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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by MagusUnion View Post
    You haven't tried warrior tanking at 85, I bet...
    No, I haven't. Now instead of being a little obscure please do go ahead and tell me all about it.

  2. #22
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    DRW - Yes the RP cost is kind of high but 20% parry isn't something to be scoffed at. Consider Chim P2 where you can't heal, Flames Orders Cho'gall, melee hasted debuffing Halfus, and your realize how handy a massive avoidance boost is at (and it's our 4P bonus in 4.2). Also, it still increases DPS for the duration (pop it right before hitting outbreak and you get double diseases even) and if your worried about threat then just glyph it. Honestly after the 1st minute of a fight you should be uncatchable in threat and can use it without worry.

    Healing done
    Actor Totals Hits Crits
    Bloodworm 1138872 100.0 % 442 7260.5 1040592 67.6 % 24 11002.8 98280 62.8 %
    That's over 5 kills in BWD so about 228k healed per boss fight. They aren't show stoppers but I don't see anywhere better to stuff the point into.

    Strangulate - Only time I use this is on BoT trash, otherwise I have endless winter for boss fights which is way more useful. I guess if your running ZG/ZA a lot still or something it might be ok, but still tons of other things you could put the 2 points into that provide more mileage than this talent (like DRW and blood worms =P).

    Scent of Blood 3/3 - The 3rd point is literally wasted here.

    Epidemic 0/3 - No points at all? You avoid two survival talents, dump a bunch of DPS junk, and can't even find 2-3 points to spare for a disease time buff which actually ups your survivability AND dps?
    For those who want to call me a troll... no, he's not been in raids yet, and yes, I'm replacing that ilvl 333 trinket sometime soon...
    No one would rightly tank a raid anyways with most of your gear un-echanted and not even bothering to forge it either.
    And no, when I can get 45k damage absorption buffed from my Blood Shield ontop of my usual damage reduction
    So you know how to hit DS after taking a massive amount of damage? Congrats! I can stack a 190k blood shield on Chim but that doesn't mean anything by itself.
    Last edited by SurrealNight; 2011-05-26 at 09:00 PM.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  3. #23
    You've clearly never played another tank and you've clearly never done any content that would challenge anyone with a pulse. There's a very, very large canyon from survivability micro, to cooldown flow, to standard upkeep.

    "You haven't tried warrior tanking at 85, I bet..."

    Warrior tanking is fan-fucking-tastic, it's currently the absolute ideal for every situation and area of design.

    Look, let's try this. Go on any tanking forum and try to convince people that Warrior tanking is more difficult, less utility chock or less potent than Blood DK and see how long it takes you to get laughed off the board. Really, it's a good game!
    I will drop some wisdom though that is becoming a fun mantra on several tank boards I visit:

    "The more fun you have tanking on DK, the worse of a player you likely are"
    Last edited by Merin; 2011-05-26 at 09:01 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    No, I haven't. Now instead of being a little obscure please do go ahead and tell me all about it.
    Off-Topic:
    Despite being avoidance capped, Warrior's lose threat much easier than the other tanking classes due to simply not having 'sticking' dmg to their attacks (beyond ONE bleed effect..) Due to this, even Vengeance can't help a Warrior with threat because evenly geared dps-to-tanks can easily out-threat the Warrior on the simple fact that the physical damage a warrior gives isn't enough to match the lol-dmg of the other classes, and thereby creates an uneven distribution of threat for the DPS side (which results in wipes)...

    TL;DR: Even in BiS gear, warriors come short in threat, despite their dramatic survivability, which is pointless to have if all of the raid is already dead at 20% boss health...

  5. #25
    Hahahahahahaha, threat.

    Oh dear god.

    And people wonder why no one wants to do pugs, because this is the kind of person you get.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by MagusUnion View Post
    Off-Topic:
    Despite being avoidance capped, Warrior's lose threat much easier than the other tanking classes due to simply not having 'sticking' dmg to their attacks (beyond ONE bleed effect..) Due to this, even Vengeance can't help a Warrior with threat because evenly geared dps-to-tanks can easily out-threat the Warrior on the simple fact that the physical damage a warrior gives isn't enough to match the lol-dmg of the other classes, and thereby creates an uneven distribution of threat for the DPS side (which results in wipes)...

    TL;DR: Even in BiS gear, warriors come short in threat, despite their dramatic survivability, which is pointless to have if all of the raid is already dead at 20% boss health...
    Every word I read of that post has your credibility plummeting like a hooker getting a suitcase full of money for a BJ.

