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  1. #1

    How To Make a Useful "Why are we wiping on this boss?" Thread

    We all know that 80% of the threads here are "Hi, my guild keeps wiping on X fight, help us please" posts that are here to get input from other players that can help you down the boss. However, sometimes it can take up to 50 posts just for the participating posters to get some kind of help across, which could take days. I'd like to create an environment where questions and problems about bosses can be solved in a matter of hours with fewer than 20 posts instead of taking 3 days and 100 posts. To help make this climate, I've come up with a few suggestions that will infinitely improve the experience of sharing our knowledge about boss fights in the form of a step-by-step way to efficiently get help.

    Please note that the following are guidelines to help us help you. The more you give, the more we can help, and vice versa. Leaving out any of these key pieces of information may lower our chances of helping you get your phat lewtz.

    The Original Post

    1. What boss are you having trouble on? Obviously this is the most important question, and thus it is very important to be exact. The boss, PLUS whether this is a 10 normal, 10 heroic, 25 normal, or 25 heroic boss you are working on. Sometimes it can take up to 10 posts just to get this across when it is almost always vital to the strategy.

    2. What's your raid composition normally like? This could create problems or open opportunities for certain fights.

    3. How long have you been working on this fight? Sometimes it's just a matter of getting more reps so your raid can get better at it, but if it's literally 100 wipes on a fight, there's probably a strategic or player flaw in your raid.

    4. What phase of the fight are you wiping at?
    4b. Is this just into the phase, near the middle of it, or almost at the end? This could be a clue as to if you're having problems with a transition, longevity in a phase, or just nailing the main mechanics of it.

    5. What are people dying to? This is the second most important question besides the boss you are on. Sometimes a solution can be given even without any other information except the boss and the mechanic that's killing people. Do not make a thread asking why your raid is wiping and ask for help without first telling us what people are dying to.

    6. What have you tried already to fix #5? The fastest way to get help is to head off anything redundant and obvious that you've already thought of and tried.

    7. Do you have a World of Logs (or any other logging program/site) report for your raid? This is the single best way to help narrow down individuals that might be causing your raid problems or uncover something that even you might not have considered. It is highly recommended that you run logs for your own analysis even if you don't want to share them with us.


    Replying to Suggestions

    1. Be polite. I shouldn't have to say this, but people are much more likely to help you out if you're not walking all over them.

    2. Make sure someone understands what you said in your OP before seriously considering their suggestion. Sometimes a misunderstanding can make a wasted post.

    3. Don't take stuff personally. If someone points out that your best friend's dps rotation is completely wrong judging by WoL, they're probably just trying to help. Same thing if someone audits one of your raider's characters on the armory and notices a bad spec or gear choice. (Courtesy of Tamerlane2)


    Addendum: Responding to a thread with help (for posters other than the OP)

    1. Again, be polite. There's no need for personal insults, we're all here to help each other.

    2. Don't say how easy the fight was for you, shrug, and walk away. Try to understand the problem from the raid's or the OP's point of view and help them nail down exactly how to fix their problem(s).

    3. Please actually have some experience on the boss. I know this may seem obvious, but most fights can't really be talked about without even giving it a few pulls. You can still give input on certain people not performing as they should, but try not to make strategic suggestions unless you've tried it yourself.

    4. Pointing out an issue with a raid composition can be useful, but when giving a suggestion on a certain class/role makeup that would be better, try to also include feedback on how the OP might make it work with their current comp.

    That's really all I can think of for now. Of course, the format is yours to play with. These ideas don't have to be bullet-pointed in your post, but try to make sure that they are included. Any further suggestions are gladly welcome. Let's hope that the MMO-Champ R&D forum can grow into a helpful community for all raiding issues.
    Last edited by Whoopsa; 2011-05-23 at 10:36 PM.

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral Dutchmagoz's Avatar
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    7. Show us logs of your raid so we can see what happened to every player, who took unnecesary damage, who didn't move, who failed to interrupt, etc.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchmagoz View Post
    7. Show us logs of your raid so we can see what happened to every player, who took unnecesary damage, who didn't move, who failed to interrupt, etc.
    The only reason I didn't include that as mandatory in the OP is that not every guild even records logs. They're helpful, yes, but I was trying to limit it to only things that any raider that's paying attention has access too, whether they're hardcore, casual, 10 man, 25 man, bad, good, new, vet, and everything inbetween.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Good idea Whoopsa and you certainly make a good point.

    Vote for sticky?

  5. #5
    That'd be nice, seeing as this thread is only useful while it's on the first page.

  6. #6
    Agreed, voting sticky.

  7. #7
    When replying to requests for help, avoid unconstructive replies.

    1) Comments on how easy you found the boss aren't helpful at all. If it was easy for them, they wouldn't be asking for help.
    2) Don't just suggest they get recruit better players or gkick bad ones. That may not be possible or desirable for every guild, and its only something the officers can do anyway.
    2b) Try not to suggest radical alterations to their raidcomp, *if* they've already made it clear what classes they have access to.

    And to those looking for help
    1) Don't take stuff personally. If someone points out that your best friend's dps rotation is completely wrong judging by WoL, they're probably just trying to help. Same thing if someone audits one of your raider's characters on the armory and notices a bad spec or gear choice.
    2) Sometimes it won't be possible to help you if you're struggling with overall dps or healing if you don't provide logs. For dps analysis, atleast try to take note of what dps each of your guys are doing on the boss you're struggling with, and on a simple farm boss like Chimaeron or VoA. That'll tell people whether your dps is bad generally, or just bad because they haven't gotten comfortable with the fight yet.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    And to those looking for help
    1) Don't take stuff personally. If someone points out that your best friend's dps rotation is completely wrong judging by WoL, they're probably just trying to help. Same thing if someone audits one of your raider's characters on the armory and notices a bad spec or gear choice.
    Adding this.

