Thoughts about the giant 4.2 nerf

[Wilderness]

you ask why know about the TBC system? you probably didn't live at the time hiter ruled germnay, so how do you know about him. easy, someone told you about him.
when you play in guilds that raid 25M, there will be atleast 24 other people than you, so the chance that one of those played TBC is quite big.
it so happens that i was part of the oldest danish guild at that time(Invader). yeah you could go back to the old raids, but for what? the quality of everything but Ulduar and ICC was mildly speaking, horrible. add that to the fact that you could get ulduar gear from both 5 man HC(and the HC in Wrathwas a joke, if you remember?) and ToC. why would i care to go back to those lame raids, when the gear i got from doing a 5 man gungeon in 7 min was more rewarding?

i can understand the utility i give players who are making alts, but there is a WAYbetter solution on that problem. make the raid loot BoA, or simply get your freaking friends to help you runining the content. i mean, if you are the SOLE person who needs loot from a raid, then your obviously gonna get geared faster than collecting emblems.

what is the point of letting firelands be accesible to players who don't have the slightest hope of killing the bosses? even if you feed a bad player with purple, he will still be bad.

no, the attument was crap, you should not be forced to do such a lame thing, but having a larger ammount of raids to get gear from, that actually provide a decent challenge, will make PvE much more attractive.
if people could get usefull gear from BWD, then they would still raid it on off days in 4.2 that would be neat.

You really need to stop and think through your statements a little better because the Hitler/Germany knowledge thing doesn't relate at all. Because I'm smart enough that if I was making an argument or a statement about Hitler and/or Germany I would state exactly where I got my information from. Whether that was a website, a book, or what my grandfather told me. And then someone who had a different argument or information could refute or debate it, tell me that the source I used was based on misinformation, etc etc. Its how logical thought and reason gets presented. And if I just had an opinion which wasn't based on fact then that would be made clear as well. You didn't do that - you stated that "what it DID NOT do was force people to go back to conten. you could still skip or just get the minimal ammount of gear to enter the new raids. all that it did was making raiding more than 1 raid a week worth the time." That's you pretending to make a statement of fact which sounds like you knew it from personal experience except you already admitted that you didn't.

And you completely missed my point about people who started later into TBC and those who started later in Wrath. You claimed that with the current system people skipped content because the gear didn't matter but my point was that people who started raiding later in TBC would also miss content because they wouldn't be able to get through the first tiers of content to things like Hyjal/BT/Sunwell. The fact is that if you don't raid for nearly all of an expansion you can't play all the content when its current.

Making raid loot BoA is a horrible, horrible solution. Have you seen how much people complain about people rolling on or ninja'ing loot that they don't need just to boost their ilevel or because they can? And now you want to let people be able to grab gear for their alts - sorry guy, I know this is a nice upgrade for your main spec that you just killed the boss with, but my 4th alt's off-spec could really use that too, so I'm going to roll against you. Blizzard wants to encourage PuGs, not discourage them. Which is another reason why they nerf old content - so that pugs can get through it so that more people see the content. Compared to Vanilla raiding, TBC had more accessible raid content. But compared to the current system the TBC system is way more exclusive and keeps people from seeing as much content. That would be a bad way to do things from a business perspective, which is why Blizzard has moved away from it.

Fucking stupid to nerf content for casuals, I raid once a week, friday for about 6 hours and we got 7/13 down, realm 3rd (know, terribad server but whatever) My point is, current content is easy, it's sad to see all these guilds on my server raiding 4 days /week with 11-12/12

Tbh, you're a fucking tard if you cant get 12/12 down.

You signed up just to make a post where you come off as an elitist doucebag? And why do you care if players who don't have the time, or skill, or who are on alts have an easier time with outdated content? It doesn't affect you in any way.

