Arcane vs. Aimed

[Sharissa]

Be my guest and dig through our logs. Crythus/desarus are the AiS hunters, Rhedeye and streetsweepr are the arcane. Rhedeye is new, and street doesnt raid much. (rhedeye is from a guild that rivaled our progression for expansions, and just moved over to us)
Crythus and Rhedeye have the same average Ilvl (367). Desarus is 365, streetsweepr is 364.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-a1m88bs9ft1tzk9p/

I took crythus, uploaded him to femaledwarf, dropped arcane shot out of the rotation, and set it to hardcast aimed shot, and his dps shot up 1.6k. Before i reforged his trinket (which currently is reforged from hit to crit), haste's EP value was HIGHER than agility. Haste being 3.7, agil being 2.18; Its substantial.

Crythus shows a better player. On Cho'Gall Crythus hard casted 28 Aimed shots, and Rhedeye casted 34 arcane shots. Depending on haste if Crythus can hard cast 28 aimed shots, Rhedeye should have been able to cast 70 or so arcanes.

[.Aen]

Aimed Shot will obviously sim higher. Try doing more DPS when your in a heavy movement fight. You can do the entire arcane shot rotation on the move.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...talent/primary
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lent/secondary

[Amsner]

Aimed Shot will obviously sim higher. Try doing more DPS when your in a heavy movement fight. You can do the entire arcane shot rotation on the move.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...talent/primary
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lent/secondary

Um, you seem to not realize, that hunters using the AiS rotation, still have arcane shot. If they need to move for any lengthy period of time, they will still use it.

So, is H magmaw a movement fight? (we have 2 hunters, a resto druid, and a frost dk standing outside)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-a1m88bs9ft1tzk9p/sum/damageDone/?s=8055&e=8431

Heroic V&T? has a decent ammount of movement
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3968&e=4432

Oh, ive got it. ODS heroic. Surly heroic ODS would shine in arcane shots favor, because of the movement needed, the target switching.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1297&e=1727

So my point, just because an AiS hunter, uses aimed shot, doesnt mean he WONT use arcane shot while moving, thats actually quite the opposite. Hunters go for the AiS rotation to boost their dps, which would make it absurd for them to not throw out some arcane shots while moving.

Now, personally, that dps is not hard. I got my hunter to 85 this expansion, his first level cap. Got a handful of epics, did some sims, saw AiS blew arcane shot away, and started pulling 20k+ in raids. Hell, i can pull 20k+ as BM, which cant quite hold a candle to MM (in top level gear, BM is 3.7k behind MM). The AiS rotation is not hard, it is quite easy, and, given the extra dps it gives, and how it doesnt prevent you from casting arcane shot when you need to, I dont see the reason to go full arcane shot, unless your lazy.

[Dracodraco]

Okay, do you WANT me to get into this? Fair, I'm bored. Will do.
First off, your magmaw link is not working - will access it in a bit manually.

Your heroic V+T is bullcrap - the arcane shot hunter died, giving him a 82.2% uptime vs the MM on 98.8%. HOWEVER, when the arcane hunter died, he had a dps through the fight of 24.8K, which means that if he had survived for the last 16%, he would have beat the aimed shot hunter by 900 dps.

Now, I can tell you, just from this:
http://raidbots.com/comparebot/4dde8...d000041#damage
Why your arcane shot hunter is doing so retardedly low dps on Omnotron. Because he is, quite literally, doing it *wrong*.
Go under damage - see the boxes with "aimed shot"? Cry did 33 hits through the fight. Rhedeye did... None. He didn't use them at above 80% in the Careful aim phase - he didn't use them while he was under rapid fire - he didn't use them while he was bloodlusted. An hunter focusing on arcane shot only does so when theres NO exterior haste effects buffing them (as then it becomes beneficial to use Aimed shots). This guy is just wrong on so many levels that you won't believe it.

Another thing is his stupidly inefficient amount of shots. Take a look at this:

Cry:
33 aimed.
127 steady.
29 Chim.
7 KS.
6 Arcane.

On the other hand, he didnt aoe adds.

Rhed:
0 Aimed.
120 Steady.
26 Chim.
3 Kill.
34 Arcane.
73 multi shot hits.

He did do 1M dmg to the poison bombs where your Aimed shot hunter only did 27K, so you can tell your aimed shot hunter that hes a dpswhore, and if you ever wipe to adds not dying, he'll be one of the culprits.

Aimed hunter got 1x rapid fire more in than arcane.
Aimed hunter used a tol'vir potion.
Aimed hunter had 20% uptime on 50% dmg buff in arcane puddle vs 12.35% from arcane.

Do you really think this has something to do with the playstyle, or the player after youre shown this? I know what I think.



