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  1. #1

    To move to Stam or not?

    So, currently, with procs and raid buffs, I sit around 42% dodge.

    According to rawr, I have 87% avoidance. But my hp (unbuffed) in bear is 142k

    Armory : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...etworth/simple

    Basically my guild is pushing me to Stam stack, but I'm hesitant, as Mitigation is the shit and I'm no paragon druid (yes, i read the post).

    Any assistance would be helpful - pushing into the harder heroics (Valiona + Theralion), and I was wondering which would be more beneficial.

  2. #2
    If you're dying because your healers are often going OOM....stay with avoidance.

    If you're dying because you're taking too much damage too fast...you probably could improve your personal and healer cooldown usage.

    Stamina really isn't the issue on most encounters, but if they won't drop the subject swap to stam trinkets and see what happens.

  3. #3
    Do we get more info? Are you dying to something specific that's bringing this about?

  4. #4
    The only reason to stack stamina would be to survive a few extra hits. With the HARDEST hitting bosses hitting for 60-80k the chances of surviving an extra hit by stacking stamina are very unlikely. All excessive Stamina does is it allows the rest of your raid to be terrible at the expense of your healer's mana, so unless your healers have unlimited mana, stick with agility. Some bosses have some frequent high burst that may require stamina to work around, but simply keeping a pair of stamina trinkets to switch in and out for such encounters should be more then sufficient.

    Also, most unavoidable high damage is predictable, and can be taken care of with a simple CD. Use stamina trinkets/Mirror of broken images on bosses with high, frequent burst, agility on rest.

    Some people seem to believe stamina makes things easier, when in reality it doesn't do anything, except for burning your healer's mana faster. With the way tanking/healing works in cataclysm, tanks should be focusing on REDUCING incoming damage, instead of trying to get enough stamina to just chew through it. Bosses can't 2 shot you anymore like in WOTLK, and people need to adapt to that.

  5. #5
    use 50dodge/agi enchant on bracer , 250armor on cloak , 55stam on chest , and if u got some money change ur head to BoE one (crit/mastery )

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Katarn View Post
    Do we get more info? Are you dying to something specific that's bringing this about?
    Nothing in particular, I was just told by a few people that once I hit 42% dodge w/ procs, it's more beneficial to go stam. But, meh.

    I guess HM Chimaeron, sometimes shit sucks.

  7. #7
    From what i remember reading dodge gets more valuable the more you have.
    Resto Druids, the best health care system

  8. #8
    Your guild appears to be stuck with the WotLK mindset. stick with your avoidance gemming or you WILL die more. Switching every single gem to stamina won't even allow you to survive 1 more typical boss hit.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Xathiann View Post
    Your guild appears to be stuck with the WotLK mindset. stick with your avoidance gemming or you WILL die more. Switching every single gem to stamina won't even allow you to survive 1 more typical boss hit.
    So going off what my current gems/enchants are, we're all set?

  10. #10
    All excessive Stamina does is it allows the rest of your raid to be terrible at the expense of your healer's mana
    I was wondering, how does this fit into the "sejta can get away with stam stacking because the other people in his raid are amazing and they are vastly under geared to their current level of content (i.e. their healer's dont have infinite mana)" typical response? People seem to have polar opposite reasons for hating stam, I was just wondering if you completely disagreed with the other statement or you can magically tie the two statements together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pretentious View Post
    So going off what my current gems/enchants are, we're all set?
    I switched out to all agi for a raid. My healers said it was noticeably harder / more strenuous to heal me that night, one of them guessing that I switched to pure stam (I guess he never really looked at my gear and had % turned on instead of hp). Just do what makes your raid happy imo. Nothing wrong with trying it out for a night to see how it goes.
    Last edited by mascaron; 2011-05-31 at 04:30 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Pretentious View Post
    Nothing in particular, I was just told by a few people that once I hit 42% dodge w/ procs, it's more beneficial to go stam. But, meh.

    I guess HM Chimaeron, sometimes shit sucks.
    So basically Feud then? No amount of Stam is going to help you with that. That's just effective CD usage.

  12. #12
    I'm stam stacking on my druid and running about 35% dodge in a raid setting. My healers are very comfortable with healing me and they are having no problems. Stam stacking is usually the most beneficial for heroic mode raiding, but it's also useful in normal modes aswell. At this point just go with whatever you want, as long as you keep yourself above 30% dodge there shouldn't be much of an issue with going for pure stam.

  13. #13
    so.. did some quick math.

    Gemming and enchanting pure stam w/ 2 stam trinkets (w/ 2 green gems for meta), I sit @ 180k bear form unbuffed (204k ish iirc raid buffed)
    Switching everything out for agi, I drop 2602 stam and gain 1646 agi. Raid buffed, this is a loss of 46,836 hp to gain 5.31% crit, 5.13% dodge, a loss of ~1800 per lotp heal, and a gain of ~800 per savage defense shield (I thiink.. can't recall exactly how to calculate shield with vengeance after it was noticed to be different than what we assumed).

