1. #1
    The Lightbringer
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    Shadow priest reforging on Sinestra

    Hello, I couldn't find a topic about shadow priest reforging on Sinestra, so this is why I made on. My guild have been progressing on Sinestra for a while now (a lot of hours spend in total), however none of the wipes are caused by low dps, but mostly by bad orb kiting or healing issues. However since I am usually getting some sweet WoL ranks I wouldn't mind maximizing my damage potential when we manage to kill her. This is 25man btw, so there will be less orbs targeting me.

    I don't have any math to back this up but I am going to assume the stat priority during the time window of the haste buff would be something like this (especially considering that a big part of my damage will be mind sear): haste (until gcd capped mind flay) > hit (until cap) > mastery > crit > haste (after mind flay becoming gcd capped).

    Haste: Stacking haste until mind flay has less than 1 second cast time seems to be an obvious choice simply because how well haste is scaling with an additional 100 % haste. Adding additional haste after this point seems like a waste considering that there's little movement involved in P3 except if you end up having to kite a twilight orb.

    Hit: Well, I am quite unsure about this one. Losing a gcd on Sinestra in p3 is a huge waste of damage simply because of how much damage 3 ticks of mind flay is, and it's always good to play it safe. On the bad side moves like mind blast plays a very little role in P3 and the damage from sw :d is neglectable.

    Mastery: Considering all the damage sources that scales with mastery goes up in P3, and that you can almost certainly maintain a 100 % empowered shadows during Essence of the Red, I am only going to assume that on this fight specific mastery is superior to crit. Mind sear also scales very well with mastery, making it an even more favourable stat.

    Crit: Well there is nothing much to say honestly. Mana is not an issue at all, so less mana gained because of lower shadowfiend uptime doesn't seem like a loss at all. Shadowfiend damage, non-orbed mind blasts and shadow word: death are the only abilities whose damage isn't modified by mastery and haste.
    The shadowfiend wont be affected by the 100 % buff during P3, so its damage will be relatively low. Casting mind blast non-orbed will be a dps loss because mind blast will be gcd capped, and the orb generation will be incredibly high anyway. Shadow word :death will be a dps loss to cast too, because it will be gcd capped and with all the damage going on anyway it also seems like a quite dangerous move.

    I am guess mind flay will be gcd capped at this point (assuming you recieve DI):

    1.03*1.05*2= 2.163

    2.163 - 1 = 116.3 % additional haste

    I realised you needed 2.33 haste in order to get a 1 sec cast mind flay, that means 1.33 aditional haste.

    1.1163*X=1.33 <=> X=1.1947 which means 19.47 % additional haste.

    0.1947 = x/12800 <=> X=2492.62 haste rating where 128 is the rating need to gain 1% haste.

    So 2492.62 seems to be the magical number. Well now I know this, but I still don't know how I should prioritize stats like hit, crit, mastery and haste (after 2492 rating). Any of you who can assist me with this issue?
    Last edited by Funkthepunk; 2011-05-25 at 09:21 PM.

  2. #2
    I dont reforge for the fight at all! Dont really see the point! got overall rank 2 on our first kill with INT > HIT > HASTE > MASTERY > CRIT! (depends on tactics and role ofc.)

  3. #3
    Mind Flay is a 3 second cast, you need 300% haste to cap it to 1 second. You also forgot to account for 3% haste from Darkness. So 300% <= (1+h/12805.71)*1.03*1.03*1.05*2 where h is haste rating. Solving for h, h >= (3 / 1.03 / 1.03 / 1.05 / 2 - 1) * 12805.71 = 4438.018.

  4. #4
    I doubt any changes to the best gear available from the current content and optimized will result in much dps increase. Shadow priest dps is somewhat RNG, an over-due orb or a debuff will probably change a lot more.

    Going off topic, I noticed that my shadow priest always has a haste debuff shortly after the beginning of a fight and periodically thereafter which add ~0.5 sec to my MF. It disappears right away and leaves no trace in my haste percentage. I feel it is associated with a certain enchant proc but couldn't figure which. Any one have the same experience? Any idea?
    Any nerf to any class or spec in any way is a nerf to your raid. So if you PvE, stop your self-righteous remarks and silly arguments. Think for your raid, not yourself.

  5. #5
    Pandaren Monk Vomlix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adilina View Post
    I doubt any changes to the best gear available from the current content and optimized will result in much dps increase. Shadow priest dps is somewhat RNG, an over-due orb or a debuff will probably change a lot more.

