The legendary staff recipient, a mathematical approach?

[Brett Skullcrack]

I know most guilds have already factored in some basic variables such as attendance and performance, however would it be possible to create a formula where you can substitute values to get a definitive end result, such as a ranking/score and compare that to the other contenders for the staff.

Basically I'm asking, is this possible? And if so, how?

It is not. All that such approach does is to lend false sense of objectivity and legitimacy to an essentially random choice. You can create an infinite number of such formulas, each equally justifiable and believable.

For some reason orange pixels seem to bring out loot whores in rational people. Yes the legendaries have a large impact on individual performance, but no, it won't make a difference to your overall raid. You can kill the bosses with a legendary in your raid or without one.

That's why Blizzard's approach to legendaries sucks, they essentially put in one item that gives a player a huge advantage against others. That causes loot whoring, it means classes/players without a legendary cannot compete on personal level on dps/hps meters, it means the person who got the legendary "looted his skill" and it causes useless drama. A much better approach would be to have a weapon that's equivalent to epic weapons, but that gives some great raid utility so that the raid benefits from it but the individual player's numbers aren't distorted.

[Loomis]

I hope they give it to shadow priests.

Love a good shadow priest

[Deleted]

I seriously wonder if and how it will work on dots and channeled spells.
Can it copy a Bane of Doom? Can it copy a Drain Soul?
Either of those spells would be some serious dps boost, easily rivaling what a mage with crits can throw around.
But if it can't proc on those, then Affdrain locks and Spriests have barely any benefit.

[Deleted]

Very easy:
Analyze your Guilds WorldOfLogs and give it to your Caster DD with the most dmg on most of your fights.

But in Reality it will go in most of all times to one of the guild officiers.

[Callypso]

Very easy:
Analyze your Guilds WorldOfLogs and give it to your Caster DD with the most dmg on most of your fights.

But in Reality it will go in most of all times to one of the guild officiers.

Who, assuming your guild structure is somewhat typical, should be among the same list of people, possibly with highest attendency among them.


Imho, legendaries should go to the people in a guild who meet the following requirements, in this order:

- The highest attendecy to raids (So you actually get to see that legendary in action almost every raid)
- The longest loyalty to the guild (So you avoid your legendary leaving the guild 1 week after you obtain it.....)
- The most skilled player in the guild (Doh, the better the player the more use will come out of it)

Just because someone is topping the charts, doesn't mean they are qualified to get the legendary by default. Officers typically meet all the requirements above, more so than the 'normal' raiders, even if there can be some exceptions.

[Spl4sh3r]

We don't know what, exactly, it can copy. Duplication/'casting' effects in game have had a strange history, and I'd be surprised if this is any different.

E.g.: Suppose it can just copy any damage spell you cast.
-How does that impact channeled spells?
-What about DOTs, especially "limited to one" dots like Devouring Plague?
*If it does duplicate DOTs, can those duplicates proc things, such as SW:P proccing orbs, or Flame Shock resetting LvB cooldown?
-Do the procs crit in line with their source spell, or do they function separately?
-Can the procs trigger effects like our normal spells, e.g., does a copied pyroblast crit proc ignite?
etc..

This, we have no clue of how and what it copies so we can't create or even estimate a formula for who it is best for. But it's safe to assume that it must effect DoT's since otherwise it would be bad for alot of classes and it is meant to be a caster legendary and DoT's are spells that casters use. If those DoT's just refresh current ones it's like it didn't copy at all because you just refreshed the spell before it got copied in the first place :P

It is also safe to assume that it will have an inner cooldown since otherwise the proc would be so bad since it would have to have a really low chance of actually proccing. With this you can calculate if a instant big crit is better than a long DoT in terms of damage (not DPS since damage is better to calculate)

[Deleted]

I think it will have a 30-45 second ICD

Why do you think it will? I see no reason why it should have an ICD at all.

Referring to how it works, sure, we all don´t know, we only have things like this:

Wrath of Tarecgosa
45 yd range
Deals 0 Arcane damage to an enemy.