[D_K_night]

OP, you say you're "casual". Take a look:

1) Scheduled event over X number of days, @ X amount of time per day
2) Mandatory attendance(responsibility for informing someone if you can't make it)
3) Mental time investment by anyone in the group(frustration/annoyance/anger if event doesn't happen or isn't successful)
4) Set goals(A/B/C should be completed within X amount of time per day)

The moment you apply all above four points towards any activity at all - it's no longer "casual". You've raided for so long, to the point that everything above is just second nature, that you've fallen into the trap of thinking that anyone can just do, what you do. And that's not true. Is everyone in the world the same as you? No one else has limited time, and saddled with other responsibilities aside from video games?

Point is, any organized and reasonably skilled group can accomplish and down most raid content. But WoW isn't just for those types of people. It needs to be accessible, hence the new design of tier 1, and tier 2, period.

Blizz lost 600k customers. Put yourself under the gun and ask yourself, "what steps do I need to take, to reclaim those 600k customers". Step out of your little shell and think beyond your borders. Admit to yourself that it's just ego that talking when you want people to be forced through 4+ tiers just to get to see anything current. Remember when Naxx was first introduced? How many people actually experienced it @ level 60? Most players didn't. Not when you had to:

MC -> BWL -> AQ -> Naxx

Maybe you loved it because it made you part of an exclusive crowd. Those days are over.

[Deleted]

I don't really see a problem with nerfing old content. The game has shifted from tiered progression, which made recruitment a huge pain (people looking at TBC with rose tinted goggles often forget this, HUGE factor) bordering on nigh on impossible if you lost people in between, to a current tier focused progression, which is cool. Also chilling on alts on an odd night really simply killing stuff while having fun on vent while not having to particularly worry about mechanics in an old raid is cool as well.

At least we'll see 25m pugs for T11 now, which can only mean that amongst bads some good players which got a bit trapped in crap gear late in the current tier will be able to gear up and get recruited somewhere good, so only more power to the people.
And frankly, if you didn't manage to clear normal T11 by now, there's a good possibility you have to re-evaluate either your guild, or your gameplay.

[Deleted]

this game is not meant to be pugged. it is a Massivevly Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. it is not Solo call of duty. this is a social game, and if you can't invest enough time to play it with some friends, then don't expect to get anywhere in raids. EVER. it is NOT anyone else than your problem that you don't have time to play the game. why should it go out over the people who HAVE time to play the game, that you can't?
Jeez! selfishness at it's worst! > and blizzard is people with mindest like you?! f*ck this game is screwed then...

How the hell are raid pugs organised through trade chat not massively multiplayer?

[ComplexResample]

I think this nerf is a wonderful idea.

Shortly after hitting level 70 in early 2007 I was spending 16+ hours a week raiding with a 25m guild, clearing all content to Mu'ru (my guild broke up, no KJ kill for me boohoo), and I continued into clearing all Wrath HM's as a raid leader because I'm fun and determined like that. Due to a work promotion, I can only play for 0-5 hours in a week now; I simply don't have the time to spend in a video game anymore.

I wield my Protection Warrior and Mage like a pro even to this day. I don't stand in fire, and 80% of my overall encounter deaths in WoTLK were not attributed to my own errors (WoL FTW). I've turned the worst player I've ever seen into the hardest raider through positive reinforcement and friendly encouragement. But I cannot get into a pug run on my server with a 346+ ilvl even though I have read the fights because pugs are generally unwilling to take a chance on someone new to the instance, especially a super-casual like me. Even if my past experience far outshines their own.

I wouldn't mind spending an evening in BWD or BoT. I'm sure this nerf will actually allow me to see what all my old raid team is talking about. People will not be as picky with those places not being as deadly. Since i'm a casual now, automatically a bad player in the troll's eyes, I am willing to forgo a harder challenge for the prospect of having one evening of fun.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't mind spending an evening in BWD or BoT. I'm sure this nerf will actually allow me to see what all my old raid team is talking about. People will not be as picky with those places not being as deadly. Since i'm a casual now, automatically a bad player in the troll's eyes, I am willing to forgo a harder challenge for the prospect of having one evening of fun.

