1. #981
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    I stand by my opinion that the features have been sugar coated. After playing closed beta more, its an ok game. Not worth 15$ a month.
    What features are those? Everything they said would be there is there, and is better than I expected. To those of you who have read interviews and/or browsed through the site, what you saw is what is in the game.
    Last edited by bcbully; 2012-06-08 at 04:57 AM.

  2. #982
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcbully View Post
    What features are those? Everything they said would be there is there, and is better than I expected. To those of you who have read interviews and/or browsed through the site, what you saw is what is in the game.
    I've heard some groaning over "classless" and "level-less" because of the weapon/ability limit and how SP work. That's hardly sugar-coating, though. Other than that, I can't begin to think of what features could be sugar-coated. He probably just doesn't like the game, which is fine. Lots of people won't.

    People these days don't know how to approach a new MMO properly, anyways.

  3. #983
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    I stand by my opinion that the features have been sugar coated. After playing closed beta more, its an ok game. Not worth 15$ a month.
    What exactly has been sugar coated ? as others above have stated. funcom have been fairly open about what you are getting and how it works. and they have delivered on that. and dude $15 per month it's not exactly unexpected, you pay the same for wow, or swtor in fact across the board of subscription based games are all around the same. $15 per month and for hours of entertainment is nothing. its not an investment, you aint going to cash it in after 10 years. its entertainment. when it stops being entertaining you stop paying. fairly simple, no ?

  4. #984
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    If anything Funcom has been pretty conservative about describing what is going to be in the game.

  5. #985
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahjane View Post
    I've heard some groaning over "classless" and "level-less" ...
    Well, if you count the decks as a "class" then yeah it does have classes. But, those are just suggested for people who can't really make a build solely on their own. During .8 I used the templar soldier deck and in .9 I've used variations of it.

    There is no "YOU REACHED LEVEL 20" But, I have AR, DP and all 3 talisman pieces at SL 8. Which is a total of 180 SP I've spent. Since you get 1 SP for full bar that means I'm on level 180 ... There's 12 categories in the SP pane which means there's a total of "432" "levels" to gain.

    So, to those of us who have participated in the CBT or Weekend betas, we know that there really is no level system and people will just spin it, in the fashion I just did.

    ----------

    I really enjoy that this game isn't an instant gratification game. I'm glad it makes you use your brain. Those who can't run and just AOE down a gob of enemies will complain and leave, which makes me happy.

    And about the looks of the game... Well, the actual graphics, plus the atmosphere of this game set it well above, in my opinion, SWTOR, GW2 and Tera. I play on DX11, 1900x1080 on ultra and it's simply stunning. Plus, I like that the people actually look like people who are fighting off the undead and living in the world and not some Fair Skinned, Blue haired, Anime Boob Goddess.

  6. #986
    Quote Originally Posted by Buckwald View Post
    There is no "YOU REACHED LEVEL 20" But, I have AR, DP and all 3 talisman pieces at SL 8. Which is a total of 180 SP I've spent. Since you get 1 SP for full bar that means I'm on level 180 ... There's 12 categories in the SP pane which means there's a total of "432" "levels" to gain.

    So, to those of us who have participated in the CBT or Weekend betas, we know that there really is no level system and people will just spin it, in the fashion I just did.
    So what is the difference between levels and those SPs? Name? Quantity?
    I have enough of EA ruining great franchises and studios, forcing DRM and Origin on their games, releasing incomplete games only to sell day-1 DLCs or spill dozens of DLCs, and then saying it, and microtransactions, is what players want, stopping players from giving EA games poor reviews, as well as deflecting complaints with cheap PR tricks.

    I'm not going to buy any game by EA as long as they continue those practices.

  7. #987
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    Quote Originally Posted by procne View Post
    So what is the difference between levels and those SPs? Name? Quantity?
    There a shitload of different ways you can spend SP. The combinations are countless. Granted, once you max out on SP, then yes you've "maxed" SP, but it would take A LOT of playtime to get there.