I think the most realistic way would be, that you will have a chance to trigger the effect every time something deals damage, instead of every time you finished casting a spell. When the effect procs, you fire something like an arcane bolt at the target dealing the same damage as the spell that triggered the effect.

That we will see two Fire Balls flying seems very unlikely to me, especially having the same DoT active on the target at the same time. The arcane bolt thing is easy to implement and fair for all casters, if there is no ICD.

[Vulgrym]

Class and spec benefit are an important consideration, but still only one consideration.

As others have pointed out, it's crucial to consider tenure, consistency, stability, contribution (in and out of game) and perhaps other guild-specific factors when making this decision. As long as you're transparent about the process and identify the criteria, I think people will be reasonable and understanding.

[Deleted]

Why do you think it will? I see no reason why it should have an ICD at all.

Because performance boosting procs tend to have ICDs.

I think the most realistic way would be, that you will have a chance to trigger the effect every time something deals damage, instead of every time you finished casting a spell. When the effect procs, you fire something like an arcane bolt at the target dealing the same damage as the spell that triggered the effect.

That we will see two Fire Balls flying seems very unlikely to me, especially having the same DoT active on the target at the same time. The arcane bolt thing is easy to implement and fair for all casters, if there is no ICD.

Why would 2 fireballs flying off be weird? Or 2 of the same dot? I don't see any part of that as being weird, the mage 8pc of T2 had that effect. Duplicating a DPS spell would be a pretty nifty mechanic for a legendary. It'd be stupid for it to duplicate non-DPS spells like shields, but a standard DPS nuke or DoT should all be copiable.

On the other hand having a proc with no ICD that triggers an arcane bolt of dmg is a terrible idea, that would make it vastly better for some classes than it would for others, it would all depend on how many spells per minute you cast. If you're gonna make it just cast a generic effect then it HAS to have an ICD for balance purposes.

[Mavett]

The copied spell deals its damage in form of arcane damage, if the proc scales from mastery then i guess arcane mages will be in priority for it along with boomkins.

[Deleted]

Because performance boosting procs tend to have ICDs.

For most of these procs it actually makes sense to have an ICD. Because these "performance boosting procs" trigger an effect that lasts for x seconds instead of effecting one spell or the next 5 spells. Without an ICD classes who deal damage more frequently would have more uptime of the proc while they benefit the same from each proc. With an ICD all classes benefit from these procs about the same.

ICD for procs like power torrent -> better balanced than without ICD
ICD for procs like the legendary -> worse balanced than without ICD

Why would 2 fireballs flying off be weird? Or 2 of the same dot? I don't see any part of that as being weird, the mage 8pc of T2 had that effect. Duplicating a DPS spell would be a pretty nifty mechanic for a legendary. It'd be stupid for it to duplicate non-DPS spells like shields, but a standard DPS nuke or DoT should all be copiable.

Maybe it is easy to implement having two fire balls. I don´t know, I am not a programmer. I just thought, it could cause problems. They would have to asure that two of the same DoTs can be active at one target, while it is not possible to cast the DoT just twice, they have to asure that special mechanics like impact spreads don´t lose one ignite if there are two. Also two fire balls would be bad for fire mages because of ignite munching. I think there are lot of problems that could be caused by such a mechanic.

On the other hand having a proc with no ICD that triggers an arcane bolt of dmg is a terrible idea, that would make it vastly better for some classes than it would for others, it would all depend on how many spells per minute you cast. If you're gonna make it just cast a generic effect then it HAS to have an ICD for balance purposes.

Of course the arcane bolt should deal the same amount of damage as the spell (or the DoT tick) that triggered the arcane bolt and not a static amount of damage, so that classes who deal damage more frequently have "smaller" arcane bolts and the same overall benefit of the proc.

The copied spell deals its damage in form of arcane damage, if the proc scales from mastery then i guess arcane mages will be in priority for it along with boomkins.

I hope it doesn´t benefit from such effects, it shouldn´t be a problem to get it work like this.

Edit: mage T2 8p just made your next spell an instant cast, you couldn´t have two fire ball or pyro blast DoTs with it.

[Boathouse]

The most loyal caster from your group, hands down. I would never give a legendary away based on numbers alone, that's asking for it to end up in another guild.

