Thoughts about the giant 4.2 nerf

[Flashshield]

hello champs! i've got some thoughts to share with you. but first some background on me.
i started playing WoW about 2 weeks after ulduar came out, andgot my first toon in level 80 at the time ToC came out. i've been raiding from that point and until cata release. i have killed every raid bosses on NORMAL and most on HC except sindragosa and LK. i played in what you'd call a semi hardcore guild. we raided 3 times a week for 4 hours pr raidnight. we had a casual approach because we would rather have fun than rush trough like the more hardcore guilds(though there is NOTHING wrong with hardcore guilds, it was just our choice).

i stopped playing WoW alittle time after cata was realeased, since my guild had a major player change, and that my studies overwhelmed me.
i have followed the cata-expansion and seen how blizz is starting to go back to the WotLK thing with 1 dungeon/raid pr tier. that in itself are VERY bad, but at the same time NERFING old content so the less advanced pve players (don't call them casuals, because casuals actually follow the content, they just invest less time in it) is just totally wrong. doing that in the name of letting them see all content, is actually securing that they will never see it. take this as an example. the players will only improve according to the challenges the game give them. if there is no challenges, then the players will never become any better. so, the players who will now go trough the nerfed tier 11 raids(myself among others) will have huge problems clearing firelands.

the better solution would be going back to what i've seen on several forums. the TBC model, i.e multiple dungeons and raids pr tier.
that means that there would be released more than 1 raid pr tier and more dungeons. where the dungeons and raids would NOT be nerfed over time. if you want to experience end game content, then you should EARN it, otherwise blizzard should just skip the fight and go directly to the cutscene.
i would rather be farming the old raids for gear, than getting it from A dungeons, or B nerfed and ruined shadows of the former content.
and this is not my hardcore epeen that is talking, as the whiteknights would otherwise proclaim. no this is purely constructive critizism aimed at both the playerbase AND blizzard. it is not healthy, both for the hardcore gamers, the casuals, or the less advanced raiders or puggers, that the game gets infinitly easier. then what will happen, is that people will finish everything insanely fast, without the slightest satesfactory and just stand around waiting for new tier raid. because, NOBODY want to do easy stuff over and over. another thing is, that if the raids get nerfed, then it will get easier and easier for them to beat the content. we can take an example. when paragon first defeated the LK HC 25M then they had 6 or 7 healers. when they later beat it as the first guild to do it without the buff, they had 2 or 3 healers. sure the new gear helped, but we are talking about some better weapons, not overall better gear.

what my point with this tread was, is that it would benefit EVERYONE if the raids from the old tier was still the only way to get raid gear, to enter the new tier raid. the old tier should not recive any nerf that didn't happen while the hardcores cleared it. then we might actually have: A game where people would become BETTER at it while playing it, and B a better playerbase.

thanks for reading my post, keep in mind that this is just constructive critizism.
plz share your openions, but remember to state WHY so it's not just destructive critizism or trolling. if your not saying why you mean what, then you are regarded as a troll. if you just came here to troll, then do it by all means. fun stuff is good stuff people

---------- Post added 2011-05-25 at 11:54 AM ----------

making a comment to get the thread onto the highlights at start page

[Wilderness]

No, the TBC model was terrible. Because of the way it worked people were forced to go back and run old content if they lost players and had to recruit new ones that needed gear/attunements. You also, since you admit you didn't play then, are overlooking or not seeing the nerfs that took place. Nerfing content when new raids were out has long been a part of Blizzards model - and its a good thing. The way it works now is best, it allows people to not take steps backwards if they lose a player, not have to run older content because of recruiting, and it doesn't punish new players who start later in an expansion who then have to work all the way through older content to see the new stuff. You say no one wants to do easy stuff over and over? Who is doing easy stuff over and over? If you cleared this content when T11 was current then you won't be running it during T12. If you didn't clear it then you can more easily see T11 and get some gear to jump into T12. What no one wants to do is have to run old content over and over for the reasons I've mentioned (gearing up new people, attunements, etc). If you played in wrath then you'll know how long and boring it was to do ICC for a whole year - but the TBC style forced a number of people to run the same content for most of the expansion. The current way of doing it is way, WAY better for the playerbase as a whole.

