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  1. #1

    Is Iraq better off today then before 2001?

    Well a simple question. Has the situation for the average Iraqi bettered over the past 7 odd years? The reason the US went to war in Iraq was for WMD (which did not exist), to get Saddam (which they did) and bring democracy to the people of Iraq (which never happened).

    But do you think the US intervention in Iraq actually made life better for the average Iraqi? Yes or no please give reasons why you think so.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Hif View Post
    Well a simple question. Has the situation for the average Iraqi bettered over the past 7 odd years? The reason the US went to war in Iraq was for WMD (which did not exist), to get Saddam (which they did) and bring democracy to the people of Iraq (which never happened).

    But do you think the US intervention in Iraq actually made life better for the average Iraqi? Yes or no please give reasons why you think so.
    Nothing you've said is true.

  3. #3
    What the US found the reciepts for the WMD's they sold to Iraq in the 1980s? Hot damn. Finally some proof!!!

  4. #4
    The Patient dathraz's Avatar
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    Not if you ask all the irak refuges we have here in Sweden. Now when thay visit their homeland thay have to worry about things that dident exist before. War on the street and suicide bombers. When Saddam ruled their was not much crimes in the country. It had alot of problems, but it was safe for the "normal" people.

    Sad thing is after 2001 we have more refuges from Irak here in Sweden in one city then the whole US have in totall after "thay" started the war.
    Last edited by dathraz; 2011-05-31 at 08:22 AM.

  5. #5
    Scarab Lord Atrea's Avatar
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    I'm sure we're meant to think so.

    I guess you'd have to ask people who lived there before and after.
    Anyone who lived there before, but not after (or vice versa) has no basis for comparison.

    And anyone who has never lived there really has no idea one way or the other.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Merkava View Post
    Nothing you've said is true.
    Regardless it doesn't change the actual question.

    During the Iraq Invasion I used to say "I bet Iraq will be a better place in 10 years from now compared to today".

    It's been 8 years since the invasion and to be honest, I don't know much about the current state of the nation. It only really comes into the news if some bomb explodes or riots happen, which to be fair, isn't that often.

    The lack of news out of Iraq makes me assume that, Iraq is in fact better off now than it was pre 2003.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by dathraz View Post
    Not if you ask all the irak refuges we have here in Sweden. Now when thay visit their homeland thay have to worry about things that dident exist before. War on the street and suicide bombers. When Saddam ruled their was not much crimes in the country. It had alot of problems, but it was safe for the "normal" people.

    Sad thing is after 2001 we have more refuges from Irak here in Sweden in one city then the whole US have in totall after "thay" started the war.
    Are you saying that anyone that suffered under saddam's reign wasn't a "normal" person and is therefore not worthy of consideration?

    Of course things are better, unless you prefer torture chambers, gassing entire sections of the population, and mass graves.
    Actually, Mr. Lennon, I CAN imagine a world with no hatred, religion, war, or violence.
    I can also imagine attacking such a world, because they would never see it coming.

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  8. #8
    The Middle East is a difficult place to hope for growth in. That's by no means an attempt to stake some superiority claim, it's just that they've been involved in a certain way of life for generation after generation. Freedom is wonderful. Most people can agree with that. Some cannot. War, by its nature, leaves a vacuum where it takes place that, despite our best efforts, can only be filled by what the populace gravitates toward. In the Mid-East, that is often restrictive order.

    Did we (In the US) hope Iraq blossomed into a freedom-loving, pro-democracy state? Of course we did. Did we have the ability to make it happen? No, only they did. Democracy will eventually spiral into dictatorship if not policed by the people, and if the people accept and welcome dictatorship, the process will be fast. Look through history - mankind endures, and possibly welcomes, oppression as a means to help make decisions for them. Freedom is a difficult notion. We can only hope, at some point, it's one that we all understand.

  9. #9
    No way to know unless you live there..

  10. #10
    Epic! Miuku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigercat View Post
    Of course things are better, unless you prefer torture chambers, gassing entire sections of the population, and mass graves.
    I'm sure the 100k+ dead from the coalition "efforts" and the constant fear of suicide bombers is currently a better alternative.

    If you bother to read ; http://www.defense.gov/home/features...rts/index.html you'll actually find in the reports that things haven't improved much at all - in fact in some cases they've gone from bad to worse.

    The place is currently a mess, surely less people are dying directly but there are no real hard facts on how many are dying indirectly due to the destruction of the infra and social upheaval - the estimates range anywhere from a hundred thousand to half a million, which would put them humorously close to Saddam's evil reign.
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  11. #11
    The Patient dathraz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigercat View Post
    Are you saying that anyone that suffered under saddam's reign wasn't a "normal" person and is therefore not worthy of consideration?

    Of course things are better, unless you prefer torture chambers, gassing entire sections of the population, and mass graves.
    That happen to a small group of people. Normal people did not live in fear as you may think. But like i said the country had problems.
    One of kind of people who had it bad was the kurds, and IRAQ is or was not the only country that have made them suffer, i can name a few more that making them suffer even now. So why dont the USA go invade them now then? And thay do have WMD, the US nukeler weapons on their soil at this time even.