    So.. while 47k isn't enough hp to surive a 60k melee swing.... it's enough to survive another hit if you get a small quick heal from just one healer in-between hits (i.e. holy shock, beacon of light heal from a divine light on the other tank, w/e).

  14. #14
    Stack agility. If your healers are letting you die it's their fault. All the theorycrafters have shown agility is best. Paragon stam stacks because when they are clearing hardmodes first they are undergeared. No tank stacks stam these days and they get laughed at if they do.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mnemon View Post
    Stack agility. If your healers are letting you die it's their fault. All the theorycrafters have shown agility is best. Paragon stam stacks because when they are clearing hardmodes first they are undergeared. No tank stacks stam these days and they get laughed at if they do.
    Except sejta still stacks stam even in BiS gear.. and some other bear tanks still stack stam, don't get laughed at, don't die repeatedly, don't have their healers complaining that they're going oom healing them, etc.

    Care to try again?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by mascaron View Post
    Except sejta still stacks stam even in BiS gear.. and some other bear tanks still stack stam, don't get laughed at, don't die repeatedly, don't have their healers complaining that they're going oom healing them, etc.

    Care to try again?
    and is he in BiS gear and doing sinestra? no... didn't think so.

    Agi provides more bonuses through crit/dodge and bubble size (through atp) as stam only boosts health/bubble size.


    Quote Originally Posted by Katarn View Post
    So basically Feud then? No amount of Stam is going to help you with that. That's just effective CD usage.
    And makes spirit link totem worse as it will give more health then is needed to the tank to make him "equal" with the raid.
    Last edited by alucardtnuoc; 2011-05-31 at 06:12 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by alucardtnuoc View Post
    and is he in BiS gear and doing sinestra? no... didn't think so.
    Srsly.. that has been thrown around this entire expansion. "Well is he doing normal nef? no... didn't think so" "Well is he doing heroic modes? no... didn't think so" "Well is he doing heroic nef? no... didn't think so"

    At no point has Sejta changed from his max stam stance. Some people say it's only effective because the raid is super good, others say that stacking stam allows the rest of the raid to be bad @ the expense of healer mana, others say that it only works because they undergear the encounter at hand and thus stamina trumps mitigation only at that point. Those all sound conflicting to me... just making up excuses as to why agi is better than stam (except in his case).. never saying "it's because Sejta doesn't know how to gear."

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by doomchken View Post
    From what i remember reading dodge gets more valuable the more you have.
    That's only if you're looking at percent average damage reduction as a function of dodge instead of looking at actual average damage reduction as a function of dodge.

    Hypothetically imagine a situation where the combat table could only resolve to either a dodge or a hit. Going from 99% dodge to 100% dodge appears orders of magnitude more significant than going from 50% -> 51% dodge if you are looking at the change in damage input as a percentage change versus current damage input, but in absolute terms both 1% increases correspond to exactly the same average amount of damage avoided (of course not considering the consequences of diminishing returns on ratings, which is a separate question entirely).
    Last edited by underdogba; 2011-05-31 at 06:33 AM.

  19. #19
    The worst thing you can do is get pure stamina at this point, and as gear level rises, you'll have more base stamina from your gear and socket bonuses than you've had before. Meaning that if you go pure avoidance, you'll eventually be having -enough- stamina to not just get oneshotted in the case of a very hard melee swing or boss ability.
    At this point, when people aren't even close to being Avoidance Capped: Avoidance -> Stamina

    As a tank, I'd say stick to avoidance, and if your guild is complaining, then try it out, see how it goes.
    I can garantuee you that your healers are going to struggle more with a tank that has pure stamina (Depending on wether its a DK or not) Than one that mitigates damage properly.

    The ammount of value your stamina has per gem compared to your other gems is siltch. You dont get enough out of stamina to make it a valuable stat to gem, as you would with your other avoidance (or in your case Agility) gems.
    [An00b'arak]: im sure i dont know...im just an arachnid

    [An00b'arak]: guess what im not ashamed of what i am

    [An00b'arak]: >8< spider pride

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Discokurt View Post
    The worst thing you can do is get pure stamina at this point, and as gear level rises, you'll have more base stamina from your gear and socket bonuses than you've had before. Meaning that if you go pure avoidance, you'll eventually be having -enough- stamina to not just get oneshotted in the case of a very hard melee swing or boss ability.
    That could not possibly be further from the truth. As gear level rises, healer mana and throughput also rise, so in order to have boss encounters require a taxing enough heal/s to challenge healers, it is just as likely that the size of individual boss hits might have to rise to a height that starts resembling the BC/Wrath healing model more than the first tier of Cata.

    Point being there are a lot of different competing effects that result from gear scaling, and it is completely impossible to predict what is going to happen strictly on the basis of platitudes and hasty generalizations without looking at the actual numbers that are going to be involved.

    In a tier or two we might just find ourselves looking at threads complaining about how hard "avoidance tanks" are to heal, depending on how the mechanics scale out.
    Last edited by underdogba; 2011-05-31 at 06:43 AM.

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