Can we compare ret dps to other specs dps?

[Deleted]

Question came into mind some weeks ago when I decided to give ret/pve a chance.
The first conclussions from the dummy results were awful ( just "normal" 355 ilvl) but there were no reasons to worry since....I am noob,so i decided to do my homework and learn rotations,stat priorities,build,glyphs,addons,etc... from EJ.
Then I came back to the dummy: results werent much better (most of EJ hints were so obvious I was actually doing it that way).
Well!!! No need to worry yet...You are still a noob ret so I downloaded Clcret for an optimal(or suboptimal) rotations and againg....
numbers werent shining.
No matter what I do my hunter(MM) or my warrior (Fury) with identical ilvl got 4-5k dps more without a sweat so I say to myself:
A) Maybe group buffs escales ret dps better than other specs.
B) Maybe this controlled scenario(dummy) with no pushback,moving,etc... its not the best performance test(i got to cast with the hunter,etc..)
So I got my ass on heroics and after some of them the conclusion is the same:I cant reach my hunter/warr dps by 4-5k dps.

And the question is why? To simplify some options:
A) Youre a noob ret (very likely lol).Youre not getting 100% performance so keep learning and practicing.
B) Youre a good hunter/warr (very unlikely)
C) This is how it works.Abandon every hope of getting that dps with ret on the same ilvl.
D) None of the above.Get your head out of your ass and realize that ....<Insert paragraph>
E) Dont worry.We paladins make so much light from skills that we are still needed in raids/groups for ambiental ilumination.

Salutes!

[zealous]

1. Ret scales very well with weapon damage. You may have 355 ilvl but a 346 weapon, which is a serious gimp to our dps.

2. We scale well with group buffs.

3. Heroics suck for testing dps in many many ways and Ret isnt' the best spec to flex recount parses in a 5 man.

4. We depend heavily on trinkets. If yours suck, that may be one of the issues.

5. Make sure you are using the latest CLCRet, there are some old links if you're dling through google.

6. Make sure to use cooldowns correctly, they affect our dps much more than one would imagine, incorrect usage and incorrect priorities during cooldowns may also gimp your dps hard.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

some ppl just dont know how to play ret paladins, when i quitted wow two months ago, i remember doing 14k dps in raids with my ret paladin 350ilvl, and in hcs always over 20k dps in boss fights...

[zealous]

some ppl just dont know how to play ret paladins, when i quitted wow two months ago, i remember doing 14k dps in raids with my ret paladin 350ilvl, and in hcs always over 20k dps in boss fights...

And how is this helpful? Quit the e-peen flashing.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

And how is this helpful? Quit the e-peen flashing.

last i checked i could post whatever i wanted as long as i wasnt offending anybody

[Deleted]

So the answer is yes...we can compare.That gives me a hope of light.
To add more data:

1.Weapon is Zin'rhok.
4.Trinkets are the Alchemist Stone and the Darkmoon Card.No use on them.
5.I got the latest, i have verified(19 May I think)
6.Well I am making EJ rotation during BtOK -Zealotry - AW.If thats the optimal(wich I dont know) im pretty sure thats what Im doing.

Thanks for responses!!!

[zealous]

last i checked i could post whatever i wanted as long as i wasnt offending anybody

Actually you can get infracted just for posting non-constructive or disruptive stuff. I should know.

But what you're doing is just a bit douchey. You come to a thread where a person is asking for help in a very polite and humble manner and all you say is "people don't know how to play, I did 20k dps."

Nobody will punish you for it of course.

[Deleted]

Mate I don't mind offending you, but answer "A" is the right one. You're doin it wrong.

Apart the hit/expertise cap and a proper rotation, Ret dps have two dramatical points:

- The weapon. A ret with a 359 weapon and 333 rest of the gear do more dps than a full 359 with a 333 weapon. If you're unlucky in raid, do a couple of weeks of arenas and grab the sword.
- With the introduction of the Holy Power our gameplay has changed alot, especially on CDs. Do a macro that cast both GoAK and Avenging Wrath, remember to use it everytime you start a fight AFTER the first Inquisition, Hammer of Wrath got priority under AW. When the effect is gone is time for Zealotry, CS->TW till the effect fade. Rinse and repeat every 2 minuts and your DPS will be better 100%.

Oh, don't forget to reforge everything into Mastery, of course.

[Deleted]

I think the key is just to practice. Retribution is quite proc-reliant, and you can have streaks of incredibly bad luck, just as you can have streaks of insanely good luck. And like someone else here mentioned, retribution is very CD reliant. Make sure you line them up correctly, and use them every time they're off CD. The first 30-40 seconds of a fight are critical to ret dps. With that comes the danger of overaggroing of course. But just to make the point, at the start of a normal raid boss I can somtimes push up to 40k dps, while my overall for the whole fight would be more in the 25-26k range.