    For the 9 weapon types, there are two roles per weapon that require 55 SP to fill each. That's 990 SP. Then there are 3 talisman types that require 55 SP each, which is 165. That's a total of 1155 SP. That's a lot of different combinations of which order you fill them in. Somebody could claim they have spent 55 SP; that could be maxed out assault rifle healing, or 4 or 5 points in everything. That is a HUGE difference.
    Last edited by Sj; 2012-06-08 at 04:48 PM.

  8. #988
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    Quote Originally Posted by procne View Post
    So what is the difference between levels and those SPs? Name? Quantity?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahjane View Post
    There a shitload of different ways you can spend SP. The combinations are countless. Granted, once you max out on SP, then yes you've "maxed" SP, but it would take A LOT of playtime to get there.
    Exactly. You put SP into Weapons and your Talisman equipment in order to equip the next higher QL (quality level). They also give extra bonuses depending on the tree.

    Example:

    AR has a damage tree which adds an explosive round that increases in damage as you increase your SL and it has a heal tree which increases the effectiveness of your leech heals.

    Shotguns has a damage tree that I think increases the damage the enemies take (not sure) it also has a "support" tree which reduces the damage dealt by enemies.

    You can use any of the 9 weapons and build on any of the 9 weapons. You can equip any two at a time. So, you can make a balanced even build with a lot of skill sets or focus on a "deck".

    And I didn't do my math correctly, there's way more SP to earn. I'll break it down:

    Each SL requires the points associated with that level: SL 1 = 1 point, SL 2 = 2 points. 10 levels. So yeah that's 55 per tree.

    Blades (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.
    Hammers (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.
    Fists (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.

    Assault Rifles (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.
    Pistols (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.
    Shotguns (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.

    Blood Magic (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.
    Chaos Magic (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.
    Elementalism (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.

    Head Talisman (1 tree) 55 SP needed to max.
    Major Talisman (1 tree) 55 SP needed to max.
    Minor Talisman (1 tree) 55 SP needed to max.

    990 for weapons. 165 for gear. 1155 "levels". Yeah. I have 66.5 hours logged on my .9 character. I have 5 single trees at SL 8, Level 180 lol.

    There are no levels. This is just an example of how people love to spin info.
    Last edited by Buckwald; 2012-06-08 at 05:36 PM.

  9. #989
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    I see a lot of "I want something different from WoW, but I don't like this game because it's different from WoW."

  10. #990
    I'd rather go with "TSW is not that different from WoW as people want to paint it"

    Imagine that your WoW character can level up in any of 10 classes. You just select a class, experience you gain goes towards that class, and you can use abilities and talents of this class.
    That's how it works in TSW. You have those 9 weapon trees (classes), which you can level up. And then you choose skills to use from those trees.
    So instead of leveling other chars for other classes you can make 1 char and choose with it which class to level.

    There are many games which tried this before.

    It's not classless because all builds will follow some archetypes and concentrate on specific trees. At most you can say that it's multiclassing because you can combine 2 or 3 classes.

    It's not leveless because you have to earn experience to unlock more SPs, 1 by 1. The more SPs you unlock the more powerful your char becomes. And there is a cap on how many skills you can use. Works like levels to me.

    Game is huge? I bet that if I summed all talents, abilities and glyphs from WoW I would get higher number than 1155.
    Combinations of glyphs and talents for each class are countless as well (or were before Cata). But the number of possible options doesn't matter. Number of viable options does. WoW offers 30 talent trees. We shall see if TSW will offer that many viable builds.
    I have enough of EA ruining great franchises and studios, forcing DRM and Origin on their games, releasing incomplete games only to sell day-1 DLCs or spill dozens of DLCs, and then saying it, and microtransactions, is what players want, stopping players from giving EA games poor reviews, as well as deflecting complaints with cheap PR tricks.

    I'm not going to buy any game by EA as long as they continue those practices.

