, but greater execution is required for 10.