  7. #27
    Dude, but Warriors suck, they can't hold threat! Listen to this unenchanted, blue geared wonder, he is PRO. Maybe I really was raptured and he's tanking Jesus!

  8. #28
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Every word I read of that post has your credibility plummeting like a hooker getting a suitcase full of money for a BJ.

    Dude, but Warriors suck, they can't hold threat! Listen to this unenchanted, blue geared wonder, he is PRO. Maybe I really was raptured and he's tanking Jesus!
    lol. I'm just going to go ahead and start the T minus "thread locked" countdown now.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  9. #29
    Fluffy Kitten Zao's Avatar
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    I must have missed the point where the title changed into Rate my gear and spec and tell me how much I suck
    (that was a warning not to get personal in case that was too subtle)

    Now:
    I've played every tanking class on 85, although I only tank raids with my DK. And I think I have a fairly good insight into at least three of them (I really dislike feral tanking)

    And as far as I can say, DKs are indeed the hardest of the four. That does not mean that you have to go to a two week boot camp prior to tanking a raid as a DK, but that an averagely skilled DK will take more damage than an equall skilled and geared paladin.
    But on the other hand a nigh perfectly played DK can outshine the other tanking classes.

    While we do have a bit more downtime than the others, we also have a lot more stuff we have to pay attention to, and if done right you'll always be busy doing something, Even if you're currently not pressing a button. Now if that's considered a good or a bad thing depends a lot on the player and it can't really be generalised.

    PS: While I did warn the others about it, you really should look at some talent discussions @ OP.

  10. #30
    Zao, "outshine" is rather sounding like a slight hyperbole tbf unless you have some numbers to plug in for perspective. e.e

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Zao View Post
    I must have missed the point where the title changed into Rate my gear and spec and tell me how much I suck
    (that was a warning not to get personal in case that was too subtle)

    While I did warn the others about it, you really should look at some talent discussions @ OP.
    I missed that too... but I guess the real point I was trying to make was this...

    Despite all the flaws my character has, I find his QoL great. No, I'm not in full purple... no, I'm not some '1337 1337 pro' who post on forums just to stroke my epeen... I'm an average player... and I like the class as is...

    Dk's, in my view, are ok as is... Yes, they require more skill than other tanks, but that's fine. Yes, they do have moments of dramatic downtime, but you can work around it. The QoL of my tank is great, and even other players in runs tell me I'm going a good job as is...

    So w/e... My spec. is not cookie cutter, and my gear is not the best. I don't care. I'm having fun, and I wanted to know why better geared players weren't having the same level enjoyment as I. In a way, I found my answer regardless. So say what you want. I'll still be able to clear content, and I'll still get where I want to go in the game. Regardless, it's just a game with me, and I don't have to rub my epeen in someone's eye just to make a point or to feel good about myself so I can sleep at night...



    (but on that note, I may consider picking up DRW, since I have found I keep too much RP as a whole in my runs... lol)

  12. #32
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    So say what you want. I'll still be able to clear content, and I'll still get where I want to go in the game.
    You might want to clarify what clearing content means to you. If you only do 5m stuff sure knock yourself out with some weird spec and not knowing 100% of the ends and outs of your class, most of the people in the queue with you are probably like that anyways.

    If you consider moving into BWD/BoT < Heroics < Firelands as clearing content you will have to actually learn your class, enchant/gem/forge your gear. If you don't care about that then of course you wont see our QoL issues. I can guarantee that anyone who understands all of our class mechanics realized these QoL issues without ever hearing the term.

    Squeezing the most out of a Blood DK takes a lot of finesse and fighting of mechanics that don't work well with themselves at all, not realizing this already proves you don't understand them. Heck I don't even bother loading diseases outside of Outbreak anymore even if no one else is providing the debuff, just got sick & lazy of it after all this time.
    But on the other hand a nigh perfectly played DK can outshine the other tanking classes.
    Outside of a few fights were we have a few tricks that favor DK's I dunno if I could agree with that either as a blanket statement. In general I think my play is pretty good and I'm not making any of our other tanks look bad.

