1. #2261
    Quote Originally Posted by HBpapa View Post
    I don't have much of a problem with anything he personally didn't like. Opinion is opinion. He did a poor job supporting his arguments for a lot of it, but whatever. What I do have a problem with are the flat out inaccuracies that G4 can't even be bothered to revise or retract. If you are going to post a article nearly two weeks after the product released then it should be topical for the released product, not a beta-based article with a meager defense of 'it didn't change from beta so I'm not going to change my article at all'.

    The author of this article has gone so far as to call someone an 'asshole' because the person told them they should have reviewed the released product (source).

    To me, its just one more indication of a more systemic problem in the gaming world. Did Funcom refuse to pay their 'protection money'?
    Meh, according to him he did play the finished product as well. And while I haven't played the finished product I did play a good bit of beta for a while and while there were some great improvements as it progressed, it didn't improve the game enough for me to feel it warranted a purchase and subscription fee (personal opinion).

    And I acknowledged the bit about ad dollars buying better reviews, it's pretty hard for anyone to deny it at this point (especially with events like the Gamespot fiasco with Cane and Lynch [I think that was the game]), which is pretty sad.

    It's unfortunate that big gaming sites have so little credibility with their reviews but hold so much sway. Honestly, most of the best reviews I've seen come from the smaller sites with guys who are super passionate about the games they play. That's where you get people who are massive MMO fans giving a MMO the proper time needed to write a proper review.

    Honestly, I think if the game didn't have a subscription it would be getting much better review scores. The fact that it has a subscription means people are expecting a certain level of quality that just isn't there with the game right now. It's still a great game with an amazing story, a spectacular atmosphere, and wonderful lore, but any initial review is going to look at it as a subscription based game. Unfortunately we don't know if Funcom will be able to deliver on their promise of monthly content updates (and we don't know the type of quality of those updates), but reviewers SHOULD revisit their reviews once we start seeing that as that has a HUGE affect on what kind of score a MMO should get. Sadly, mainstream sites just aren't fully read to review MMO's as they should be and are reviewing them as they would review traditional games pretty much.

  2. #2262
    Quote Originally Posted by HBpapa View Post
    I don't have much of a problem with anything he personally didn't like. Opinion is opinion. He did a poor job supporting his arguments for a lot of it, but whatever. What I do have a problem with are the flat out inaccuracies that G4 can't even be bothered to revise or retract. If you are going to post a article nearly two weeks after the product released then it should be topical for the released product, not a beta-based article with a meager defense of 'it didn't change from beta so I'm not going to change my article at all'. The fact that the author even refers to the game as being "this late in beta" as of the 19th goes to show there is no intent on accuracy.

    The author of this article has gone so far as to call someone an 'asshole' because the person told them they should have reviewed the released product (source).

    To me, its just one more indication of a more systemic problem in the gaming world. Did Funcom refuse to pay their 'protection money'?
    Also seems he doesn't know how to push "B" in-game and I'd guess stupidity is one of the reasons he says all the quests are bugged as well, just because he can't solve them.
    (And well, because he played it in beta, but I can safely say that there's very very few bugged quests right now, unless I'm just really lucky and have somehow completed all of them anyways.)
    Some quests require outside knowledge to solve, like say an obscure bible passage. But who in their right mind wants to exit a game, visit Google and look up a passage? It interrupts gameplay and just feels like lazy design.
    And even the ravens as he mentioned, I didn't even think that they were bugged and suddenly vanished, they just fly one direction and outfly you until you catch up with them sitting on the ground but running after something is probably too much to ask unless a questhelper and a huge arrow tells you to run after it.

    Unfortunately though, this probably gave G4 more hits than they would ever have gotten if the review was good, so they're probably fine with it.

  3. #2263
    Quote Originally Posted by Ighox View Post
    And even the ravens as he mentioned, I didn't even think that they were bugged and suddenly vanished, they just fly one direction and outfly you until you catch up with them sitting on the ground but running after something is probably too much to ask unless a questhelper and a huge arrow tells you to run after it.
    Aren't there tons of clues in game that help you work out the puzzles though? I mean, they're supposed to be challenging and require you to put together seemingly unrelated pieces of a puzzle and search for clues.