[Count Zero]

From the proc's point of view: mage

Except we don't know exactly how the proc will work. No idea yet if there will be a damage cap to the copied spells. IE, a mage hits the cap in one spell; a dot class hits the cap in 3/4 dots.

[Deleted]

so to correctly answer the question stated in this topic:

no, it is currently not possible to make any mathmatical formulas for the staff, as the proc and the way it will work are not known yet.

as already mentioned, it could work like a trinket proc, with a %chance to proc and some internal cooldown (two unknown variables, cooldown and chance to proc).
it could also give you a buff that makes your following spell cast twice. (again, up to two unknowns, and you have to consider that the class could use "bursty" spells here which it would normally not use at that moment - like wl using hand of doom)
or it could simply have a small chance to copy some spell, without any cooldown (easiest one to figure out. if it has a flat 10% procchance, it is an average 10% dps-increase for anyone)

additionally it is not yet known(afaik) if the proc applies to EVERY spell or only direct damage spells

[Obsession]

From everyone's point of view: My class
From the realistic point of view: Probably not your class.

But seriously, nobody knows how the proc will work for sure. Don't determine who it will go to if you're going strictly for dps reasons unless you're willing to change it later. And also, unless you're a top 50 world guild you should give the first one to someone who probably won't app to a better guild before its even completed.

[Dazu]

Im leaning towards the proc being a feedback effect dealing a damage hit equal to say the last 5 seconds of damage dealt. It seems to be a model blizzard likes at the moment (Vengeance - Blood shield etc). This would also balance the proc to all caster dps basically evenly. IE - Mage is doing 22k dps sustained over 5 seconds, staff procs after 5 seconds for 110k damage, shadowpriest does 23k sustained - procs to 115k etc. This would be balanced rather than basically copying the Ele shammy mastery for everyone.

If not... Arc mage will be very OP especially in PvP with this if it just copies the one spell each proc.

However, how will the proc also come up for classes. Nibelung for example most classes could proc alot, especially mages and boomkin. However my lock never got more than 1 helper at a time, and generally 1-2 per 5mins of fighting. I saw a boomkin with 2+ at a time almost the entire fight. So this RNG factor and what can/does proc it might have a big effect. If the proc only comes from DD spells, it might be fair for all casters as it might only proc on their nuke (maybe not afflic locks, but def demo/destro then).

[Herrenos]

Why would this NOT be exactly like dancing rune weapon's effect, except on a proc chance instead of 100%? We all know blizzard likes to not have to program new hard things and they already have the effect in the game on DRW.

[klaps_05]

mage or warlock, problem solved.

[Obsession]

Im leaning towards the proc being a feedback effect dealing a damage hit equal to say the last 5 seconds of damage dealt. It seems to be a model blizzard likes at the moment (Vengeance - Blood shield etc). This would also balance the proc to all caster dps basically evenly. IE - Mage is doing 22k dps sustained over 5 seconds, staff procs after 5 seconds for 110k damage, shadowpriest does 23k sustained - procs to 115k etc. This would be balanced rather than basically copying the Ele shammy mastery for everyone.

If not... Arc mage will be very OP especially in PvP with this if it just copies the one spell each proc.

However, how will the proc also come up for classes. Nibelung for example most classes could proc alot, especially mages and boomkin. However my lock never got more than 1 helper at a time, and generally 1-2 per 5mins of fighting. I saw a boomkin with 2+ at a time almost the entire fight. So this RNG factor and what can/does proc it might have a big effect. If the proc only comes from DD spells, it might be fair for all casters as it might only proc on their nuke (maybe not afflic locks, but def demo/destro then).

That makes sense, but I can't see it being that for PvP reasons.

[Stevoman]

If you're talking purely guild benefit, yes it would be very easy to sim out all the casters in your guild with and without the staff, then and give it to whoever provides the biggest raid DPS gain.

Very easy:
Analyze your Guilds WorldOfLogs and give it to your Caster DD with the most dmg on most of your fights.

But in Reality it will go in most of all times to one of the guild officiers.

They had better be one and the same. What guild in their right mind promotes a poor performer to an officer position?