  11. #991
    Scarab Lord Buckwald's Avatar
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    I never even brought up Abilities. Just talked about Skills.

    There are 3 Ability Trees in the Ability wheel: Magic, Ranged, Melee.

    Each Tree has 2 sub trees. Those sub trees are broken down into 6 other sections.

    Each Tree has a total of 168 total abilities that you can learn (broken down into 56 per sub tree). So, that's 168 total possibilities per main tree for a grand total of 504 tree specific abilities. Then there are 3 "misc" trees (don't require a specific weapon) with 7 abilities each for a total of 21. TOTAL 525 Abilities you can learn.

    Numbers mean very little, It's just to show that you can easily swap between any weapon and any skill set you want. 36 total combinations of weapon abilities (not include the misc).

    Code:
    Fist + Hammer
    Fist + Blade
    Fist + Shotgun
    Fist + AR
    Fist + Pistol
    Fist + Chaos
    Fist + Blood
    Fist + Elemental
    
    
    Hammer + Blade
    Hammer + Shotgun
    Hammer + AR
    Hammer + Pistol
    Hammer + Chaos
    Hammer + Blood
    Hammer + Elemental
    
    
    Blade + Shotgun
    Blade + AR
    Blade + Pistol
    Blade + Chaos
    Blade + Blood
    Blade + Elemental
    
    
    Shotgun + AR
    Shotgun + Pistol
    Shotgun + Chaos
    Shotgun + Blood
    Shotgun + Elemental
    
    
    AR + Pistol
    AR + Chaos
    AR + Blood
    AR + Elemental
    
    
    Pistol + Chaos
    Pistol + Blood
    Pistol + Elemental
    
    
    Choas + Blood
    Choas + Elemental
    
    
    Blood + Elemental
    So, let's say you JUST put AP into AR + Pistol. You have a total of 133 abilities at your disposal. I'll break that down

    56 for pistol
    56 for AR
    21 in the 3 misc trees

    You can have 7 active and 7 passive abilities on your "hotbar". I don't even know how to break out the possibilities on that one.

    Also, each weapon tree has passives that don't require a weapon. For Example, fists has a passive that gives you a HoT that heals you for X amount over 10 seconds for each hit you land, stacks 5 times.

    So, I can use that with ANY weapon. Trust me when I say, that the possibilities are insane. I didn't know you could take passive talents and glyphs from other classes in ANYOTHER game (if there is one let me know... maybe UO?) and use them across the board.
    Last edited by Buckwald; 2012-06-08 at 06:29 PM.

  12. #992
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    Quote Originally Posted by procne View Post
    I'd rather go with "TSW is not that different from WoW as people want to paint it"
    Of course it isn't, the major differences are setting and character progression. It's still an MMO with tab targetting and action bars.

    Imagine that your WoW character can level up in any of 10 classes. You just select a class, experience you gain goes towards that class, and you can use abilities and talents of this class.
    That's how it works in TSW. You have those 9 weapon trees (classes), which you can level up. And then you choose skills to use from those trees.
    So instead of leveling other chars for other classes you can make 1 char and choose with it which class to level.
    What you fail to mention is WoW doesn't give you as much of a choice. TSW, you develop your character's "classes," as you choose to put it, as you see fit. There's no "you have to put 20 points here before moving on" like there is in WoW. And weapon types are more comparable to specs that actual classes, and you can use two at a time, with passive abilities from any weapon in the game.


    There are many games which tried this before.
    That's irrelevant.

    It's not classless because all builds will follow some archetypes and concentrate on specific trees. At most you can say that it's multiclassing because you can combine 2 or 3 classes.
    It is classless because you're not restricted. That's what a class is.

    It's not leveless because you have to earn experience to unlock more SPs, 1 by 1. The more SPs you unlock the more powerful your char becomes. And there is a cap on how many skills you can use. Works like levels to me.
    You don't gain power by earning XP or AP. You gain power by spending AP. If you want to stubbornly play semantics, then I will too. Every time your bar fills up, there is no change to your base stats. Ever. Not levels, but more akin to weapon proficiency.