    Going off topic, I noticed that my shadow priest always has a haste debuff shortly after the beginning of a fight and periodically thereafter which add ~0.5 sec to my MF. It disappears right away and leaves no trace in my haste percentage. I feel it is associated with a certain enchant proc but couldn't figure which. Any one have the same experience? Any idea?
    Hmmm... It could be Hurricane, but you say it doesn't leave a trace... Sounds more like Early Frost to be honest.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by adilina View Post
    Going off topic, I noticed that my shadow priest always has a haste debuff shortly after the beginning of a fight and periodically thereafter which add ~0.5 sec to my MF. It disappears right away and leaves no trace in my haste percentage. I feel it is associated with a certain enchant proc but couldn't figure which. Any one have the same experience? Any idea?
    Sounds like the new MF mechanic where if you clip it with another MF, the lost tick/ticks are added to the next cast.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by adilina View Post
    I doubt any changes to the best gear available from the current content and optimized will result in much dps increase. Shadow priest dps is somewhat RNG, an over-due orb or a debuff will probably change a lot more.

    Going off topic, I noticed that my shadow priest always has a haste debuff shortly after the beginning of a fight and periodically thereafter which add ~0.5 sec to my MF. It disappears right away and leaves no trace in my haste percentage. I feel it is associated with a certain enchant proc but couldn't figure which. Any one have the same experience? Any idea?
    I would not go as far as to say that our DPS relies on getting lucky with orbs. I pull consistent DPS on most bosses and my DPS doesn't jump a lot just becauase of some shadow orbs.

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyTheRetard View Post
    Mind Flay is a 3 second cast, you need 300% haste to cap it to 1 second. You also forgot to account for 3% haste from Darkness. So 300% <= (1+h/12805.71)*1.03*1.03*1.05*2 where h is haste rating. Solving for h, h >= (3 / 1.03 / 1.03 / 1.05 / 2 - 1) * 12805.71 = 4438.018.
    You don't need 300 % haste. As an example 200 % haste will half your cast time making 1.5 second. 4438 wouldn't make sense either cause I am almost mind flay GCD capped with around 2000 haste. However you are right about me forgetting Darkness. With Darkness I get 2048 which seems a bit low but could be true. But thanks for the replies so far. I am still thinking of prioritizing mastery above crit this fight which only seems logical.
    Last edited by Funkthepunk; 2011-05-27 at 11:53 AM.

  9. #9
    I will be honest, I have never done this fight, but I thought for some reason that it was movement intensive? If it is movement intensive, crit > mastery based on some theorycrafting done my kilee on howtopriest.com, since part of mastery's value involves using mb on cd... But yeah, if it is not movement intensive, just ignore me and feel free to stack mastery after you hit the haste cap for the fight. Still though, reforging is probably not necessary :P But on another note, I thought 4,000-something haste was the gcd cap?

  10. #10
    There isn't really a reason to reforge to be fair. Your haste for the last 25m of Sinestra is the most important, just people learning to move for orbs is what your main priority should be.

    Our guild has the ranged stand in a line, and it's been quite effective as we've nearly had the achievement too, but people are tunnel visioning

    Once all 25 know how to avoid the orbs (and the people around where it spawns move to help) it's an easy kill.

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynlyn View Post
    I will be honest, I have never done this fight, but I thought for some reason that it was movement intensive? If it is movement intensive, crit > mastery based on some theorycrafting done my kilee on howtopriest.com, since part of mastery's value involves using mb on cd... But yeah, if it is not movement intensive, just ignore me and feel free to stack mastery after you hit the haste cap for the fight. Still though, reforging is probably not necessary :P But on another note, I thought 4,000-something haste was the gcd cap?
    Mastery doesn't scale with non-orb'ed mind blasts, so this statement is wrong: "since part of mastery's value involves using mb on cd...". The reason why mastery is relatively better on patchwerk fights is because you can ensure a very high uptime on ES because of a high number of mind flay fillers.
    You get 100 % additional haste on Sinestra for 3 minutes which is why the haste needed to become GCD capped is different on this fight. And there isnt really a lot of movement on Sinestra during the 100 % haste buff.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    You don't need 300 % haste. As an example 200 % haste will half your cast time making 1.5 second. 4438 wouldn't make sense either cause I am almost mind flay GCD capped with around 2000 haste. However you are right about me forgetting Darkness. With Darkness I get 2048 which seems a bit low but could be true. But thanks for the replies so far. I am still thinking of prioritizing mastery above crit this fight which only seems logical.
    I misspoke; I was thinking "300% cast speed" when I wrote that, which would be 200% haste since we start at 100% cast speed That does not affect the correctness of my result. Full math:

    Hasted cast speed of Mind Flay (C) is C = 3 / (1 + H) where H is spell haste. To cap Flay to the 1 second minimum GCD you need 1 >= C, so 1 >= 3 / (1 + H) and thus H >= 2 = 200%.

