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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by rated View Post
    This is not a theorycrafting game. It's mathematically proven that as a stam stacker you'll be taking more damage and being more of a mana sponge than being a tank who tries to mitigate the most damage possible.

    As a tank that should be one of your biggest concerns, but I guess like your last sentance said, you dont care.
    I agree with you. The less damage you take, the better.
    But damage mitigation doesn't help alot if you get nuked down in 3 seconds.
    More stamina gives the healer a chance to get some heals off, which actually is a healers job.

    As a healers PoV I would rather heal a stamina stacking tank than a avoidance stacking one ( Talking in normal/Zandalari dungeons).
    When it comes to raid I would rather see a tank with a lot of avoidance > a lot of stamina.

    It doesn't change the fact, that more health makes you able to take more/bigger hits, where avoidance makes you take less hits, but you will get hit for more, when it happens.

    The math might say one thing, but it's all about prefferences as I see it.

  2. #42
    You still have an unused Chim eye and no enchant on shoulders. Other than that, I don't really know what your problem is. It may be your way you attack. You want to keep a 3 stack lacerate pulverize at all times (at least as much as possible), and at least 1 stack of lacerate on each thing you are tanking that will not be CC'd, then spam maul and mangle as much as you possible can (and for AOE, throw in some swipe and thrash). The more you crit, and the higher your crit %, the more you will SD and the less you will take. Our last heroic nef kill I think I absorbed a little over a million damage (plus around 440k in healing from leader of the pack). That's nearly 20% of the damage I took absorbed or healed myself. I use a stam potion and two stam trinkets on that fight as well. On the fights where I use agi flask and my agi \ hit and agi \ crit proc trinkets, the % is much higher.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Baenesur View Post
    I agree with you. The less damage you take, the better.
    But damage mitigation doesn't help alot if you get nuked down in 3 seconds.
    More stamina gives the healer a chance to get some heals off, which actually is a healers job.

    As a healers PoV I would rather heal a stamina stacking tank than a avoidance stacking one ( Talking in normal/Zandalari dungeons).
    When it comes to raid I would rather see a tank with a lot of avoidance > a lot of stamina.

    It doesn't change the fact, that more health makes you able to take more/bigger hits, where avoidance makes you take less hits, but you will get hit for more, when it happens.

    The math might say one thing, but it's all about prefferences as I see it.
    Actually, more avoidance/mitigation helps gets heals off. Stamina only 'looks' good on paper.

    For example, if you don't think mitigation stats are all that helpful, try healing a full pvp gear/stamina stacking tank. Trust me, it's 'very' noticeable how much damage they are tanking and how hard it is to heal them.

    There are really only two times I could see stamina > avoidance, is if your CCing everything in heroics and tanking things one at a time. As a healer, you won't have any time in between your casts, but they wouldn't be too hard to heal that's for sure. The second is if your taking massive amounts of non-physical magic damage, such as Electrocute, Ground Pound etc since no one can really mitigate magic damage except through a cooldown. And most of the time, magic damage is easily avoidable.

    Since most people multi-tank now a days, and a lot of fights 'require' you to multi-tank (Jan'ali the dragonhawk boss is a good example) you will notice very quickly that stamina tanks are much harder to heal with gear being equal to one another.


    Also, this is directed at Banesaur still, I just realized you said something which makes zero sense. Stamina DOES NOT reduce damage dealt to you. It just increases your max health cap. Statistically speaking, avoidance/mitigation 'reduces' overall damage taken compared to stamina stacking in the same amount of time. Hands down, I would rather heal an avoidance/mitigation tank rather than a stamina stacker.

    Note : I play both a bear tank and a healer. I can see the difference between stamina and avoidance tanking easily.
    Last edited by BkWiz; 2011-05-30 at 11:07 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaymzBond View Post
    i always end up getting kicked when i try to warn or ask them about cc
    Better to be kicked, or leave, than stick around with a group of people who think they're so elite that your suggestions are worthless. Even if I think I can survive pulls without CC, I ask the healer... or I gauge performance; such as in Grim Batol, I pull the first 3-pack of dragonkin and see how the group handles it and decide how much CC the group needs (computed between my damage taken, the dps speed in killing, and the healer's ability to handle the damage) - it's a good pull for that as it has substantial group damage.

