Nefarian - different way to kill?

[Jazzlin]

yesterday our guild was the first time on the way to kill nefarian normal mode 10
We tried the tactic that everbody fokus on Onyxia until she dies. the onyxia tank (pala) also have the adds and our warri tank have nefarian..

after the kill of onyxia everybody goes to the platforms and so on.

We were three or four times in p3 but than we died because of the crackles (?) - the 10% damage of nef.

We tried it this way because the hunter of us had killed nef this way. my question, i am heal in the raid and have a lot of problems to heal the onyxia/add tank, make this tactic sense?
In my opinion its very hard to heal .. in P2 and p3 i need a lot of mana but with this tactic also in p1 because of the damage of the adds on the tank..

Out setup was:
Warri tank
pala tank
drood heal (me)
Shaman heal
pala heal
mage
hunter
DK
rogue
warlock

We were in p3, but it was quite hard to heal without mana -.-
any Tips/tricks?

Sorry my englisch is not the best, hope everbody understand what i want

[vizzle]

There is really no reason to do this on normal mode, it just makes p3 longer. And since this is a progression fight to you guys, the add tank might not be so good yet in p3 at kiting the adds so you don't want a really long p3.

On normal the adds don't hit very had so you can just have your DK go blood presence and tank the adds for a while, and you can bring Nef to 70% before killing Onyxia.

If you guys really want to do it this way, but my tip is that you shouldn't and you should just do it normally, then the Onyxia tank has to pop all of his CDs while he's tanking the skeletons + Onyxia.

Raid healing in p3 isn't very bad, if the raid is stacked up then you can just let your AoE healing, Healing Rain, Holy Radiance, Wild Growth, just heal the raid and then you can focus on the tanks. It will take practice, healing it will get easier the more you practice, because the add tank will get better at kiting and you will learn the fight more and won't have to use your more expensive heals as often.

[siver]

wait who kites the adds in part 1?

[Deleted]

well if you have everybody on ony untull she dies you won't have crackels in phase 1, you want to aim for 2 crackels in phase 1, 2 in phase 2 and the rest in phase 3
hit ony untill she is at about 30 % then hit nef with all dps (excluding the one that is kiting) untill you have had 2 crackels and then kill ony
Also you have 1 ony tank 1 nef tank and a dps kiting the adds mage or hunter should be able to do that, or a frost dk even better
Phase 2 is all about surviving any damage reduction cd's ppl have are very usefull here.
if you enter phase 3 with most ppl at or above 75% then phase 3 is a walk in the park.
and as a healer you should know when to use your mana cd's (don't use it when you are OOM then it is to late)

I hope this helps a bit

[Robofish]

What the OP is saying is the Ony tank garbs the adds in P1 also.

I can't add too much to this topic, but we got our first kill last week doing the tactic vizzle described and it worked fine. (as a guild we were actually dissapointed with the fight, i found there was no sense of achievment after downing him, as opposed to Al'Akir and Chogie.)

Edit: 2 crackles in P2 isn't necassary, we did not do this.

[Jazzlin]

wait who kites the adds in part 1?

Noone, that is our problem xD
The onyxia tank has the adds

[Deleted]

tbh if your paladin tank is taking onyxia AND the adds at the same time in p1 i don't even see how you menage to pass that phase
onyxia's WILL do the breath and it WILL reset the adds all the time, making them hit harder and harder and harder, this, with crackles in p1 and some random tail whip when onyxia is turnet for the electic thing will probably get your tank dead really fast

tbh i have HUGE doubts about your hunter killing nefarian this way, and even if it did it was a HUGE boost from anyone who took him in

as they said already, tell your dk to go blood presence, if he's frost he can just kite by himself, otherwise get the hunter to drops traps and use ring of frost/frost nova etc... until the adds finish their energy

[Nillinio]

There is no kiter, the Ony Tank picks up the Adds and tanks them till p2 starts.