    You are so blind by your news you get fed whit all day. But guess what here in Sweden we had to take care of all the iraqy and kurdish refuges, and I for one have made alot of new friends. And I sure take their word before any American news station that fed you whit propaganda you want to hear.
    Last edited by dathraz; 2011-05-31 at 10:12 AM.

  12. #12

  13. #13
    Yes ofc US saved them!!

    jk

    over 100 000 civilians dead.
    http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Venali View Post
    The Middle East is a difficult place to hope for growth in. That's by no means an attempt to stake some superiority claim, it's just that they've been involved in a certain way of life for generation after generation. Freedom is wonderful. Most people can agree with that. Some cannot. War, by its nature, leaves a vacuum where it takes place that, despite our best efforts, can only be filled by what the populace gravitates toward. In the Mid-East, that is often restrictive order.

    Did we (In the US) hope Iraq blossomed into a freedom-loving, pro-democracy state? Of course we did. Did we have the ability to make it happen? No, only they did. Democracy will eventually spiral into dictatorship if not policed by the people, and if the people accept and welcome dictatorship, the process will be fast. Look through history - mankind endures, and possibly welcomes, oppression as a means to help make decisions for them. Freedom is a difficult notion. We can only hope, at some point, it's one that we all understand.
    A thousand times this. The government established here in the US came under very special conditions, of which none exist in Iraq.

  15. #15
    Mechagnome Magisleeper's Avatar
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    There is no right answer the way you would answer is simple a statement on how you view war, neh, US involvment in other countries own civil politics. Excuse the spelling but a better questing would be how do you feel about sugar in children's cereal; Fact is both already exist and to try and pass judgement on either is already beyond the fact of wether it is right on not, more to the point now that it is; How do you feel about it now.
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  16. #16
    Look, a dictator ship (spell check?) gives the people a set of strict rules and if anyone breaks thoes in any way, or speaks up about something...

    You think thats better than what they have now? I still renember the footage of the guy coming up of a secret hole in his house/outhouse thingie after.. was it 15 years? Hiding from Saddam and his followeres cause.

    LIVE IN A FUCKING UNDERGROUND HOLE FOR YEARS HIDING. Democracy is better. People who died, innocent people.. thats horrible, but the ammounts of people that was toutered or on the run, is terrible to.


    Rome wasent builded in 10 years. Give the middeleast some time now. If nothing good comes out of it atleast "we got him!!:P" Saddam and Osama, aswell as many leading terroristes.

  17. #17
    Mechagnome Magisleeper's Avatar
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    And you can throw out bodycounts, civilan deaths, military expense figures, and a thousand other irrevelant links to supposed sources that claim to be on the 'frontlines' and you will never even hit a point on the map as far as what figures represent the casualties that occur in [explicit censcored] WAR!

    The truth is nobody wins, everyone loses. Plant your flag on the dead body of a terrorist there are a thousand more to take the place, plant you flag on the grounds of peace theres a million acres of bloodsoaked ground that beg to differ. War is hell and so we should treat it as such. Avoid at all costs and never deny the price's we all pay.
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  18. #18
    Scarab Lord Atrea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightelfsb View Post
    Look, a dictator ship (spell check?) gives the people a set of strict rules and if anyone breaks thoes in any way, or speaks up about something...

    You think thats better than what they have now? I still renember the footage of the guy coming up of a secret hole in his house/outhouse thingie after.. was it 15 years? Hiding from Saddam and his followeres cause.

    LIVE IN A FUCKING UNDERGROUND HOLE FOR YEARS HIDING. Democracy is better. People who died, innocent people.. thats horrible, but the ammounts of people that was toutered or on the run, is terrible to.


    Rome wasent builded in 10 years. Give the middeleast some time now. If nothing good comes out of it atleast "we got him!!:P" Saddam and Osama, aswell as many leading terroristes.
    That isn't what a dictatorship is.
    The rest... I don't know where to begin.

    ---------- Post added 2011-05-31 at 09:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Magisleeper View Post
    War is hell and so we should treat it as such. Avoid at all costs and never deny the price's we all pay.
    The problem is, especially in the 21st century, war has become a very lucrative business.

  19. #19
    Well. If USA keep killing of the citizens, Iraq wont exist soon....

  20. #20
    Mechagnome Magisleeper's Avatar
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    To the point is the middleast better off now than a decade ago(not the direct point but listen); No, the US claimed to install a democracy which they have NO MEANS to support, a goverment they have NO RESOURCES to back up, and will likely support a leader they can no more trust to do the "right" thing than they have in the past; See reagan and contra, (google it). The US needs the just gtfo of world policy for a while and focus on its own damn problems. I am by no means bashing veterans, yet at the same time, the US manufactered most of the damn munitions being used against them.
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