As for the competitiveness of ret, well, we're not at the top of the heap, but if you practice, get a feel for the procs etc. and time your CDs right, you can definitely compete with any other class on most fights.

[zealous]

So the answer is yes...we can compare.That gives me a hope of light.
To add more data:

1.Weapon is Zin'rhok.
4.Trinkets are the Alchemist Stone and the Darkmoon Card.No use on them.
5.I got the latest, i have verified(19 May I think)
6.Well I am making EJ rotation during BtOK -Zealotry - AW.If thats the optimal(wich I dont know) im pretty sure thats what Im doing.

Thanks for responses!!!

1. Lucky you =) I farmed the damn thing, never got it. Weapon's not the issue then.

2. Trinkets are both decent for starting out, DMC will prolly last a bit more than Alch Stone.

3. You should pop GoAK at the start of the fight and pop AW+Zeal once you have some stacks from it. Don't pop them all at the same time.

4. In your rotation, the "free" Holy Power finishers from Divine Purpose can be a bit tricky, since you'll be tempted to always spam the finisher once you get the proc. What you should do is at 3 HP go ahead and use the free finisher, if you're at 1 or 2 HP do a CS and then use the free finisher.

Might also be a gearing/gemming/glyph issue. Can't say w/o knowing that too.

---------- Post added 2011-05-23 at 11:52 AM ----------

Mate I don't mind offending you, but answer "A" is the right one. You're doin it wrong.

Apart the hit/expertise cap and a proper rotation, Ret dps have two dramatical points:

- The weapon. A ret with a 359 weapon and 333 rest of the gear do more dps than a full 359 with a 333 weapon. If you're unlucky in raid, do a couple of weeks of arenas and grab the sword.
- With the introduction of the Holy Power our gameplay has changed alot, especially on CDs. Do a macro that cast both GoAK and Avenging Wrath, remember to use it everytime you start a fight AFTER the first Inquisition, Hammer of Wrath got priority under AW. When the effect is gone is time for Zealotry, CS->TW till the effect fade. Rinse and repeat every 2 minuts and your DPS will be better 100%.

Oh, don't forget to reforge everything into Mastery, of course.

He already said he has a 359 weapon. And he said he's using the EJ priority system, so I think he knows how to deal with HP.

At a certain point crit equals or even outperforms mastery, but at his ilvl, probably yes - mastery is king.

Glyphs are also an issue, I've seen some paladins drop SoT for example when they're like 1-2 expertise over cap because of it. I think going even 4-5 expertise over cap is still fine and you should keep the glyph (don't remember the exact number atm so don't take my word for it).

[Deleted]

nooo you do not use goak the same second as wings+zealot.

you pop goak then 15 seconds later you pop wings+zealot as this means for the full duration of wings you hve 20 stacks of goak.

same with trinkets specialy any the proc + stre as you want the trinkets full duration to be done at +20% stre instead of having 10 secs of it at 1-20 and only 10 at the full 20.

the glyph of expertise will grant you a dps gain until it is giving you less than 4 expertise.

reforge all Haste into -> Mastery -> crit
this is after the hit cap,

when chosing reforge for hit cap example

item 1 has mastery haste
item 2 has crit haste

reforge item 1 into hit first as item 2 you can regorge the haste into mastery but you can't in item 1.

hit is better than expertise as hit effects more things than expertise will,
hit effects aow+judge+how but expertise does not. and there is nothing that expertise effects that hit doesn't.

talents can also play a part. do you have some utility spots that while do not help you in a patwerk fight will help enormously in geting you back to dpsing faster when you are removed or slowed from the boss eg one point in Acts of Sarcifice so you can cleanse a slow. and maybe you think eye for an eye is a pvp talent? well not anymore as it's a % base of ALL attacks, it used to be jsut crits, you can now bounce that 100k spell aoe that the boss did into a 30k eye for an eye hit that damadges the boss.

[Malthanis]

last i checked i could post whatever i wanted as long as i wasnt offending anybody

I suggest that you read through the FAQ again.

Nobody will punish you for it of course.

Zealous, you wound me!

Glyphs are also an issue, I've seen some paladins drop SoT for example when they're like 1-2 expertise over cap because of it. I think going even 4-5 expertise over cap is still fine and you should keep the glyph (don't remember the exact number atm so don't take my word for it).

With the number of encounters that require you to stand in front of the boss, the extra expertise isn't entirely useless either.