[Christan]

On normal the adds don't hit very had so you can just have your DK go blood presence and tank the adds for a while, and you can bring Nef to 70% before killing Onyxia.

fight starts - dps on ony, DK dps in blood picking up adds(ohh he WILL take damage) ring of frost and holy pala sitting near blood dk for the aoe stun is nice, should be used when adds get to 50- energy

but a tad before that nef lands, all dps but 1 and ony tank head to nef, bring him to 75% or so, ony gets energy from crackles,
nef should hit 75% or so before ony reaches 85 energy, ALL dps switch to ony, blow her up,
everyone and 1 interrupter to each platform.

when your platform add is dead you can pewpew nef flying around a little, get him as close to 70% but not actually crackling as you can, soon as everyone is stacked on the ground again push nef over to crackle,

now... the part that helped our raid, albeit it is a small thing,

have nef facing the adds on the ground at the start of P3, first breath will ensure all the adds are up, and ony tank can pick them all up

now also, 2-3 seconds before next shadowflame is when OT needs to start moving, no slows on adds either.
this ensures all adds are moving as the flame lands, and makes sure none of them get hit.

also the flame balls come faster and faster, starting off at 10s a cast... get ready for the time shifts on how quick he casts.

also move past his head and tail a bit faster, since tail stuns...and adds hit like trucks, and head does breaths which will refill the energy and make adds hit like mack trucks.
P3 is easy to kite soon as you see it once.
P2 is all about the interrupts
P1 is all about turning ony at the right time(like if you notice tail lash coming up right as her sides glow, you know you ahve 2-3 seconds before she lights the room up, you can turn her a tad slower than normal and tail lash misses raid, also you can "hug" her, get right up inside her hit box, so jjust a little movement makes her turn fast.

---edit---

wait, ony tank taking adds??? of all the...
no, not that way.

[vizzle]

tbh if your paladin tank is taking onyxia AND the adds at the same time in p1 i don't even see how you menage to pass that phase
onyxia's WILL do the breath and it WILL reset the adds all the time, making them hit harder and harder and harder, this, with crackles in p1 and some random tail whip when onyxia is turnet for the electic thing will probably get your tank dead really fast

tbh i have HUGE doubts about your hunter killing nefarian this way, and even if it did it was a HUGE boost from anyone who took him in

as they said already, tell your dk to go blood presence, if he's frost he can just kite by himself, otherwise get the hunter to drops traps and use ring of frost/frost nova etc... until the adds finish their energy

It is a viable strategy actually, but people only do it on heroic 10man Nefarian because they don't have a good add kiter. Onyxia dies very fast with Bloodlust + all CDs popped and everyone focusing her down, you can take her down to 50% before all the adds are even spawned. Onyxia dies before the adds get too strong, and the adds won't attack you anymore in p2.

However, it is really not needed on normal mode and you should just do it normally.

[Breia]

from what I read you dont do any crackles in phase 1? It's very adviceably yo do 2 in phase 1 and as many as you can get off in phase 2, the more you do before phase 3, the easier it'll be for the add tank in phase 3.

As for the adds in phase 1, we used to have a feral dps offtank them (tho a plate dps will do the charm aswell).
Last night we went for another tac tho, since you have a hunter get him to offtank them with his pet and with the MD glyph. he can chain md the adds to the pet and it wasn't really that hard to keep it up.

As too kiting and getting though phase 3 flawless I can't help you with, as we are strugeling there ourselves

[Daetur]

Typically, the fewer Crackles you have to deal with in Phase 3, the better.

The way my raid does it (there are other strats, too, ours' certainly isn't the only one that works):

My raid composition:

Paladin tank
Death Knight tank
Paladin Healer
Shaman Healer
Druid Healer
Frost DK dps
Affliction Lock DPS
Shadow Priest DPS
Warrior DPS
Survival Hunter DPS

We put one or two dps on Onyxia, the rest on Nefarian. We get him to do 2 Crackles in P1 before killing Ony. Try to knock him to around 73-75% before P2. If your dps is really good, you can burn them/Ony fast enough to get 3 Crackles in P1 without her exploding, but it's not always possible for every raid. It certainly isn't for ours.

To deal with the P1 adds, we have our Frost Death Knight use Blood Presence and kite/tank the adds. Our Frost DK is specced into the [Chillblains] talent so that his Howling Blast will slow the adds. He can use a hunter trap to help with kiting. Also, we have our Holy Pally use Holy Wrath on the adds to stun them. A Frost DK can also stun them for a long time with Hungering Cold when their stacking damage buff starts to get high.

Phase 2, once two of the three adds are dead, we have ranged dps push Nef to 70% (or 60% if you can get 3 crackles in P1) and have the raid use personal damage reduction and self healing to take another Crackle. We then kill the last add and enter Phase 3.