    Game is huge? I bet that if I summed all talents, abilities and glyphs from WoW I would get higher number than 1155.
    Combinations of glyphs and talents for each class are countless as well (or were before Cata). But the number of possible options doesn't matter. Number of viable options does. WoW offers 30 talent trees. We shall see if TSW will offer that many viable builds.
    So what if WoW has more? Quantity != quality. That's why the 7 & 7 setup is more interesting than having 4 action bars full of abilities you rarely use more than 5 or 6 of. Instead of being twitch-based combat, there's planning and experimenting involved. Those days were gone in WoW when they got rid of the 71-point talent system.


    I'm not saying TSW is some perfect gem of character development, or anything of that sort. Yes, there are barriers and limitations in place, and yes SP does seem like levels. Funcom would've been daft not to change the SP system into what it is now. If they didn't institute this system, people could've logged on and equipped high-end equipment before they did a single mission. This is not an instant-gratification game. People are just going to have to get over it.

    You shouldn't be comparing MMOs anyways. You'll never find satisfaction in gaming that way.

  13. #993
    I've noticed this too. You discover as you go.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-08 at 08:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckwald View Post
    Exactly. You put SP into Weapons and your Talisman equipment in order to equip the next higher QL (quality level). They also give extra bonuses depending on the tree.

    Example:

    AR has a damage tree which adds an explosive round that increases in damage as you increase your SL and it has a heal tree which increases the effectiveness of your leech heals.

    Shotguns has a damage tree that I think increases the damage the enemies take (not sure) it also has a "support" tree which reduces the damage dealt by enemies.

    You can use any of the 9 weapons and build on any of the 9 weapons. You can equip any two at a time. So, you can make a balanced even build with a lot of skill sets or focus on a "deck".

    And I didn't do my math correctly, there's way more SP to earn. I'll break it down:

    Each SL requires the points associated with that level: SL 1 = 1 point, SL 2 = 2 points. 10 levels. So yeah that's 55 per tree.

    Blades (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.
    Hammers (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.
    Fists (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.

    Assault Rifles (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.
    Pistols (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.
    Shotguns (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.

    Blood Magic (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.
    Chaos Magic (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.
    Elementalism (2 "trees") 55 x 2 = 110 SP needed to max.

    Head Talisman (1 tree) 55 SP needed to max.
    Major Talisman (1 tree) 55 SP needed to max.
    Minor Talisman (1 tree) 55 SP needed to max.

    990 for weapons. 165 for gear. 1155 "levels". Yeah. I have 66.5 hours logged on my .9 character. I have 5 single trees at SL 8, Level 180 lol.

    There are no levels. This is just an example of how people love to spin info.
    brb pinning this on mmo-rpg nice post

  14. #994
    The post by procne is just a gross simplification and generalization of what is in TSW. there is nothing else like the skill system in any other game I have ever seen. the sheer number of possibility's are enormous. and yes if people are going to be stupid and pull facts like " game X has 10 classes and each has Y number of ability's and in my little made up fantasy world they all come out to the same as TSW" yes yes that's all well in good but in the here and now, you don't have the choice other than TSW. nothing comes close to the choice you have in TSW. you can be multiple damage types, tanks, off tanks, healers, healer tanks, healer dps, a healing tank dpser in a pink neon bally dress, any type of hybrid you want, the number of ability's that can work with one another is just mind blowing. in PVE it turns the game on its head. you can change any time you are out of combat by just swapping in and out ability's in seconds. in PVP you really have to think what you could be up against. and I don't mean silly examples that might have been seen in beta. with broken ability's that 1 shot classes. when everything is more balanced and working as intended not OP exploits. its going to be intense I find it highly unlikely there will be a handful of builds that will be the be all and end all, its just to big.

