Demo Stat Choice

[Deleted]

There was a Topic about this, a few weeks ago, when someone pointed out to stack massivly mastery for demo-spec and getting a fine result out of it.

I just want to now from all demo-locks, who tried this and maybe sticked with it a couple of raids, how it worked out.

Amory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/characte...deyrion/simple

that is, what i think for me is the best choice of demo stats. (Int>sp>Haste (till 1994)>Mastery=Haste>Hit>Crit)
My understanding of demo dps is, that we have 5 casts for dps: BoD,Corr,Immo,SBolt,HoG (SBolt, Incinerate and SoulFire are the same categorie)
2 of those spells can't miss, and thats Hand of Guldan & Immolate (always refreshed by HoG)
Corruption is not such a big dps+, that i can't just reapply it, if i miss and Bane of Doom haven't missed once since i play, but this could just be luck, don't now if this spell also have a 100%hit like HoG
at last SBolt(and the other Filler): I felt like getting a massive boost from my mastery outweighted the 5-7 misses of fillers per fight, but i can't proof that, just my feelings.

The other Point is Haste. Is it really worth stacking Haste above 1994, because the cast-time of my my spells doesnt really change, there is no Haste-Plateau anywhere near and the simulations say, that mastery should be more dps per point then haste, if i get above 359 itemlvl, but i never really trusted my simulations, because my understanding of them isn't the best :/


What are your thoughts about our demo spec, beside the whole simulation-craft talks, which everyone seems to pray to?
(don't get me wrong, i like it, that we warlocks a the math-nerds, but there must be room for freaky opinions^^)



ps: before someone blame me, for forgetting spells like immo-aura or shadowflame or sth like that: they are a massive dps boost if counted together, but every cast alone they aren't worth to consider stat weights because of these spells in my opinion)

[Jessicka]

Stat weightings for Demonology are actually very close for Mastery, Haste and Crit - there isn't really a bad stat per se, as the margins by which one is better than the other is tiny. At lower item levels Haste is better, but Mastery does overtake it at higher levels. But as I say, the weightings are so close that if you reforge and stack one way or another you probably wont even get anywhere close to 3 digits difference in output on sims.

Furthermore movement, number of targets and so forth will also impact upon how useful each stat is; just as Mastery improves for multidotting Affliction, as does Haste for Demo.

As for Haste caps, for Demonology Immolate really doesn't matter since it'll be refreshed by HoG on cooldown very early, so no ticks or time are ever gained or lost. Corruption doesn't really do enough damage to worry about. It's an issue that only really applies to Destruction who's Conflagrate benefits so much, as well as spending less time hard casting Immolate overall.

In terms of the value of the spec in general. It's incredibly situational. It's good at AoE, but when you have Affliction or Destruction as alternatives, it really cannot hold a torch those options everywhere else. The 10% spellpower buff is vastly overvalued; the DPS loss of playing Demo in a 10 man setup wont be outweighted by the extra 4% Spellpower any other casters gain, and in a 25 man setup you'll likely have an Elemental Shaman anyway for all the other utility they provide. And if that 4% is making the difference for your healers, you've got much deeper troubles in your setup than Spellpower. Other than that, Demo provides nothing the other specs can't do, and nothing other classes can't do ten times better. It is simply in a bad place right now.

Sure it's fun to play, but that fun is always going to be eroded by the fact everyone else can do better with less effort.

Right now, go Affliction. Top meters. Gloat.

[Monkeyy4]

I went with the mastery stacking route. Love it and use it for every fight.
You really have to maximize the use of metamorphosis, get as much in that 36 second window as you can.

My haste is not near 1994 and I do well enough dps wise.

[Meejum]

I've noticed a major positive difference switching reforges and gemming (and chanting where possible), to mastery instead of haste.

With the doomguard buff it gets kinda funny having a healthy amount of mastery and calling him out.

The downside is that if you did want to switch specs, your set up isnt exactly tailored to either aff or destro with all the mastery.

[Hystify]

As for Haste caps, for Demonology Immolate really doesn't matter since it'll be refreshed by HoG on cooldown very early, so no ticks or time are ever gained or lost.

This is not true.

HoG enables 100% uptime on Immolate on a patchwerk style fight since it never misses, but having 100% uptime does not necessarily mean that particular Immolate does the same amount of damage no matter what your haste amount is. In fact, its DPCT increases as you gain more haste.

For instance, on a 5 minute fight, assuming 100% Immolate uptime (refreshed by HoG) at 0% haste, you'll get a total of 300/3 = 100 ticks of Immolate.

If you had 50% haste, that brings your Immolate tick rate to 2s/tick, which means that you'll get 300/2 = 150 ticks of Immolate for that same duration.

[lightgil]

Are you talking about my thread?

[Jessicka]

I'm not disputing that it increases the DPET. I am pointing out however that one of the key reasons for buying an extra tick - i.e. the longer duration meaning fewer hard casts - does not apply to Demonology. This devalues the worth of hitting those plateus, and evidently even the stat since Mastery is that little bit better than Haste at high gear levels.

[Deleted]

After reading that post (lightgil's post) I decided to put everything I had into mastery, reforging, gem and enchants. Before the change I was hit-capped, after I was at 13% (4% misschance), and not even near a Haste cap for the extra tick.