  5. #45
    I would say replace the worm trinket with fluid death for almost all fights and then for something like chimeron use the stam trinket and take double atks ( I have found that i can dodge quite a few of them which really helps healers put a 67 agi gem in the JC neck, the 40 agi gem doesnt make it better than V&T. In regards to the agi over stam shoulders enchant, I say stamina while agility is by far better for you at your gear levels, stam is still needed


    As a healers PoV I would rather heal a stamina stacking tank than a avoidance stacking one ( Talking in normal/Zandalari dungeons).
    When it comes to raid I would rather see a tank with a lot of avoidance > a lot of stamina.
    No, I have tried to heal a stamina tank...it doesnt work when they are getting stepped on for 30-40k hits all the time, my GM's feral tank has gone for more or less full agity and he got slated in a dungeon for "gemming for DPS"...the healer said sorry after the first big pack when he saw that he needed very little healing due to avoidance and more AP = bigger SD shield
    Last edited by Archermit; 2011-05-30 at 11:38 PM.

  6. #46
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    just make sure you're keeping demo roar up and pulverize up at all times.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Archermit View Post
    I would say replace the worm trinket with fluid death for almost all fights and then for something like chimeron use the stam trinket and take double atks ( I have found that i can dodge quite a few of them which really helps healers put a 67 agi gem in the JC neck, the 40 agi gem doesnt make it better than V&T. In regards to the agi over stam shoulders enchant, I say stamina while agility is by far better for you at your gear levels, stam is still needed




    No, I have tried to heal a stamina tank...it doesnt work when they are getting stepped on for 30-40k hits all the time, my GM's feral tank has gone for more or less full agity and he got slated in a dungeon for "gemming for DPS"...the healer said sorry after the first big pack when he saw that he needed very little healing due to avoidance and more AP = bigger SD shield
    That sounds like me. I have around 170k hps buffed in bear form, yet I am 9\13 heroic. My double agi trinkets, and a few agi \ sta gems makes my mitigation \ avoidance nutty, I do crazy threat (and dps, pulled 15k effective DPS on heroic V&T), and my health is not spiky.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by revilfour View Post
    I have trouble in heroics not raids. In Za i had a bitch of a time with Jan'alai <Dragonhawk Avatar>, I just took to much dmg with the adds that came out and we wiped like 5 times before calling it. In heroics i bring along my trusty tree friend who can heal me through it all, or could untill just recently. He allways goes oom after each pull. and for raids i have a druid and Hpally for healz on me. What healz should i choose for heroics? And here is my problem, Blizz nerfed our AoE aggro so they are pushing us away from Off tanks. But at the same time we dont out migitate or really bring anything more to the table than other tanks besides our high dps. I know that high end guilds run a Bear as MT cuz the scaling moves are extreemly strong with high end gear, but why are they nerfing that now? why is the state of bear's so weak atm?
    I tank on my druid, and have some specific advice for the dragonhawk boss in ZA. When the adds come, move into the entrance of the bridge to pick them up (after getting the dps to stop adds coming out from both sides of course). When you pick them up do it with swipe/thrash/swipe - that should be enough for the first big group to stick to you. Save your aoe for when the next group comes out, and don't worry too much about the mobs that you just hit. It can be stressful watching the thrash cooldown complete, but it will work fine. I also pop survival instincts when I have about 8 or 9 of the mobs on me. I use frenzied regeneration later, when the adds spawn from the other side.

    In my raid group I usually offtank on my druid. The other tank is a pally and he's not as used to grabbing adds as I am. It is possible to get all the whelps on Halfus or the adds on Maloriak or Magmaw easily enough, and the druid combination of charge, skull bash and stampeding roar really help with picking up adds and kiting them when necessary. The swipe cooldown change in 4.1 also allows a druid to hit with 3 aoe abilities in 3 global cooldowns, which did make a quality of life change for add tanking.

    Something else that really helped me with add tanking - I installed the ThreatPlates addon. Having a color change when a mob is about to run away from me made life much easier.

    I hope this helps!

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWiz View Post
    Also, this is directed at Banesaur still, I just realized you said something which makes zero sense. Stamina DOES NOT reduce damage dealt to you. It just increases your max health cap. Statistically speaking, avoidance/mitigation 'reduces' overall damage taken compared to stamina stacking in the same amount of time. Hands down, I would rather heal an avoidance/mitigation tank rather than a stamina stacker.

    Note : I play both a bear tank and a healer. I can see the difference between stamina and avoidance tanking easily.
    I made a misstype there. What I meant is of course that you get hit for more % of your health while stacking avoidance. It is indeed the same ammount, but the healer don't have to worry that fast if you stack stamina.

    Also, what I wrote about tanks getting bursted down in 3 seconds. It happens.
    Your healthpool is constant. Avoidance is RNG.

    The more avoidance you got, the less RNG influences.
    But with me loosing 45k health going from avoidance/armor gem/reinforce where I am only gaining 5,5% dodge I would still stick with stamina.

    I play resto druid aswell, as I wrote before, and I still stick to my opinion about stamina stacking tanks > avoidance. Again, this is when we talk about an average ilvl of ~350. If you get a full raid geared tank, the RNG will influence less, as stated right before, and there I can feel a difference.