This leaves us with only 6 Crackles to do in P3 (5 if you had the dps to push 3 in P1- we don't). Remember that you should not be slowing or stunning the adds in P3, because they need to stay out of the fire that will be chasing them. If your kiting tank keeps them out of the fire long enough, they will deactivate and lose their stacking damage buff. That's the key.
Also, raid damage is VERY light on normal, aside form Crackles, so the raid can usually sit for a few seconds while you focus on the tanks. We just drop a Healing Rain each Crackle on the stacked dps group, and it brings them to about 90% before we push the next Crackle.

[Jazzlin]

Okay you all are the opinion that we need a kiter?
Which is better - hunter or Deathknight?
I hope we try it again this way with kiter.

The crackles in p3 would not be a problem if i can save my mana in P1 -.-
because P2 it is a lot of dmg i mean and the crackles in p3 are the big problems - or is this wrong?

[Daetur]

Okay you all are the opinion that we need a kiter?
Which is better - hunter or Deathknight?
I hope we try it again this way with kiter.

The crackles in p3 would not be a problem if i can save my mana in P1 -.-
because P2 it is a lot of dmg i mean and the crackles in p3 are the big problems - or is this wrong?

I would have the DK kite if he is Frost specced. He will be able to go into Blood Presence and hold better threat on the adds. He can also take a hit much better than a hunter. Have him use a Frost Trap from the hunter and a Ring of Frost from the mage to help kite/tank the adds. The healing paladin can also stun the adds with Holy Wrath. This is how my raid handles the adds in P1.

The tank kiting the adds in P3 is usually where things go wrong. The heals on him need to be very good, especially around crackles, and he needs to be very good at keeping the adds out of fire. The crackles don't seem that bad for my raid, it's the damage on the tank kiting the add in P3 that is the biggest problem for us.

[Seriss]

Okay, pushing 2 electrocutes in P1 is what we usually do when doing 10-man with alts. Having the Ony tank also tank the adds is a bit meh. Rather have someone else kite them and have them die in a nice pile on the side. Stunning adds is a bit risky. You need to keep a close eye on the timer for shadow flame or else they'll be stunned inside a fire and won't go down.

That ought to take care of the mana problem somewhat. Who is healing what? Paladin, shamy, druid... Are you healing the Ony tank all by yourself? That's silly. Get help with tank healing

Have Mana Tide in P1 already. Somewhere between the first and second electrocute perhaps. There's a lot of time to reach the pillars, a lot of time to allow HoTs to tick and bring people back to full hp. Mana Tide should then be saved for P3 when everybody is in reach of it again. The shamy should not use it on his pillar. It's a waste. He needs to manage his mana.

I think that in our 10-mans, we did it similar to 25-man... Preferred healers for the kiter tank are healers with decent CDs. Paladin, priest preferably, though the other day, I (shamy) helped with the kite tank as well, but we didn't have an ideal setup anyway, so someone had to. Anyway... Maybe you'd like to have the paladin heal the kiter, the shamy on Nef's tank and you'd take care of the electrocutes and HoT the Nef tank. The shamy can put down a healing rain too if his mana allows. There really is so much time between the crackles that HoT's will do the job on their own. Also make sure that the shamy's healing stream totem affects all the people in his group. It won't do much for the kiters as the range just isn't enough. So have the shamy in a group that huddles in the middle, with the Nef tank in his group as well. The totem ticks for around 1.7 - 2k the lower someone drops. It helps. It also helps with resisting a bit of the crackle dmg if glyphed (every resto shamy should have it glyphed).

Remember that after everybody is brought to full hp after the 20% electrocute, you will no longer need to heal the raid. They'll still get the 10% electrocute, but as nobody except for the tanks should be getting any damage from that point on, they can sit there happily with 10% hp. So after having thrown HoTs on everyone at 20% to enable them to survive the 10% AoE, you should see if the kiter tank healer needs some help. I know most of our wipes happened at <20% hp because the adds became hard to handle and kiter tank and healer were out of cooldowns or something. So that's something to keep an eye on.

I hope some of my rambles are helpful. As there are no logs, it's hard to tell what exactly is going wrong aside from your mana bar being bone dry.