    About the only fun I have now days is having someone link heals after a fight and see if I end up above any healers so I can shame them =P
    Last edited by SurrealNight; 2011-05-26 at 10:25 PM.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  13. #33
    In terms of talents, I can agree with the OP partly.
    Butchery is a great talent. Period.
    Everybody loves bladed armor, but as a tank it just sucks. Yay, 1000 AP for 3 talent points that don't help my survival at all?
    I take butchery, gain even more RP, and squeeze some more death strikes in. Yes I know it's probably not a lot, but it's more then with a bladed armor spec.
    Quote Originally Posted by Genganger View Post
    Often I just open the fridge instead of turning the lights on in the kitchen. I like that.

  14. #34
    In my opinion it's much more fun to tank with all the micromanagement. Planning ahead thinking about the different boss abilities before the pull and coming up with a good cooldown "strategy". I for one like a little challenge. It's not about spamming buttons as fast as possible, but rather using your experience and skillset.

    Only thing I have noticed lately regarding runes is that sometimes I get the error message that I "don't have enough runes to do that" when I'm looking at my runebar and I have 3 deathrunes ready. I don't know, might just be my UI.

  15. #35
    I love that DKs have a lot going on. I know I don't play perfectly, far from it, but atleast there's something to aspire for. I'm constantly trying to get better, and it's a really good feeling.

  16. #36
    death knights are fine in regular mode raids even OP in some instances
    in heroics you begin to fall behind even if you are VERY good at DK tanking you can still be outshined by a moderately good pally druid or warrior tank in alot of encounters

    DKs are a niche tank, you knew that when you picked to be one. We are supposed to be unique, the price of being unique is that you sometimes arent better than homogenized sword and board tanks.

    there is one issue i can think of that might snowball into a real problem if left untended

    DK's version of block will eventually devalue itself. shields will eventually become big enough that they will reduce your upcoming damage enough that your next shield will suffer because of it. This wont happen for some time but it will eventually happen. No other tank in the game has a survivability mechanic that works against the tank, or itself. shield tanks will eventually hit 102.4 rating whereas blood shields will be counter productive at the same gearscore for us

    without a change DKs will eventually switch to avoidance stacking while upholding a certain % of blood shield. which really is the way it should be IMO, mastery stacking is fun for now but i dont see it lasting past 4.2
    Last edited by stacker55; 2011-05-27 at 04:48 AM.
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by stacker55 View Post
    DKs are a niche tank, you knew that when you picked to be one.
    You really don't want to try and bullshit people into thinking you know why they made a death knight. >>

    Quote Originally Posted by stacker55 View Post
    without a change DKs will eventually switch to avoidance stacking while upholding a certain % of blood shield. which really is the way it should be IMO, mastery stacking is fun for now but i dont see it lasting past 4.2
    "the way it should be" is absolute rubbish. We should not be losing out on mitigation (which is why we go over to avoidance eventually) for literally no other reason than having too good gear.

  18. #38
    I don't always agree with DV but the "niche" tank thing is indeed complete bullshit. There is no reason we should not be on an equal playing field. After playing a DK and Bear tank for a long time I've heard those words far too often, and they're simply no defense at all as to why either class shouldn't be just as viable with similar QoL. I'm all for one requiring more skill with more throughput, but there's no evidence to that currently.

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    DKs are a niche tank, you knew that when you picked to be one. We are supposed to be unique, the price of being unique is that you sometimes arent better than homogenized sword and board tanks.
    I made a DK because my friends wanted me to get to 80 fast to raid ICC with them so starting a lvl 55 on their server was the quickest route, I didn't know anything about the class at first besides them saying "DK's are awesome!". I picked up tanking to speed up grouping and heroic 5m gearing. Of course by the time I hit 80 and had raiding quality gear Cata came out =P

    Right now DK mechanics are slightly less annoying than leveling/factioning/gearing a new char from scratch so I'm going to stick with it and see how Firelands plays out.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  20. #40
    High Overlord Dystruktaur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagusUnion View Post
    I don't see where the issue is in your argument, other than the fact that there is more to micro-manage with dk tanks than with, say paladins or warriors...

    Which, imo, is fine., because it allows me to tailor CD's to the circumstance...

    About to take alot of magical damage?: Anti-Magic Zone + Mirror
    About to take alot of physical damage?: Icebound Fortitude + Bone Shield
    Need to quickly pull a mob w/o runes or DG?: Outbreak + Death Coil

    It's this situational tanking that makes the spec. fun, and enjoyable to me... Of course, if this is the kind of thing players want to complain about having to do, then idk what to tell them other than to reroll to an 'easier' tanking class...
    I agree! Half of the fun with playing Blood is CD management.

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