True, you'll get to see some new fights. Be warned that if the nerfs are severe enough, it can be quite disappointing compared to what your friends tell you. You'd have some idea of this if you'd killed M'uru post 30% nerf after having struggled with the old version for so long.

[Bassnectar]

No, the TBC model was terrible. Because of the way it worked people were forced to go back and run old content if they lost players and had to recruit new ones that needed gear/attunements. You also, since you admit you didn't play then, are overlooking or not seeing the nerfs that took place. Nerfing content when new raids were out has long been a part of Blizzards model - and its a good thing. The way it works now is best, it allows people to not take steps backwards if they lose a player, not have to run older content because of recruiting, and it doesn't punish new players who start later in an expansion who then have to work all the way through older content to see the new stuff. You say no one wants to do easy stuff over and over? Who is doing easy stuff over and over? If you cleared this content when T11 was current then you won't be running it during T12. If you didn't clear it then you can more easily see T11 and get some gear to jump into T12. What no one wants to do is have to run old content over and over for the reasons I've mentioned (gearing up new people, attunements, etc). If you played in wrath then you'll know how long and boring it was to do ICC for a whole year - but the TBC style forced a number of people to run the same content for most of the expansion. The current way of doing it is way, WAY better for the playerbase as a whole.

your from my server

[BatteredRose]

Thoughts about the giant 4.2 nerf

Irrelevant.

[llcjay1]

How the hell are raid pugs organised through trade chat not massively multiplayer?

This^

/playstheworldssmallestviolinforOP

[brownballa55]

nerfs are stupid, the t11 raids are ALREADY going to be easier with the much better gear thats coming out, there is no point in nerfing it.

[Zendik]

the better solution would be going back to what i've seen on several forums. the TBC model, i.e multiple dungeons and raids pr tier.
that means that there would be released more than 1 raid pr tier and more dungeons. where the dungeons and raids would NOT be nerfed over time.

remember that tbc had a huge flaw... either you did the raid on 10 or 25. kara 10, ssc 25, etc etc. so, if you started with your friends on a 10 man guild, you then had to choose between content or your friends. also, tbc did not start with ZA and sunwell. so basically, you had kara to start and suck it until you had gear (and a good pc hopefully) to then gquit your 10 man guild and go to a 25 one. altough maggy and gruul were puggable, ssc and tk was not so much puggable.

i am a great fan of TBC content. but if i would prefer to go back to it as it was? no thx.

i would however enjoy a lot if they would allow 10 and 25 man versions for the same raids, and preferably, keep those versions on a separate lockout, not just one save a week.

[Clockwork Pinkie]

what my point with this tread was, is that it would benefit EVERYONE if the raids from the old tier was still the only way to get raid gear, to enter the new tier raid. the old tier should not recive any nerf that didn't happen while the hardcores cleared it. then we might actually have: A game where people would become BETTER at it while playing it, and B a better playerbase.

Blizzard can't and won't judge the playerbase because they are the ones that are still running this game. The idea of having it so that previous raids are giving you gear for the next raid is what's still happening. Valors won't give you everything. Neither will it give you everything in 4.2 when new valor rewards are added in jps get 356 epics. Sure there's rep to get the rest of the epics (Hyjal's new rep and dailies >.>) But that still takes time. How they get the gear shouldn't matter at all. Because what they want you to do is to bring the player, not the gear, nor class. If a player is bad, remove them and you wont have to see them again. If people have their raids set and know what they're doing, these nerfs do not affect them at all, being they already cleared the current content and seen all they've wanted to see. If they want more people to see content and they decide that nerfing old content is the best way, then so be it. It's happened since BC, and it'll keep happening. I'll eat a hat if they don't nerf Firelands when the NEXT TIER RAID comes out.

[lancore89]

Seriously, who cares about those nerfs? Raiders won't set a foot in T11 anyway since Firelands will be out. And other players have an easier time pugging old content for some epics instead of mindlessly grinding "heroics" for justice points to get the same ilvl equip. Great for them, I guess?