    Let h be haste rating from all sources (typically just gear, since we use intellect flask/food). Final spell haste is then H = (1 + h / 12805.71) * 1.03 * 1.03 * 1.05 * 2 - 1. Combining the 2 formulas we get (1 + h / 12805.71) * 1.03 * 1.03 * 1.05 * 2 - 1 >= 2, solving for h = (3 / 1.03 / 1.03 / 1.05 / 2 - 1) * 12805.71 = 4438.018.

    With 2000 haste rating, your cast time would be 3 / (1 + 2000 / 12805.71) / 1.03 / 1.03 / 1.05 / 2 = 1.165 seconds.

    Edit: That extra 100% haste buff means you will get twice as many mind flay ticks squeezed between MB cooldowns as normal. That increases the probability of "losing" orbs that proc when you're already capped at 3.
    Last edited by CaseyTheRetard; 2011-05-27 at 05:02 PM. Reason: Shadow Orb comment.

  13. #13
    A good Sinestra parse is based on how hard you cheese the add aoe, thats pretty much it. I wouldnt concern yourself with trying to reforge for a fight when dps ranking is based around aoe cheese.
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  14. #14
    Instead of dumb math you could just ask someone who has done Sinestra.
    2800 haste results in 1.1 sec MF cast under the P3 haste buff.

  15. #15
    You know you could easily answer the question yourself playing with a simulator...

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by spiralout View Post
    Sounds like the new MF mechanic where if you clip it with another MF, the lost tick/ticks are added to the next cast.
    Thanks, that's exactly what it is. The thing that still puzzles me is that sometime when I start casting another MF when the channeling is in the red region on my Quartz bar, the extra time is still added to the next MF. It looks like there is a server-end lag to me.
    Any nerf to any class or spec in any way is a nerf to your raid. So if you PvE, stop your self-righteous remarks and silly arguments. Think for your raid, not yourself.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Strykie View Post
    Instead of dumb math you could just ask someone who has done Sinestra.
    2800 haste results in 1.1 sec MF cast under the P3 haste buff.
    That would be useful if the OP asked "How much haste do I need to get a 1.1 sec MF cast on Sinestra?" instead of "How much haste does it take to GCD cap MF on Sinestra?" Given that it's impossible to reach the requisite level of haste in current gear, I imagine that asking people who've done the fight wouldn't be productive.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyTheRetard View Post
    That would be useful if the OP asked "How much haste do I need to get a 1.1 sec MF cast on Sinestra?" instead of "How much haste does it take to GCD cap MF on Sinestra?" Given that it's impossible to reach the requisite level of haste in current gear, I imagine that asking people who've done the fight wouldn't be productive.
    1. Passing 2800 Haste by any significant level is VERY unlikely and impossible if you use Theralions Mirror
    2. Im not sure if you are aware of Sinestra mechanics and it is very possible to gcd cap in P3.
    3. My insight was very productive because of my 1st point and so there is some reference to people wondering what kind of casting speed they would be looking at.
    4. Not sure why people (like yourself) who aren't atleast progressing on Sinestra are trying to give advice.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Strykie View Post
    1. Passing 2800 Haste by any significant level is VERY unlikely and impossible if you use Theralions Mirror
    2. Im not sure if you are aware of Sinestra mechanics and it is very possible to gcd cap in P3.
    3. My insight was very productive because of my 1st point and so there is some reference to people wondering what kind of casting speed they would be looking at.
    4. Not sure why people (like yourself) who aren't atleast progressing on Sinestra are trying to give advice.
    1. Thank you for verifying my statement.
    2. My posts make it clear that I'm aware of the 100% haste buff, since it's included in all the calculations. Your use of the term "gcd cap" here is either a misleading reference to capping 1.5 second casts - which no one asked about, since it is obvious - or an incorrect statement that it is possible to gcd cap mind flay.
    3. Your statement about your experience on Sinestra was a valuable contribution for anyone that doesn't understand algebra well enough to plug their haste rating into the formula I gave.
    4. This statement is pure ad hominem. I'm not giving advice, I'm stating facts. If you'd like to continue your elitist attack on my progression, ancestry, and/or sexual preference, please do so in PMs since it's not germane to the topic of this thread.

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