My dps in a BH went up from 16k to 19k, even with the failry high misschance. ^^

[Penguin FTW]

That's how hit works. Hit as a stat doesn't actually increase your dps, it just makes it more stable; which in turn will lead it to sim higher over the course of thousands of attempts than say haste or crit.

I could go unforge out of all my hit, and in theory do way more dps than I do now, but statistically speaking the chance of that goes way down. You just have to find a spot that works for you; for me it's capped so I'm always doing consistent numbers

[Viceversa]

I enjoy it, imagine the possibilities with an on use mastery trinket.

[Orange Joe]

I'm not disputing that it increases the DPET. I am pointing out however that one of the key reasons for buying an extra tick - i.e. the longer duration meaning fewer hard casts - does not apply to Demonology. This devalues the worth of hitting those plateus, and evidently even the stat since Mastery is that little bit better than Haste at high gear levels.

wait i could swear that haste didn't add time to dots it added ticks

( % are not the real i'm pulling them out of my ass.....)

with 0 haste corruption ticks every 3 seconds for 18 seconds

with 20% haste it ticks every 2 seconds for 18 seconds

with 40% it's every 1 for 18

[Jessicka]

BH to be fair is a very short fight with very little movement, so higher numbers during meta, especially when stacked with other buffs and heroism will show a marked increase. However, over longer raid fights such an approach will tail off. Throw in some movement, holding off Meta between phases phases etc, and that massive burst will become diluted.

wait i could swear that haste didn't add time to dots it added ticks

As you add haste, your DoT becomes shortened until a point where a new 'tick' will fit into the margin within which the DoT is allowed to extend to. Corruption for example can last up to 20s, as oppose to the 18 on the tooltip.

[Orange Joe]

As you add haste, your DoT becomes shortened until a point where a new 'tick' will fit into the margin within which the DoT is allowed to extend to. Corruption for example can last up to 20s, as oppose to the 18 on the tooltip.

i've never seen corruption over 18 unless i just clipped it

again i'm almost positive it doesn't add time
like you said it shortens till you get enough haste to add a tick then it's back at 18 sec with 1 more tick then before

[Orange Joe]

As you add haste, your DoT becomes shortened until a point where a new 'tick' will fit into the margin within which the DoT is allowed to extend to. Corruption for example can last up to 20s, as oppose to the 18 on the tooltip.

In Cataclysm, Haste adds more ticks into the existing duration, which maintains the same DPS, but increases the DPCT of each DoT. Let’s look at the two models.

http://cynwise.wordpress.com/2010/10...-in-cataclysm/

[Jessicka]

That just explains exactly what I just said.

Haste reduces the amount of time between ticks equally in both models, so the ticks are coming at the same frequency. Assuming spell damage has not been altered, then the DPS is exactly the same between each model.

This means, if you do not have enough haste to fit a new tick in, the DoT duration becomes shorter until such a point you reach a sufficient haste level to fit a new tick in, at which point it stretches out again.

[Orange Joe]

right. back to 18 seconds never will it go over 18 seconds

[Jessicka]

right. back to 18 seconds never will it go over 18 seconds

It does, I've seen it on my timers plenty of times. Even if it didn't however, you'd still benefit more from your Corruption being at 18s than at 16s, as you'd have to cast it less frequently which is a big reason these markers keep coming up.

[Orange Joe]

I'm not disputing that it increases the DPET. I am pointing out however that one of the key reasons for buying an extra tick - i.e. the longer duration meaning fewer hard casts - does not apply to Demonology. This devalues the worth of hitting those plateus, and evidently even the stat since Mastery is that little bit better than Haste at high gear levels.

i don't think this is right haste is still important for demo as even though you don't have to hard cast immolate it will still add ticks to it (but not increase overall time)

It does, I've seen it on my timers plenty of times. Even if it didn't however, you'd still benefit more from your Corruption being at 18s than at 16s, as you'd have to cast it less frequently which is a big reason these markers keep coming up.

are you by chance refreshing/clipping it when you do? that is the only time my corr timer has shown more then 18

Only if you clip it, then it's just an illusion.

right it's not really adding time it's just letting that last tick go off

[Jessicka]

i don't think this is right haste is still important for demo as even though you don't have to hard cast immolate it will still add ticks to it (but not increase overall time)

Haste is very important for Demo for lots of reasons - and on a Helter Skelter sim, Haste is more valuable than Mastery. DoT tick plateus however aren't such a big deal, particularly for Immolate because one of the reasons they're noteworthy does not apply to the spec; the other reasons haste is good are more important.

The plateus are however very important to Destruction because of their impact on Conflagrate.

are you by chance refreshing/clipping it when you do? that is the only time my corr timer has shown more then 18
...
right it's not really adding time it's just letting that last tick go off

This may well be it.

[d00dz]

For AOE fights where Demo DPS is strong (Heroic Halfus and Heroic Maloriak), Mastery would likely outshine Haste by a good margin.

The highest DPS times are spent on Shadowflame, spreading Immolates, Hellfire than Shadow Bolts or Incinerates and these are the occasions when you would pop Meta and all cooldowns thereby giving Mastery the bigger boost to these AOE bursts.

Comparatively, haste wouldn't give as much benefit since you spend significantly way less time on SBs or Incinerates that the cooldown reduction on Meta won't have as large an impact.