[Flashshield]

that is why you help your guild mates. or make gear an recuirement. don't fool yourself enough that you can't drag 1 person trough old content in updated raid gear.
also i know that they nerf BT and sunwell to the point of no return, and that is a shame.
what it DID NOT do was force people to go back to conten. you could still skip or just get the minimal ammount of gear to enter the new raids. all that it did was making raiding more than 1 raid a week worth the time.
this new emblem style is NOT in ANY way good for anybody, since it forces people to skip content and play low quality dungeons and raids

[Wollie]

Experiencing new raids shouldn't be something you have to earn, the new raid will allow ppl to experience new raids w/o pullin a wotlk and make heroic t11 gear from heroic currency. I like it, if your having trouble in those raids its good, if your not having trouble..then you should be in firelands...so either way it doesn't matter

[Wilderness]

that is why you help your guild mates. or make gear an recuirement. don't fool yourself enough that you can't drag 1 person trough old content in updated raid gear.
also i know that they nerf BT and sunwell to the point of no return, and that is a shame.
what it DID NOT do was force people to go back to conten. you could still skip or just get the minimal ammount of gear to enter the new raids. all that it did was making raiding more than 1 raid a week worth the time.
this new emblem style is NOT in ANY way good for anybody, since it forces people to skip content and play low quality dungeons and raids

You know they had badges in TBC right? And since you admitted that you didn't play then and weren't there, how can you claim you could just skip or get the minimal amount of gear or that people weren't forced to go back to get new people geared or attuned? On one side you are claiming to know how things were and on the other you admit you weren't there.

Your argument about skipping content doesn't hold water anyway. If you started later in wrath then you could jump straight to ToC or ICC, yes. If you started later in TBC then you weren't going to have the time to Hyjal/BT/Sunwell so you are missing out on that. If you don't play all or most of an expansion then you will not be able to do all the content while it was current. There is no way around that, and going back to the TBC system isn't going to magically fix that.

What the current way of doing this does is twofold - first, it lets new players as well as alts/new mains gear up and jump right into the current content. This is important because the newest tier of content is always what most raiders are focused on, talking about, discussing, and interested in. Its human nature to want to be a part of the newest thing and what most people are interested in. And the second side is that it still does allow that person to go back through old content and see it. If you started when ICC came out you could still go back and enjoy Naxx, and Ulduar, and ToC. You could do so with PuG groups, and with people who weren't that geared, or who didn't know the fights and still succeed and get to see all those bosses. That is much better than having all kinds of content that is inaccessible to a large majority of raiders like it was in Vanilla and through TBC.

[Gahgoots]

Why are people so upset about this? It's been happening for a while now, so shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who's played longer than Cata.

[Deleted]

if your in Firelands raids, why would you care what they do to previous raids ?

The "Nerf" as people call it benifits everyone, I have several alts that will enjoy the content in its easier form, and my main will be happily going through firelands.

[Deleted]

Won't affect me the slightest, because I will be in the Firelands, killing bosses for purplz.

This change only affects the stragglers and the non-regular raiders.

Gated content, does not exist anymore (and thank fuck for that, it was horrible).

[vizzle]

Let me say something I said in another thread.

"They want everyone to be able to see content, everyone. Even the mouthbreathers you see in 5man LFD runs who do 5k dps, they want them to see Cho'gall and Nefarian, even if it's on normal mode.

I really don't understand why anyone is upset about this. The good raiders are in heroic modes, and will hit Firelands as soon as it comes out. The average raiders are already done with normal modes or will be done by the time Firelands comes out. The bad, or very very casual raiders will be able to see the content that previously they wouldn't be able to see.

No one loses anything here, what is the problem?"

If you want harder content of the previous tier, the hardmodes are being left untouched. Of course, if you're clearing previous tier, you're probably in t12/whatever tier is current and you're already making it easier anyway just because of gear. If you want to experience content while it is hard, then play while it is hard. Again, this is just a normal mode nerf, so everyone can see the content and move on. Hard content is still in the heroic modes, there is NO reason for anyone to be crying about this.