[Deleted]

1st electrocute - paladin raid bubble
2nd electrocute - warrior tank raid aoe last stnd
3rd electrocute - def cooldowns fo every tank
down

p3 only

[Keren]

Okay you all are the opinion that we need a kiter?
Which is better - hunter or Deathknight?
I hope we try it again this way with kiter.

The crackles in p3 would not be a problem if i can save my mana in P1 -.-
because P2 it is a lot of dmg i mean and the crackles in p3 are the big problems - or is this wrong?

In my grp our rogue gather the adds and kites / tanks them. our mage support with ring of frost and 1 frostnova.
2 crackle in p1
0-1 crackle in p2
the rest in p3

add tank in p3 should atleast reset the adds 2 times. 3 times is possible..
If he had problems with the timer, a dd can warn him 1 sec before. Main problem here is often the lack of experience.

[Deleted]

On our first kill we used to CC all the adds. Could be an option for you.

[Jazzlin]

Okay, pushing 2 electrocutes in P1 is what we usually do when doing 10-man with alts. Having the Ony tank also tank the adds is a bit meh. Rather have someone else kite them and have them die in a nice pile on the side. Stunning adds is a bit risky. You need to keep a close eye on the timer for shadow flame or else they'll be stunned inside a fire and won't go down.

That ought to take care of the mana problem somewhat. Who is healing what? Paladin, shamy, druid... Are you healing the Ony tank all by yourself? That's silly. Get help with tank healing

Have Mana Tide in P1 already. Somewhere between the first and second electrocute perhaps. There's a lot of time to reach the pillars, a lot of time to allow HoTs to tick and bring people back to full hp. Mana Tide should then be saved for P3 when everybody is in reach of it again. The shamy should not use it on his pillar. It's a waste. He needs to manage his mana.

I think that in our 10-mans, we did it similar to 25-man... Preferred healers for the kiter tank are healers with decent CDs. Paladin, priest preferably, though the other day, I (shamy) helped with the kite tank as well, but we didn't have an ideal setup anyway, so someone had to. Anyway... Maybe you'd like to have the paladin heal the kiter, the shamy on Nef's tank and you'd take care of the electrocutes and HoT the Nef tank. The shamy can put down a healing rain too if his mana allows. There really is so much time between the crackles that HoT's will do the job on their own. Also make sure that the shamy's healing stream totem affects all the people in his group. It won't do much for the kiters as the range just isn't enough. So have the shamy in a group that huddles in the middle, with the Nef tank in his group as well. The totem ticks for around 1.7 - 2k the lower someone drops. It helps. It also helps with resisting a bit of the crackle dmg if glyphed (every resto shamy should have it glyphed).

Remember that after everybody is brought to full hp after the 20% electrocute, you will no longer need to heal the raid. They'll still get the 10% electrocute, but as nobody except for the tanks should be getting any damage from that point on, they can sit there happily with 10% hp. So after having thrown HoTs on everyone at 20% to enable them to survive the 10% AoE, you should see if the kiter tank healer needs some help. I know most of our wipes happened at <20% hp because the adds became hard to handle and kiter tank and healer were out of cooldowns or something. So that's something to keep an eye on.

I hope some of my rambles are helpful. As there are no logs, it's hard to tell what exactly is going wrong aside from your mana bar being bone dry.

Thats very helpful - thanks a lot!

Who is healing what? Paladin, shamy, druid... Are you healing the Ony tank all by yourself? That's silly. Get help with tank healing

Our Pala heals Onyxia and Add Tank (=is a pala tank), the Shamy is healing the Nef Tank.
I am healing also the Onyxia tank because of the adds our ony Tank needs two heals. but i have a groupheal specc so it#s hard for me to heal with flashheals because after them i am oom -.-

we are now have a discussion about a kiter.
Our RL will have a look on videos and guides abaout the kiting the adds - anybody an idea or video or guide for him?
He is thinking ring of frost and frost trap is still enough and no kiter, only some spells.
Could this be enough? or is it too difficult without a 3rd person?

[HisDudeness]

It has been a while for me doing Nef on 10 but 5 or 6 adds spawn? Can't remember but when we killed him, We CC'd all the adds with ease. You have shaman hex/hunter trap/cyclone/sheep. Depending on order of CC and specs of your hunter, he can get first mob CC'd and the last one. Also Lock is glyphed for fear?