    It's funny because gaming media have been bemoaning how easy games have become but they will attack a game that actually challenges them if it comes out (except with some games like Dark Souls). How dare a game actually require me to think and use my critical reasoning capabilities and problem solving skills!

  4. #2264
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    ...I haven't played the finished product...
    You say this, then say this later:

    The fact that it has a subscription means people are expecting a certain level of quality that just isn't there with the game right now.
    I'm not nitpicking or making a personal attack, but the beta was shit compared to the live version of the game. Yes, there are still quality issues, including animations, character creation, and bugs, but the overall quality of the game is high; in fact, it's much higher than it was in the very last stages of closed beta.

    It's nowhere near perfect, and this is probably the best example of a game having an open beta that actually hurt it rather than help it. Too many people feel the same as you, that there wasn't any quality in the beta so the the live game couldn't possibly be any better, but it is. The beta was pretty bad, so anyone who feels that way definitely have a right and reason to feel as such. Lucky for me, I decided it was different and interesting enough to try, and I couldn't be happier. Of course, individual mileage may vary. Point is, though, that people shouldn't have to make that decision on a game. The real issue with choosing to play any game, especially a new release, should be personal taste, not whether or not the game has a certain level of quality or polish. I think Funcom really dropped the ball on marketing the finished product.

  5. #2265
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahjane View Post
    I'm not nitpicking or making a personal attack, but the beta was shit compared to the live version of the game. Yes, there are still quality issues, including animations, character creation, and bugs, but the overall quality of the game is high; in fact, it's much higher than it was in the very last stages of closed beta.
    There weren't radical changes to the game engine and how it ran. There weren't big graphical improvements. They didn't change animations very much. Lip syncing was still painful (but the voicework and writing was amazing). There were a number of things that people expect from a AAA launch that just weren't there. I'm going based off of reviews I've read/watch from sources I trust (smaller reviewers) as well as friends.

    I'll fully admit I haven't played it since the final stages of beta. I'm not saying the game is bad by any stretch. I thoroughly enjoyed it and felt it was the most interesting game world of any MMO I've played. It had top notch writing and voicework from what I've played/seen, and the cutscenes are fantastic. But there were some base problems that weren't possible to be fixed in the time between the end of beta and launch. My issues with how I perceived the quality of the game was a big factor in my decision to hold off on buying it at launch.

    This is all personal opinion mind you, I'm not claiming any of it is fact. But it's an opinion I've seen shared elsewhere so I'm inclined to believe I'm not the only one with that opinion. That doesn't make the rest of the game any worse though, because it's great and I'm super happy a lot of people are enjoying it. I'll probably pick it up some time down the road once things have settled down and the initial rush of players is gone.

  6. #2266
    The thing with VO is ... GW2 and TOR have better animations sure. But the intonation of voice can't compare ... it's like TSW VO was done by actors while GW2/TOR use whoever they can get.

    What's the worst that can happen to you ...

  7. #2267
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    The fact that it has a subscription means people are expecting a certain level of quality that just isn't there with the game right now.
    Unless proven otherwise by GW2, TSW is the only subscription based MMO at this very moment that is worth it's money from the day one.


  8. #2268
    Quote Originally Posted by Pokot View Post
    Unless proven otherwise by GW2, TSW is the only subscription based MMO at this very moment that is worth it's money from the day one.
    Well, GW2 isn't subscription based so it doesn't fit in the same category.

    I probably should have rephrased and said, "My opinion is that since it has a subscription means people are expecting a certain level of quality that just isn't there right now." But objectively reviewers will generally hold a subscription based game to higher standards than they would a non-subscription based game.