  9. #9
    Field Marshal
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    Would be great to sticky this

  10. #10
    vote for sticky

    Awesome avatar by Resentful

  11. #11
    Back up to the front we go. I'm still willing to add any suggestions if anyone's got any more.
    Alt-aholics Anonymous member since 2005.

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  12. #12
    Fluffy Kitten eternalwhitemoon's Avatar
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    Of course you can add anything else that you think is useful, especially logs if you have them.
    I think this should be rephrased. Logs are so super-important. I realize that not every guild has logs so you don't ask that they be required, but this almost downplays the importance of logs. Add something like "Logs are a great way to narrow down exactly what is happening, when, and to whom, so if you have these please add them to your OP. They will save your respondents a lot of time trying to guess at what went wrong."

    Edit: Also, I think Tamerlane is right and you need a subsection for respondents. You could label it "Responding to the Post" or something like that.
    Last edited by eternalwhitemoon; 2011-05-23 at 05:52 PM.

  13. #13
    +1 to this, great idea! Hopefully assist everyone with progression

  14. #14
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Great post, but I disagree about you leaving off the logs suggestion. You should add it on there as mandatory. Not every guild takes logs, but a guild easily could and, if they're having trouble, should. It's not like it's something especially difficult to do; any raid member can do it.

    Unless the failure is an implementation of a genuinely all-around-bad strategy that we can see immediately is the problem -- and this is seldom the case -- a log will help diagnose problems more than anything else.

    Put it on the master list. Logs are extremely important in these scenarios.
    Last edited by Tziva; 2011-05-23 at 08:59 PM.
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  15. #15
    Bump for sticky vote.
    Ecce homo ergo elk

  16. #16
    Added a section for posters other than the OP that would be responding.

    I also decided to add the question about logs as the very last item in the OP's checklist, as they are very important and useful, but also less available than the other items of importance. Remember that this is supposed to be about helping people. I won't say that no one can help them without posting logs and I'm not trying to create a mandatory format to make these kinds of request threads with, but logs are a kind of add-on in the sense that the game doesn't come with them, and some people choose not to use them. While it may make the task of asking for help more difficult, I'm not going to tell someone that we can't help them until they come back with logs.
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  17. #17
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    Bump for the sticky

  18. #18
    Fluffy Kitten Aciaedius's Avatar
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    Stickied on request and decision that it was worth it.
    PvE:er to the bone. Plays a druid. Also plays DotA and a whole bunch of other stuff. Listens to mostly everything.
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  19. #19
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopsa View Post
    Added a section for posters other than the OP that would be responding.

    I also decided to add the question about logs as the very last item in the OP's checklist, as they are very important and useful, but also less available than the other items of importance. Remember that this is supposed to be about helping people. I won't say that no one can help them without posting logs and I'm not trying to create a mandatory format to make these kinds of request threads with, but logs are a kind of add-on in the sense that the game doesn't come with them, and some people choose not to use them. While it may make the task of asking for help more difficult, I'm not going to tell someone that we can't help them until they come back with logs.
    Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that you should put "logs or GTFO" but a logs is really THE most important tool we can use to help troubleshoot problems. It could be as simple as saying, "posting logs can drastically increase the likelihood that people can help pinpoint your problem. Please be aware that if you post without them, people may not be able to discern the cause of your issues." This implies people are free to post without them, but emphasises how important and useful they can be.

    It's good advice, not just because it will help them get help here when they post these kinds of threads, but also because it encourages guilds who are having trouble to run a combat log, which is a valuable tool even if they aren't asking on the forums for help. Even guilds who don't feel a need to run them daily can really find them to be an asset if they run them on progression nights or when they are facing roadblocks.

    (I'm not sure what you mean by "less available." Any raid member can run a combat log; you don't need to be raid leader/assistant and you don't need any addons to do so. It's built into the game. After that, you just upload it to any one of the many websites that will process it into readable results -- no different than uploading a screenshot to an image hosting website.)

    I think your guide is great and should be stickied, so please don't take this as a critique. I just think that people making the logs suggestion are offering probably the best input they could possibly offer. Thanks for listening to them.
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  20. #20
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    @ Tziva
    As a semi-hardcore 10man heroic raider i agree that logs are one of the best tools to use post raids, however it's highly unlikely that people searching for help is going to go through all the data WoL gives not to mention they probablly won't know how to use it properly.
    So if people just randomly start to throw in WoL data and ask for help those of us who's going to pop into this thread regulary will just be doing their job with WoL and figuring out what's wrong instead of teaching them to use a tool that will help them.
    I'm in for helping people learn what's going wrong, I'm not in for figuring it out for them. WoL is a grat tool, but not many casuals will use it because it's a bloody mess if you don't know what to do with it.

    We should rather just set up a post or OP post a quick tutorial on how to read WoL if anything.
    IMO the people looking for help on MMO-Champion are normal + 1-2 heroic bosses down in progression and can't figure out why they're wiping after seeing countless guides on youtube from Learntoraid and tankspot etc.. You hardly learn from watching a video, knowing the mechanics and when they happen is half the fight. If you don't know how to mitigate or stop X thing to happen you might aswell play blind.

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