[Neotokyo]

if your in Firelands raids, why would you care what they do to previous raids ?

The "Nerf" as people call it benifits everyone, I have several alts that will enjoy the content in its easier form, and my main will be happily going through firelands.

this was my point to some muppet in trade earlier... He couldnt grasp the concept though.

[ZaxGreia]

Don't we hear this every time Blizzard decreases the difficulty on old raid content just before releasing a patch with new raid content? For those who enjoy the effort, they got their rush of being early in figuring out and conquering content.

Now it's ready for the less-skilled groups to experience it. The skilled guilds will move on to Firelands while the less-skilled guilds will make some headway in the first tier of Cataclysm raids. That's how it's always been - make things accessible. Blizzard's found a great way to get more people raiding (and less QQ about how only the hardest of hardcore guilds can see a raid, for example - Re: Naxx in vanilla).

[Helander]

QQ MOAR, your tears feed my soul(or whatever is occupying that space).

Blizz has been doing this since.....THE GAME EXISTED. If you weren't bad and were still struggling to kill normal conclave then this shit wouldnt matter to you. Just like it doesn't matter to oh say 75+% of the raiding community.

[Shawaam]

Oh hai, another person with extremelly unimportant opinions that no one cares about.

[Dalantia]

The effect of the TBC model meant that many guilds wound up treading water instead of progressing, as well.

Guilds that weren't at the top became feeders for those that were - someone would stay in a guild long enough to get enough gear and maybe attunements to meet the big guild requirements, then drop and app to more progressed guilds (either on or offserver). A guild in Kara/Gruul's/Mag's could easily wind up permanently stuck there, thanks to straight-up churn. A guild hitting a rut in TK/SSC winds up struggling to maintain their progression, because they lose a couple of DPS and healers to drama and/or another guild and have to regear and reattune the replacements, sometimes starting at Kara, sometimes having to pull from guild 1, while the other experienced raiders get frustrated, fed up, or just flat-out burnt out on the doable raids, and start leaving for the bigger guilds.

[Warhunt]

Let me say something I said in another thread.

"They want everyone to be able to see content, everyone. Even the mouthbreathers you see in 5man LFD runs who do 5k dps, they want them to see Cho'gall and Nefarian, even if it's on normal mode.

I really don't understand why anyone is upset about this. The good raiders are in heroic modes, and will hit Firelands as soon as it comes out. The average raiders are already done with normal modes or will be done by the time Firelands comes out. The bad, or very very casual raiders will be able to see the content that previously they wouldn't be able to see.

No one loses anything here, what is the problem?"

If you want harder content of the previous tier, the hardmodes are being left untouched. Of course, if you're clearing previous tier, you're probably in t12/whatever tier is current and you're already making it easier anyway just because of gear. If you want to experience content while it is hard, then play while it is hard. Again, this is just a normal mode nerf, so everyone can see the content and move on. Hard content is still in the heroic modes, there is NO reason for anyone to be crying about this.

This, so many times over my fingers would bleed if I typed it.

I'm going to rant here but i wish I could talk personally to every single person moaning about this, so I could fume in their faces and tell them how bloody ignorant they are being. I would question their "views" and then rip them apart with the reality of the situation that they are blatantly missing.

I would make them provide a link to their armory, and if they hadn't done the content to the extent they can have a realistic view, then they will be ignored and headbutted. Maybe not in that order.

If they had I would smash their egotistical face in.......... with logic! What does it matter!? It means nothnig to you. You are not going to be doing the normals, as you are far to good. It is NORMAL ONLY, you have your heroic, you have your new raid. Stop whinging you moronic pretentious bandwagon following dickhead! I am sick of it.

[CrusaderNerò87]

This is a good thing. I have farmed current content enough as it is, I don't want to go back there everytime we recruit people. Besides, those who did current content had a challenge and can continue to tier 12 with the good feeling of having cleared tier 11. I don't mind this.