  15. #995
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahjane View Post
    What you fail to mention is WoW doesn't give you as much of a choice. TSW, you develop your character's "classes," as you choose to put it, as you see fit. There's no "you have to put 20 points here before moving on" like there is in WoW. And weapon types are more comparable to specs that actual classes, and you can use two at a time, with passive abilities from any weapon in the game.
    It does give me a choice. I can play any of the 10 or 11 classes, and any of 3 specs for them. In TSW you have to change spec, in WoW I have to change char. It's not that big of a difference.

    You don't gain power by earning XP or AP. You gain power by spending AP. If you want to stubbornly play semantics, then I will too. Every time your bar fills up, there is no change to your base stats. Ever. Not levels, but more akin to weapon proficiency.
    And to spend those AP you need to gain them first. Like in Diablo 2 your character doesn't become powerful by gaining skill points, but by spending them. Character with more APs is more powerful because he can use better gear and has more, and better, abilities. At some point character has APs for all the skills it wanted, and there "leveling" plateaus. But fine, I will call them levels, you won't. Matter of semantics, as you said.
    So what if WoW has more? Quantity != quality. That's why the 7 & 7 setup is more interesting than having 4 action bars full of abilities you rarely use more than 5 or 6 of. Instead of being twitch-based combat, there's planning and experimenting involved. Those days were gone in WoW when they got rid of the 71-point talent system.
    I'm afraid this will not last long. Once cookie cutter specs are designed there will no longer be much freedom. Look forward to guilds forcing particular specs on their members, just like it's in WoW

    I'm not saying TSW is some perfect gem of character development, or anything of that sort. Yes, there are barriers and limitations in place, and yes SP does seem like levels. Funcom would've been daft not to change the SP system into what it is now. If they didn't institute this system, people could've logged on and equipped high-end equipment before they did a single mission. This is not an instant-gratification game. People are just going to have to get over it.
    And I'm not saying it's bad or that it sucks. I'm not even saying character development is bad. No, it's quite interesting. Just that it's not that revolutionary and different from other games. Oh, and I'm really annoyed by game producers who present their games like real gems, often using adjectives like "revolutionary", "ground breaking", "jaw dropping", "brings gaming to a new level".
    I have learned that best way to describe the game is to simplify and generalize all the claims of developers. Because that's what they usually do - combine some used ideas, and call this combination "revolutionary".

    @Jailbuild There are multiple potential choices, but do you honestly believe that few months after release people won't come up with few builds that are much better than others? Do you really believe that Funcom will be able to balance all of them and will keep doing that? That they will keep updating abilities and maintaining this "freedom" months after release? Blizzard is not capable of doing this for all those years, even with experience from balancing games like starcraft and warcraft 3.
    I have enough of EA ruining great franchises and studios, forcing DRM and Origin on their games, releasing incomplete games only to sell day-1 DLCs or spill dozens of DLCs, and then saying it, and microtransactions, is what players want, stopping players from giving EA games poor reviews, as well as deflecting complaints with cheap PR tricks.

    I'm not going to buy any game by EA as long as they continue those practices.

  16. #996
    Scarab Lord Buckwald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by procne View Post
    It does give me a choice. I can play any of the 10 or 11 classes, and any of 3 specs for them. In TSW you have to change spec, in WoW I have to change char. It's not that big of a difference.
    Well, it kind of is. You'd have to level 2 toons to end level to actually use them for WoW's endgame. Whereas in TSW, you don't have to start at level 1. You can have every slot full of QL10 items for your "DPS" set and get gear and skills for a "tank" set. And even then you can craft every single piece of gear. And the materials and crafting are insanely easy.