[Floross]

We shine more in raids ( 25 more so because of buffs ) . I'd say assuming equal skill and gear we can't beat hunter and warr , but we're damn close. So yeah , we can def compare ^_^. ( Tips have already been provided by previous posters ).

[zealous]

Zealous, you wound me!

It wasn't me, it was the one-armed man!

[Malthanis]

It wasn't me, it was the one-armed man!

Is that commentary on Ret's DPS status as of now, or just a joke?


@Primi:
Test dummy practice is really only practical for getting used to the rotation. Since we scale so ridiculously well with raid buffs, it'll be hard to get a good idea as to where your DPS will stand in a raid.

The best use of the dummy for DPS testing, however, is to see how much your DPS improves whenever you respec or change gear. Since the target is the same, you don't have to worry about enemy-based variables (facing, armor value, resists, etc.). So if your DPS goes up by 10% on the dummy after some kind of gear, spec, or rotation change, you can assume that you'll have a DPS increase in raids (mileage may vary, depending on movement in the fight).

[Kisko]

And the question is why? To simplify some options:
A) Youre a noob ret (very likely lol).Youre not getting 100% performance so keep learning and practicing.
B) Youre a good hunter/warr (very unlikely)
C) This is how it works.Abandon every hope of getting that dps with ret on the same ilvl.
D) None of the above.Get your head out of your ass and realize that ....<Insert paragraph>
E) Dont worry.We paladins make so much light from skills that we are still needed in raids/groups for ambiental ilumination.

A + C

Some facts:

1. Ret is NOT an easy spec to master and play at 100%.
2. You will NEVER outdps good warrior with it, let alone hunter.
3. Ret currently have NO unique raid buffs, since they buffed Arcane.

Some reality:

There is one spot, at best, for a ret in 25 man (none at 10m) and you will have to fight for it with your every breath, not just because of other rets, but because every warrior with half of brain will do 2k more and you simply have no reason to be in a raid.

Bottom line: it's bad time to be Ret, if you can, play something else.

[Chaosblade]

I gotta say, warriors are really overpowered compared to ret right now. Good arms warriors even blow fury out of the water. There was someone on my server who is an arms warrior who did 25k sustained on chogall 10N with only 359 wep and 359 gear (only 2 piece tier bonus)...I could not even dream about doing that much unless I had nearly full heroic gear. It's just not possible as the best ret record in the world on 25H has only done like, 26-27k on it (flash from vodka)

[Deleted]

The problem with target dummies is that you are mostly alone when you try them, and you'll only have your own buffs.

A big part of ret's damage rely on melee damage, another big part relies on spell damage. Ret needs buffs in both areas to do decent dps, and scale immensly with those buffs.

You might do 16k on a dummy, where in a raid with all needed buffs (+physical damage, +spell damage, etc), maybe 6k+ more.

All in all, testing on dummys is not a good way for a ret to check out how well he does damage wise. They might be good in order for you to get used to the prio system, but not for anything else. This applies to most classes tho.

But a warrior will do much better on dummys than a ret, simply because a warrior does not need spell damage buffs. (warlocks curse of elements for example). I don't know much about hunters tho.

[Shelly]

Short answer is yes, we're definitely lagging behind. Ret has taken quite a few lumps for survivability and utility all without gaining much in the way of increased dps in return.

That said, we're not bad.

Now we'll have to wait for 4.2, but honestly very few guilds right now are really pushing content. Most I'd say are at a situation where the only normal bosses they have left are cho'gall and nef. In this situation Ret is maybe not the top of the heap, but neither is it at the bottom or a wasted raid spot.

Really at this level right now we're not dealing with OMFG! I'm so awesome I only take ubber dps and if you aren't above 25K you should go DIAF!

Instead we're at a "OK, everyone above 10? Good, most folks pushing upwards of 15? Excellent!" type of situation, with a larger buffer if your heals and tanks are awesome.

That said there are still a lot of dps checks, the ones that comes most to mind to me are Maloriak and Chimareon and Council and to a pretty good extent Nef. Where Mal and Chim are all about pouring out a ton of dps (AoE on adds for Mal) and just fast as possible on Chim, and then Council and Nef are all about dps control where you need to know when to stop dots.

[Ciah]

At a still somewhat high level, Ret really is bottom of the heap as far as "viable" straight dps specs go (i.e. not lol subtlety). I feel so useless on Sinestra, especially phase 3, but what are you going to do?

At a point where you are still working on reg mode bosses, anything goes. You probably have the dps and gear to do it already.
Don't despair being Ret in this kind of casual raid. In this case you can differentiate yourself by being a superior player, knowing the mechanics, not standing in fire, etc. Your raid will have a spot for you if you are not bad.