Isn't really supprising anyway, Raids always get nerfed over the time.

[Flashshield]

Fucking stupid to nerf content for casuals, I raid once a week, friday for about 6 hours and we got 7/13 down, realm 3rd (know, terribad server but whatever) My point is, current content is easy, it's sad to see all these guilds on my server raiding 4 days /week with 11-12/12

Tbh, you're a fucking tard if you cant get 12/12 down.

you did not read anything i wrote. i said, that i havn't even gotten to raid yet, because i havn't been playing the game for several months. the reason i complain, is because some fuckers like you kee ruining the game for new players....

---------- Post added 2011-05-26 at 11:31 AM ----------

Blizzard can't and won't judge the playerbase because they are the ones that are still running this game. The idea of having it so that previous raids are giving you gear for the next raid is what's still happening. Valors won't give you everything. Neither will it give you everything in 4.2 when new valor rewards are added in jps get 356 epics. Sure there's rep to get the rest of the epics (Hyjal's new rep and dailies >.>) But that still takes time. How they get the gear shouldn't matter at all. Because what they want you to do is to bring the player, not the gear, nor class. If a player is bad, remove them and you wont have to see them again. If people have their raids set and know what they're doing, these nerfs do not affect them at all, being they already cleared the current content and seen all they've wanted to see. If they want more people to see content and they decide that nerfing old content is the best way, then so be it. It's happened since BC, and it'll keep happening. I'll eat a hat if they don't nerf Firelands when the NEXT TIER RAID comes out.

you cannot remove a bad player if they all are bad. if everything keeps getting nerfed, then only the hardcore guild will have decent member. and when they need to get new members, then they can only choose between tards. and at a point they will just give up. and what will happen then? then there will only be tards left in this game, because the game is retardedly easy, and don't supply anyone with challenge

[Wilderness]

you cannot remove a bad player if they all are bad. if everything keeps getting nerfed, then only the hardcore guild will have decent member. and when they need to get new members, then they can only choose between tards. and at a point they will just give up. and what will happen then? then there will only be tards left in this game, because the game is retardedly easy, and don't supply anyone with challenge

How does nerfing old content make everyone else bad? They still have current content to work on, learn from, and get better. Old content has always been nerfed over time - lo and behold there are still good players and we're not all tards running around. Calm down, the sky is not falling, and everything will be just fine.

[Hobb]

Fucking stupid to nerf content for casuals, I raid once a week, friday for about 6 hours and we got 7/13 down, realm 3rd (know, terribad server but whatever) My point is, current content is easy, it's sad to see all these guilds on my server raiding 4 days /week with 11-12/12

Tbh, you're a fucking tard if you cant get 12/12 down.

Need help getting your head unstuck from your ass?

[Crashdummy]

This is a desperate move from Blizzard to try to convince me and the millions that already departed this game (600k were up to march, but they have the real number) to come back. This and the huge amount of mails offering free days if we return.

But i don't want other people's leftovers, i want Blizzard to catter to me and to the millions that loved Wrath (even when elitists that haven't even downed Wrath heroic modes claim how easy wrath was) and hate this new Cata style. If they make new content accesible in normal mode and leave Heroics to those who want challenge again, then i will come back, untill that happens, i don't want other people leftover, they can put they old raids nerfs into their....

---------- Post added 2011-05-26 at 11:09 AM ----------

hello champs! i've got some thoughts to share with you. but first some background on me.
i started playing WoW about 2 weeks after ulduar came out, andgot my first toon in level 80 at the time ToC came out. i've been raiding from that point and until cata release. i have killed every raid bosses on NORMAL and most on HC except sindragosa and LK. i played in what you'd call a semi hardcore guild. we raided 3 times a week for 4 hours pr raidnight. we had a casual approach because we would rather have fun than rush trough like the more hardcore guilds(though there is NOTHING wrong with hardcore guilds, it was just our choice).