    I'm not saying that TSW is a bad game or that it's not worth the money, because for a lot of people it's totally worth the money from day one and they're enjoying it, and that's awesome. For me though, it isn't right now. I don't feel that the level of quality I would expect from a subscription based game is there. I still think it's a great game, and if it didn't have a subscription I'd play the hell out of it, supporting it with a box purchase and probably some cash shop purchases. I just don't think it's worth 15 bucks a month right now, that doesn't make it bad though.

  9. #2269
    Sloppy animations which make for sloppy combat was just too painful for me to play. Could of been a great game, what a shame.

  10. #2270
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    I probably should have rephrased and said, "My opinion is that since it has a subscription means people are expecting a certain level of quality that just isn't there right now." But objectively reviewers will generally hold a subscription based game to higher standards than they would a non-subscription based game.
    I don't know. Usually hype = score when it comes to MMO. No reviewer has time to actually properly test big MMO title because that takes months. So the score is basically first impressions + hype = score.

    What's the worst that can happen to you ...

  11. #2271
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    Aren't there tons of clues in game that help you work out the puzzles though? I mean, they're supposed to be challenging and require you to put together seemingly unrelated pieces of a puzzle and search for clues.

    It's funny because gaming media have been bemoaning how easy games have become but they will attack a game that actually challenges them if it comes out (except with some games like Dark Souls). How dare a game actually require me to think and use my critical reasoning capabilities and problem solving skills!
    Exactly, quests takes a really long time if you don't read any spoilers or walkthroughs and people aren't used to it at all.
    People won't learn morse code for a quest, it's much easier to write random answers for 15minutes then complain that nothing works and the quest is bugged.
    Or just ragequit and do like the G4 reviewer and say the quests and story sucks.
    There are so many people complaining over bugged quests on general chat when I play and most of those people are just missing something, like not finding the right clues, and even more people are just asking "is xxxxxx-quest bugged????" all the time.
    After seeing this I'v learned not to trust any comments regarding "so many bugged quests".

    Went into this thinking I would never subscribe past the first month but it's looking like I will have to simply because questing can be so frustrating and take so much time that I probably won't even have time to finish all the zones in the first month.
    And that's a good sign for me, any other game and I'd sit at max-level/skills/whatever right now and complain about everything the game lacks.

  12. #2272
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    I don't know. Usually hype = score when it comes to MMO. No reviewer has time to actually properly test big MMO title because that takes months. So the score is basically first impressions + hype = score.
    I'm pretty sure Ten Ton Hammer (granted, they are a site focused on MMO's) have to play around 200 hours or so before they fully review a game. I might be remembering the specific incorrectly (I probably am), but I know they had a very legit review process for their MMO's.

    Hype = score when it comes to almost any game. And hype = marketing+PR budget for the most part. There are some great games that don't have massive marketing/PR budgets that do spectacularly, and some games that do that bomb, but it's a pretty good rule of thumb. Considering how the marketing/PR budget for this was rather sedated, and fan hype wasn't super high (nowhere near compared to other recent games or MMO's) the lower review scores sadly make more sense within the context.

  13. #2273
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    Well, GW2 isn't subscription based so it doesn't fit in the same category.
    What I meant is that GW2 is supposed to be this breakthrough that will prove that an AAA MMO doesn't need to have a sub based model.

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    I just don't think it's worth 15 bucks a month right now
    And that's where I completely disagree, which I think is pretty obvious from my previous post. I am not talking about bugs and many defects that the game has (but isn't plagued with), I'm just talking about state of the MMO market, TSW atmosphere, writing and many more factors combined that form my opinion and lead me to believe that it's more than worth it's money in sub fees.

    I respect your opinion, but I think you would at least consider changing it if you've played live.


  14. #2274
    Quote Originally Posted by Pokot View Post
    I respect your opinion, but I think you would at least consider changing it if you've played live.
    If they had a legit trial program rolling I'd totally give it a shot (the buddy key was only 24 hours or something and I wouldn't be able to get far enough in during that time to judge), but I've done much of Kingsmouth and unless it radically changed it between the end of beta and launch it wouldn't change my opinion much. I'd be super stoked if they did what TERA did and gave you a high level character to test out higher level content though, since that's generally where MMO's start to get really good.