    Quote Originally Posted by procne View Post
    And to spend those AP you need to gain them first. Like in Diablo 2 your character doesn't become powerful by gaining skill points, but by spending them. Character with more APs is more powerful because he can use better gear and has more, and better, abilities. At some point character has APs for all the skills it wanted, and there "leveling" plateaus. But fine, I will call them levels, you won't. Matter of semantics, as you said.
    When people say "leveling" you gained increased stats, health, mana or whatever. You gain absolutely ZERO stat increases as you spend AP or SP. Your "stats" increase as you get better gear. There's no "strength" type stats. There's no good way to say "Blue Mountain is a level X zone". Best thing you could do is take the average SL of your Gear, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by procne View Post
    I'm afraid this will not last long. Once cookie cutter specs are designed there will no longer be much freedom. Look forward to guilds forcing particular specs on their members, just like it's in WoW
    Well, there are already cookie cutter specs. They are called Decks. But, you aren't restricted to them. And FC has already said not all specs will work in all situations. As I pointed out in a previous post, if a person gains ALL the skills and ALL the abilities there's an endless amount of specs and unless people want to compare EVERY single possibility, there's not going to be a definitive "THIS RANGED AOE SPEC IS THE BEST". No more "DW Frost or Unholy are THE raid specs for DKs".

    Quote Originally Posted by procne View Post
    And I'm not saying it's bad or that it sucks. I'm not even saying character development is bad. No, it's quite interesting. Just that it's not that revolutionary and different from other games. Oh, and I'm really annoyed by game producers who present their games like real gems, often using adjectives like "revolutionary", "ground breaking", "jaw dropping", "brings gaming to a new level".
    I have learned that best way to describe the game is to simplify and generalize all the claims of developers. Because that's what they usually do - combine some used ideas, and call this combination "revolutionary".
    I can't think of any other game that lets you play "all the classes" and gives you the amount of freedom to pick and choose all of your skills. In FFXI and FFXIV you can do any job on 1 character, but you are still restricted to the skills you have available. I don't think I've seen FC call it revolutionary, I mean they might have but I just haven't seen it. They've said you can play how you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by procne View Post
    @Jailbuild There are multiple potential choices, but do you honestly believe that few months after release people won't come up with few builds that are much better than others? Do you really believe that Funcom will be able to balance all of them and will keep doing that? That they will keep updating abilities and maintaining this "freedom" months after release? Blizzard is not capable of doing this for all those years, even with experience from balancing games like starcraft and warcraft 3.
    They've been good, so far, in the beta to address this. But yeah, I foresee a problem if they try to balance abilities like Blizzard does in WoW. "OMG! IT'S OP IN PVP NERF!!" "YOU NERFED ME BECAUSE OF PVP NOW I CAN'T RAID!" I hate that.

  17. #997
    well that's the thing they very well mey not balance ability's like blizzard, different game, different engine, different system, I don't see why it would be the same for balancing, cant really tell so no point in speculation. but so far it had been decent. and yeah I really hate the nerf bat and more so the whinny people who QQ and quite game over it. I have seen people whining on vent etc about how they are quieting games because they can no long cast a full HP heal on one cast, or 1 shot people. just ridiculous. but in blizzards defense, in recent years they improved the balancing, especially when they changed the way ability's do things on the PVP/arena play field. so it didn't interact in the same way with PVE/raiding etc

  18. #998
    The skill system reminds me a lot of how GW1 sort of works. Hundreds of skills (GW1 had something like 1500 total abilities) but only 8 skill slots, and the game really revolved around just founding good builds that worked well together in order to beat something.

  19. #999
    Scarab Lord Buckwald's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong, the "trinity" is still alive and kicking in TSW. There are clear cut tanks, dps and healers. But, you can have hybrid DPS/Tanks/Healers. Which, yeah games in the past have done. But, it seems to work well, so far.

  20. #1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buckwald View Post
    They've been good, so far, in the beta to address this. But yeah, I foresee a problem if they try to balance abilities like Blizzard does in WoW. "OMG! IT'S OP IN PVP NERF!!" "YOU NERFED ME BECAUSE OF PVP NOW I CAN'T RAID!" I hate that.

    From what I understand is that in PvP they pretty much equalize everybody's gear. Shouldn't be a problem.

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