i stopped playing WoW alittle time after cata was realeased, since my guild had a major player change, and that my studies overwhelmed me.
i have followed the cata-expansion and seen how blizz is starting to go back to the WotLK thing with 1 dungeon/raid pr tier. that in itself are VERY bad, but at the same time NERFING old content so the less advanced pve players (don't call them casuals, because casuals actually follow the content, they just invest less time in it) is just totally wrong. doing that in the name of letting them see all content, is actually securing that they will never see it. take this as an example. the players will only improve according to the challenges the game give them. if there is no challenges, then the players will never become any better. so, the players who will now go trough the nerfed tier 11 raids(myself among others) will have huge problems clearing firelands.

the better solution would be going back to what i've seen on several forums. the TBC model, i.e multiple dungeons and raids pr tier.
that means that there would be released more than 1 raid pr tier and more dungeons. where the dungeons and raids would NOT be nerfed over time. if you want to experience end game content, then you should EARN it, otherwise blizzard should just skip the fight and go directly to the cutscene.
i would rather be farming the old raids for gear, than getting it from A dungeons, or B nerfed and ruined shadows of the former content.
and this is not my hardcore epeen that is talking, as the whiteknights would otherwise proclaim. no this is purely constructive critizism aimed at both the playerbase AND blizzard. it is not healthy, both for the hardcore gamers, the casuals, or the less advanced raiders or puggers, that the game gets infinitly easier. then what will happen, is that people will finish everything insanely fast, without the slightest satesfactory and just stand around waiting for new tier raid. because, NOBODY want to do easy stuff over and over. another thing is, that if the raids get nerfed, then it will get easier and easier for them to beat the content. we can take an example. when paragon first defeated the LK HC 25M then they had 6 or 7 healers. when they later beat it as the first guild to do it without the buff, they had 2 or 3 healers. sure the new gear helped, but we are talking about some better weapons, not overall better gear.

what my point with this tread was, is that it would benefit EVERYONE if the raids from the old tier was still the only way to get raid gear, to enter the new tier raid. the old tier should not recive any nerf that didn't happen while the hardcores cleared it. then we might actually have: A game where people would become BETTER at it while playing it, and B a better playerbase.

thanks for reading my post, keep in mind that this is just constructive critizism.
plz share your openions, but remember to state WHY so it's not just destructive critizism or trolling. if your not saying why you mean what, then you are regarded as a troll. if you just came here to troll, then do it by all means. fun stuff is good stuff people

---------- Post added 2011-05-25 at 11:54 AM ----------

making a comment to get the thread onto the highlights at start page

The TBC model ended with only 5% of playerbase seeing sunwell, it was the worst model ever implemented in a game, with blizzareds resources expended in 5% of their clients.

Wrath model, offered everything. Most people saw the content, and those who wanted challenges had it (you obviously were challenged because you coudln't clear sindragosa and LK heroic, therefore, the challenges were there for you).

Wrath model was a HUGE improvement over TBC one, and Cata is a step back.

[Wilderness]

This is a desperate move from Blizzard to try to convince me and the millions that already departed this game (600k were up to march, but they have the real number) to come back.

Yes, its a desperate move for them to do the same thing that they've been doing for years.

[Crashdummy]

Yes, its a desperate move for them to do the same thing that they've been doing for years.

I'm sorry, how many 20%+ nerf on all bosses health, melee damage and abilties have blizard done in the past years? The 30% buff to ICC, this and...

[Deleted]

I'm sorry, how many 20%+ nerf on all bosses health, melee damage and abilties have blizard done in the past years? The 30% buff to ICC, this and...

They've done comprehensive across the board nerfs in
- Patch 2.1 in TBC that introduced Black Temple. Everything from 5 man heroics to Karazhan, Gruul, Maggy, SSC and TK were made considerably easier. They just didn't document stuff as well
-Patch 3.0, 30% nerf to every dungeon and raid in TBC
-Patch 3.1 to 3.2, significant nerfs to all Ulduar bosses, just spread out over several weeks. The overall effect could easily have been 20% or more