[Flashshield]

You know they had badges in TBC right? And since you admitted that you didn't play then and weren't there, how can you claim you could just skip or get the minimal amount of gear or that people weren't forced to go back to get new people geared or attuned? On one side you are claiming to know how things were and on the other you admit you weren't there.

Your argument about skipping content doesn't hold water anyway. If you started later in wrath then you could jump straight to ToC or ICC, yes. If you started later in TBC then you weren't going to have the time to Hyjal/BT/Sunwell so you are missing out on that. If you don't play all or most of an expansion then you will not be able to do all the content while it was current. There is no way around that, and going back to the TBC system isn't going to magically fix that.

What the current way of doing this does is twofold - first, it lets new players as well as alts/new mains gear up and jump right into the current content. This is important because the newest tier of content is always what most raiders are focused on, talking about, discussing, and interested in. Its human nature to want to be a part of the newest thing and what most people are interested in. And the second side is that it still does allow that person to go back through old content and see it. If you started when ICC came out you could still go back and enjoy Naxx, and Ulduar, and ToC. You could do so with PuG groups, and with people who weren't that geared, or who didn't know the fights and still succeed and get to see all those bosses. That is much better than having all kinds of content that is inaccessible to a large majority of raiders like it was in Vanilla and through TBC.

i know they implemented the bagde system in TBC, and i still don't agree with that system at all.
you ask why know about the TBC system? you probably didn't live at the time hiter ruled germnay, so how do you know about him. easy, someone told you about him.
when you play in guilds that raid 25M, there will be atleast 24 other people than you, so the chance that one of those played TBC is quite big.
it so happens that i was part of the oldest danish guild at that time(Invader). yeah you could go back to the old raids, but for what? the quality of everything but Ulduar and ICC was mildly speaking, horrible. add that to the fact that you could get ulduar gear from both 5 man HC(and the HC in Wrathwas a joke, if you remember?) and ToC. why would i care to go back to those lame raids, when the gear i got from doing a 5 man gungeon in 7 min was more rewarding?

i can understand the utility i give players who are making alts, but there is a WAYbetter solution on that problem. make the raid loot BoA, or simply get your freaking friends to help you runining the content. i mean, if you are the SOLE person who needs loot from a raid, then your obviously gonna get geared faster than collecting emblems.

what is the point of letting firelands be accesible to players who don't have the slightest hope of killing the bosses? even if you feed a bad player with purple, he will still be bad.

no, the attument was crap, you should not be forced to do such a lame thing, but having a larger ammount of raids to get gear from, that actually provide a decent challenge, will make PvE much more attractive.
if people could get usefull gear from BWD, then they would still raid it on off days in 4.2 that would be neat.

[llcjay1]

As someone who cannot raid on a schedule because of real life time constraints, this will make it easier for me to pug these raids in 4.2. I have not even been able to step into the Cata raids (other than BH) because of the lack of pugs available (at least on my realm). Making the game more accessible is not a bad thing. Especially considering that only normal modes are being nerfed.

[Sanctioned]

Can people find a way to not bitch about every single thing in this game. Look at the damn nerf this way. Say a guild gets a new recruit or somebody rerolls to help the guild out and the guild already has everybody that they want to have the legendary. Oh well shit guys the new guy needs the normal versions of t11 so they can start getting the legendary, oh nvm it's been nerfed so it'll be a quick fun trip down memory lane. You douchebags being so l33t like you are if you're complaing remember that the heroic modes aren't touched so go do them while you stroke your epeen, you shouldn't even be doing normal modes.

[Flashshield]

so, new players who come to the game, should be treated with crappy content? or should they simply be allowed to skip it? the latter is a direct contrast to blizzards new "we want everyone to experience every content" policy. the first is just your selfish ego. and think about it.
if ANYONE leave your raid team, then somebody will have to fill in. now, if this happens a few times, then you will have to actually recruit a new member to the guild. and with your selfish thought process, you have socially engineered everyone to not try to improve their gameplay. because if you keep nerfing every thing, then they don't have to improve. and then you can't use that scrub you got into your guild. and then the guild will slowly die.
i bet you. at some point in this expansion, it will be possible with 359 gear, to stand in the lava at nefarian and still beat him, without anybody dying