    I'm always open to changing my opinion and do so all the time : )

  15. #2275
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    unless it radically changed it between the end of beta and launch it wouldn't change my opinion much.)

    Nothing major changed from final beta phase to launch.

  16. #2276
    I wasn't following beta that much and just jumped right in on the release which probably helped me a little bit. I have to admit one time I've been watching a beta Polaris run and I was so frustrated by animations and once again with the implementation of trinity system that I've actually posted a hateful comment to the video. I regret it now . At least I know for sure that those things don't make or break the game for me. Always good to learn something about yourself.


  17. #2277
    The most stupid thing funcom is doing is 20 man raids.

    Seriously.... just not please no... 10 man or 15 man, no 20.....
    Pokemon FC: 4425-2708-3610

  18. #2278
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    The most stupid thing funcom is doing is 20 man raids.

    Seriously.... just not please no... 10 man or 15 man, no 20.....
    Are they really? Hm, well let's see how that works out.


  19. #2279
    Quote Originally Posted by Pokot View Post
    Are they really? Hm, well let's see how that works out.
    If they are going to be identical like what WoW does it will be an overall failure balancing them in terms of numbers, difficulty's (hell and nightmare), and rewards.

    If they are going to be like what Rift does it means people who can never 20 man (for various reasons like computer capability) will never see the content and only get to see the 10 man content while 20 man players can easily see both.

    STICK WITH 1 SETTING THAT'S NOT TOO MANY PEOPLE AND TOO LESS. So only doing 10 mans with 3 difficulty (hell and nightmare) would be the best... I really don't plan on staying if its going to be 20 man, I just wont :/
    Pokemon FC: 4425-2708-3610

  20. #2280
    Finished the current storyline yesterday, doing basically every single mission (except maybe some well hidden side-missions). My review of the game so far:

    Pros:
    - The storyline is great. I love the setting they chose for the game, and in my opinion they managed to merge well mythology, folklore, conspiracy theories and their own original creations.
    - The dialogues (actually monologues, most of the time) are well written and the voice acting is very good. Sure, some dialogues feel a bit overdone, but never underwhelming. Never had the desire to skip cutscenes.
    - The freedom of customization for the skills. Being able to use any skill in the game, limited only by the weapons you are currently using, is amazing. Sure, it will take some time to get a significant amount of them to have viable choices, but as AP comes from basically everywhere, it is no problem. And just completing all the quests will grant you about 30% of all skills.
    - The questing feels right. The zones are made internally coherent by the main quest and the side-quests taking you where you need to be.
    - Investigation missions. I love that kind of puzzle solving. It's a real shame they start to dwindle as the zones go by, totally vanishing in Transylvania.
    - Liked the straight to the point dungeons, with little to no trash.

    Ok:
    - The combat isn't stellar, for sure. The abilities are responsive, but the weapons sometimes lack the proper behavior, impact and response you would expect from foes.
    - Due to combat failing to impress me, so did PVP. Some balance is needed there, too.
    - The "no levels" feature is nothing to brag about. Content is still gated by gear and experience for skills. No problem for me... just, again, no reason to be proud.
    - Physical customization of the characters isn't very good at the moment. Yes, I'm aware they will launch barber shop and plastic surgery soon.

    Cons:
    - Not much incentive to keep playing after the storyline is done with. That is of course a personal opinion based on the current state of the game, as it's well known endgame will eventually be there.
    - Sabotage missions. I know they did the best they could to create a stealth game experience with the engine they had, but the result isn't fun at all.


    In its current state, I would give the game about 8/10, which is very good for a MMORPG that is not even one month old. It's pretty clear that the focus of the game is storytelling, and it does it very well. The other features are there because they need to, and are just enough to work. If Funcom lives to the promises of content updates, the game can rise to be one of the very best options in the market.

    And I would totally recommend it for the storyline alone, played as a single player game with some multiplayer interactions.

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