Allright, as I remembered I promised, heres magmaw:

Your aimed shot hunter, once again, was a dpswhore. He did a total of 600K dmg to the blazing constructs, while your arcane shot hunter did 3M dmg to them. At this point, I'm not sure who is actually worst of them - the hunter that doesn't think of anything but numbers, or the hunter doing the fight correct but failing at playing his class x.x.

Dmg:
32 V 4 aimed shots.
126 V 122 Steadys.
30 V 31 Chims.
5 V 7 Kills.
4 V 49 Arcanes.
Once again it seems like your Arcane hunter has gotten something wrong - he should be able to get off atleast 15-20 aimed shots under haste effects through magmaw, especially valuable if you save your cd's for it.

Aimed used a pot, arcane didnt.
Aimed took alot more avoidable dmg (crash, pillar) than arcane.

So... Yea.

[Nerokyn]

I'm silly and will one week spam arcane shot, the other week I'll spam aimed. Arcane is absolutely dominant without the 4 piece tier bonus in my opinion, with aimed is ahead.

[Amsner]

http://www.femaledwarf.com/
enter your info, hit update DPS.
Under shot priority, drag arcane shot out of the rotation, then change the aimed shot behavior to manual and instant cast. Change your glyphs to suit it. Hit update dps.
After that, look at your stat EP breakdown, and reforge accordingly.

[Dracodraco]

http://www.femaledwarf.com/
enter your info, hit update DPS.
Under shot priority, drag arcane shot out of the rotation, then change the aimed shot behavior to manual and instant cast. Change your glyphs to suit it. Hit update dps.
After that, look at your stat EP breakdown, and reforge accordingly.

Keep saying that. Doesnt mean that it'll give you more dps in a real world situation even if it does in a simulation. Arcane shot is the superior method with aimed shots under haste effects / careful aim. I'd advice you to go back to the rogue forums and complain about being energy capped as combat half the time as our rogue is x.x.

[Nuadu]

Okay, do you WANT me to get into this? Fair, I'm bored. Will do.
First off, your magmaw link is not working - will access it in a bit manually.

Your heroic V+T is bullcrap - the arcane shot hunter died, giving him a 82.2% uptime vs the MM on 98.8%. HOWEVER, when the arcane hunter died, he had a dps through the fight of 24.8K, which means that if he had survived for the last 16%, he would have beat the aimed shot hunter by 900 dps.

Now, I can tell you, just from this:
http://raidbots.com/comparebot/4dde8...d000041#damage
Why your arcane shot hunter is doing so retardedly low dps on Omnotron. Because he is, quite literally, doing it *wrong*.
Go under damage - see the boxes with "aimed shot"? Cry did 33 hits through the fight. Rhedeye did... None. He didn't use them at above 80% in the Careful aim phase - he didn't use them while he was under rapid fire - he didn't use them while he was bloodlusted. An hunter focusing on arcane shot only does so when theres NO exterior haste effects buffing them (as then it becomes beneficial to use Aimed shots). This guy is just wrong on so many levels that you won't believe it.

Another thing is his stupidly inefficient amount of shots. Take a look at this:

Cry:
33 aimed.
127 steady.
29 Chim.
7 KS.
6 Arcane.

On the other hand, he didnt aoe adds.

Rhed:
0 Aimed.
120 Steady.
26 Chim.
3 Kill.
34 Arcane.
73 multi shot hits.

He did do 1M dmg to the poison bombs where your Aimed shot hunter only did 27K, so you can tell your aimed shot hunter that hes a dpswhore, and if you ever wipe to adds not dying, he'll be one of the culprits.

Aimed hunter got 1x rapid fire more in than arcane.
Aimed hunter used a tol'vir potion.
Aimed hunter had 20% uptime on 50% dmg buff in arcane puddle vs 12.35% from arcane.

Do you really think this has something to do with the playstyle, or the player after youre shown this? I know what I think.



Allright, as I remembered I promised, heres magmaw:

Your aimed shot hunter, once again, was a dpswhore. He did a total of 600K dmg to the blazing constructs, while your arcane shot hunter did 3M dmg to them. At this point, I'm not sure who is actually worst of them - the hunter that doesn't think of anything but numbers, or the hunter doing the fight correct but failing at playing his class x.x.

Dmg:
32 V 4 arcane shots.
126 V 122 Steadys.
30 V 31 Chims.
5 V 7 Kills.
4 V 49 Arcanes.
Once again it seems like your Arcane hunter has gotten something wrong - he should be able to get off atleast 15-20 aimed shots under haste effects through magmaw, especially valuable if you save your cd's for it.

Aimed used a pot, arcane didnt.
Aimed took alot more avoidable dmg (crash, pillar) than arcane.

So... Yea.

Wow Amsner, you kinda got pwnd.