    But as the OP clearly aint fully raid geared, I would preffer to heal him in a stamina set.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Baenesur View Post
    It will only take a ~3% dodge loss to get hit/expertise capped if you have some items with those stats on them already. It's a massive threat boost, and much more uptime for Savage Defense.
    This is not true, gaining exp/hit will convert misses to hits*(Not crits), unless you have as much crit% as you do % to hit the boss. IE not going to happen.
    Thus getting more exp/hit does not give you more savage defense procs.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzcon2011 View Post
    Yeah as a healer blizzard really needs to buff druid avoidances and such, iv seen a bear tank with over 180hp get killed in 3 globals in stonecore.
    Im gonna guess that was Ozruk and Did he move from any of the mechanics ...... ??

    OT: Ive play all tank classes atm and i have realised that bears to take a bit more dmg than the other classes but everything that can help has been stated, reforge anything you can to doge ( pref worst stat for you obvss ) and if dodge is present then mastery, change you meta and get rep with therazane to get a decent shoulder enchant.

    also the whole ZG and ZA hc thing isnt just you, i am 357 on my pala tank and on some pulls like the gauntlet without CC, i sit there and watch my Hp drop like a sack of S**T, the new hcs are meant to be challenging hence the mega dmg, just use CC's ( dont break them ) position well and you should be fine.

  12. #52
    The replys you have gotten in this thread makes me sad. Most of the people who have attempted to help you clearly haunt done any research themselves or have little to ZERO experience with Druid tanks.

    If you have read the bear sticky on these forums you would have zero questions. If you are too lazy to read that sticky then you may not even get to this post but I hope you do.

    Your meta gem is bad. Get the austere. It's not for the stamina..it's for the 2% melee reduction with the armor that is invaluable; it's not an optional thing. Also, you must must must reforge the worst stats you have to dodge. If you haunt reforged every piece to have dodge, then you're bad. The list to reforge is first, haste... Then hit, then either crit or exp. Only ONLY reforge mastery to dodge when mastery is the only stat on the item that is reforgeable. Gem for agility in red sokets, blue sockets should be a shifting demonseye and your 2 required yellow sockets should be the 20 agi 20 mastery gems. GO for agility trinkets such as fluid death or tias grace heroic If you can't get anything better.
    That's gearing. That's all it is.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by cquirki View Post
    your 2 required yellow sockets should be the 20 agi 20 mastery gems.
    20 agi/20 dodge > 20 agi/20 mastery.

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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslick View Post
    Yeah, glyph of barkskin isn't really doing anything when you're crit-immune via Thick Hide.

    But while I agee that glyph of FR is essential for tanking raids, given that the OP is expressing difficulties in the troll heroics I'd recommend it not be glyphed there, instead choosing perhaps glyph of rebirth. 10% more healing taken from a single healer who is also responsible for healing 4 others just isn't that valuable a cooldown when compared to the amount of healing FR provideds unglyphed (especially when factoring in the Luck of the Draw buff), though it's important to be aware of the temporary rage starvation that may result.
    Sorry i just had to log in and check, Frenzied Regen Glyph states "Healing effects on you are 30% more powerful but causes your Frenzied Regeneration to no longer convert rage into health". So its mandatory, regardless of the situation. Your major's should be Maul, Rebirth and Frenzied regen - i say that loosely because Maul isn't always a great glyph to have when there is alot of CC around. Swap it out for Thorns / Feral Charge or Faerie Fire depending on the fight

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Richmond View Post
    Sorry i just had to log in and check, Frenzied Regen Glyph states "Healing effects on you are 30% more powerful but causes your Frenzied Regeneration to no longer convert rage into health". So its mandatory, regardless of the situation. Your major's should be Maul, Rebirth and Frenzied regen - i say that loosely because Maul isn't always a great glyph to have when there is alot of CC around. Swap it out for Thorns / Feral Charge or Faerie Fire depending on the fight
    Question on the Frenzied Regen glyph - is that 30% healing buff constant, or only when frenzied regen is active? Even if it's only when frenzied regen is active, I'll probably switch to it anyway, since FR is such a rage sink that it's not worth using, unglyped, imo.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Embermoon View Post
    Question on the Frenzied Regen glyph - is that 30% healing buff constant, or only when frenzied regen is active? Even if it's only when frenzied regen is active, I'll probably switch to it anyway, since FR is such a rage sink that it's not worth using, unglyped, imo.
    Only when FR is active.

  17. #57
    Thanks, Katarn - I was 99.99% sure that would be the case, or the glyph would be horrendously OP. Still worth it, though.

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