[Deleted]

as a full bis 372 hunter i can tell u simply
when u reforge all to haste - u are using aimeds - i dont even have a glyph for shit arcane.
when moving i prefer to cast steadys - i know when i am moving so i just gain focus.

u can of course reforge to mastery, better for aoe and u can try using arcanes. your choice,
hard to compare logs cuz ppl got "strange situations"
anyway just look for top hunters logs and get your info
its SO SIMPLE

[Dracodraco]

as a full bis 372 hunter i can tell u simply
when u reforge all to haste - u are using aimeds - i dont even have a glyph for shit arcane.
when moving i prefer to cast steadys - i know when i am moving so i just gain focus.

u can of course reforge to mastery, better for aoe and u can try using arcanes. your choice,
hard to compare logs cuz ppl got "strange situations"
anyway just look for top hunters logs and get your info
its SO SIMPLE

No hunter named Vdro, mind throwing me your logs and account?
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...draco/advanced
http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/61982/ before you go asking for mine.

[Deleted]

http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/104395/rankings/players/

tomson, anyway i am now hitting BM as u can see

[Dracodraco]

http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/104395/rankings/players/

tomson, anyway i am now hitting BM as u can see

Granted, you do well in your guild. But overall, worldwide? Youre doing kinda terrible.

You've got one record as MM. 195 on Al'akir. Uuuuhh... Yea, thats just not gonna swing it if you want to talk about high end MM (oh, and you only did 500K dmg to adds, yet with basicly tunneling the boss who had a dmg taken increase buff, you only managed 23-24K dps).

Youre harvesting records as BM because no one else plays the darn spec in high end guilds. Its the spec you use if you want to see lots of high ranks, because the only players using it are the ones in more casual guilds, or log whores as yourself. Being highly ranked as a BM hunter gives you absolutly nothing to boast about MM hunter wise. Actually, the logs where you ARE MM in, your dps is semihigh, but yet not high enough to get ranked - conidering youre in 372 average which about 200 hunters have, that means youre either the worst of those ~~200 hunters in your gear, OR hunters with worse gear is beating you. Not exactly someone you'd look up to yourself, is it?

ALSO, last note - if you were serious about BM you'd be orc for the 5% increased pet dmg.

[Deleted]

dracodraco, i totally agree with you - some of old logs are hidden, and i stopped mm log time ago - other ppl are geared up - thats why records are a pice of shit as mm
last shit log when i was mm was : http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-hs...?s=6962&e=7243
died at end of fight with around 30k, witch is good result. anyway i am not here to fight with u and copy here my logs. when i was progressing i was many times in top 20 with mm. i am not going to play mm any more so there will be no more logs. i have some fun with BM. thats all

as u can see al akir - u must also look how log fight was..i dont remember but it was not a bad dps when u look at whole fight.

as bm, yes troll sux, u are right. but its not 5% pet damage, its racial
and if u think only few ppl plays bm, and those ppl sux, u should try

people got their own styles to play this game. i got my own, thats it

[Dracodraco]

dracodraco, i totally agree with you - some of old logs are hidden, and i stopped mm log time ago - other ppl are geared up - thats why records are a pice of shit as mm
last shit log when i was mm was : http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-hs...?s=6962&e=7243
died at end of fight with around 30k, witch is good result. anyway i am not here to fight with u and copy here my logs. when i was progressing i was many times in top 20 with mm. i am not going to play mm any more so there will be no more logs. i have some fun with BM. thats all

as u can see al akir - u must also look how log fight was..i dont remember but it was not a bad dps when u look at whole fight.

as bm, yes troll sux, u are right. but its not 5% pet damage, its racial
and if u think only few ppl plays bm, and those ppl sux, u shoult try

You still didnt rank on that on that log, and it was just last week, so unless you got 6 pieces of gear that reset I dont see your point x.x. Al'kir wasn't really "fine" either, you can keep up 90% of your dps in P3 (hi fox or instants when moving), so you really shouldn't be below 26-27K there unless youre on add duty.

And I don't really care if youre here to argue logs or not - matter of the fact is that youre not ranking well enough to justify calling your method "the best" or even remotely "good".

Also, what on earth do you mean "It's not 5% pet dmg, its racial"? It's a racial that gives your pet a 5% dmg increase oO.

[Kibu]

In theory, leaving out AS in favor of AiS is a slight dps gain. Theory meaning - 100% stand-still-and-nuke fight, the very second this no-longer applies...you figure it out.

[Amsner]

In theory, leaving out AS in favor of AiS is a slight dps gain. Theory meaning - 100% stand-still-and-nuke fight, the very second this no-longer applies...you figure it out.

The very second this no longer applies, you can cast arcane shot when you need to move, just like a *gasp* arcane shot hunter!
AiS hunter =/= AiS 100% of time, never uses AS, just as
AS hunter =/= AS 100% of time, never uses AiS.