Is Iraq better off today then before 2001?

[whyusocrazy]

USA did not go to war to make Iraq better for Iraq people, they went to war to seek vengeance, which they accomplished well. honestly the average person could care less how well another country is doing. i mean seriously who takes time out of their day to be worried about the 150+ countries in distress... be honest. its simple, if u roll over and let usa petu like the doggy u are everything is good but when u start to bark and bite the hand that feeds you, well you going to be hung from a noose for all the world to see or shot in the left eye.

[Deleted]

well from what you see on the news it doesn't seem a lot better but then again we need a real iraqi here to tell us :P tv lies a lot

[Magisleeper]

The problem is, especially in the 21st century, war has become a very lucrative business.

War is always lucrative, most of the scientific advancements have come from times of war; See: Most reaserch on atomic chemistry/physics, nothing funds a science project like the ability to kill people.

[whyusocrazy]

To the point is the middleast better off now than a decade ago(not the direct point but listen); No, the US claimed to install a democracy which they have NO MEANS to support, a goverment they have NO RESOURCES to back up, and will likely support a leader they can no more trust to do the "right" thing than they have in the past; See reagan and contra, (google it). The US needs the just gtfo of world policy for a while and focus on its own damn problems. I am by no means bashing veterans, yet at the same time, the US manufactered most of the damn munitions being used against them.

dont think us is dying to normal types of weaponry. more like IED's. and for the last time they didnt go to install democracy, saddam had it coming for the invasion of kuwait, burning of the oil fields and a supposed attempt on geroge bush sr. if that isnt good enough reason i dont see what is.

---------- Post added 2011-05-31 at 09:22 AM ----------

Well. If USA keep killing of the citizens, Iraq wont exist soon....

you're probably one of those few people in the world that believe USA + allies have killed over 100,000 innocent civilians in the last 8 years. a little common sense would tell you this is a just insane estimation done by a bias group.

[Atrea]

War is always lucrative, most of the scientific advancements have come from times of war; See: Most reaserch on atomic chemistry/physics, nothing funds a science project like the ability to kill people.

While I don't disagree, I refer more specifically to the contracts that defense companies have been able to net.

How many bullets do you think have been fired in Iraq alone? How much do you think was spent on those?
I bet the answer to both is 'a lot'.

Not to mention the spoils of war.

[Deleted]

They have a couple thousand less innocent civilians to hog all those houses.

[Atrea]

you're probably one of those few people in the world that believe USA + allies have killed over 100,000 innocent civilians in the last 8 years. a little common sense would tell you this is a just insane estimation done by a bias group.

On what basis do you dismiss the claim?

Please note that I'm not endorsing it either, but "because if it were the truth, it'd be awful" is not a very good reason to discount it as being true.

[Deleted]

dont think us is dying to normal types of weaponry. more like IED's. and for the last time they didnt go to install democracy, saddam had it coming for the invasion of kuwait, burning of the oil fields and a supposed attempt on geroge bush sr. if that isnt good enough reason i dont see what is.

So it's justifiable to spend billions of dollars invading a country illegally just to get vengeance? Not to mention all the servicemen who died and the 100,000 civilians killed? Just so you can say "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED LOLZ!!!!11111111 XD"?

Get a grip. Whether you're trolling or not doesn't matter, you're still a complete idiot.

[whyusocrazy]

So it's justifiable to spend billions of dollars invading a country illegally just to get vengeance? Not to mention all the servicemen who died and the 100,000 civilians killed? Just so you can say "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED LOLZ!!!!11111111 XD"?

Get a grip. Whether you're trolling or not doesn't matter, you're still a complete idiot.

umm yeah, saddam needed to be stopped in 92, sorry USa took so long getting the job done. or maybe you think it was okay all the people he slaughtered.

and seriously no credible source on the planet will even go near that 100k number. so quit already

[Rigroll]

I work parttime with teaching swedish to immigrants. Those that ive talked to from Iraq and have fled for different reasons says this: Some things is better, some are the same and some are worse.

Christians get harassed, they say that did not happen under Saddam.

[whyusocrazy]

On what basis do you dismiss the claim?

Please note that I'm not endorsing it either, but "because if it were the truth, it'd be awful" is not a very good reason to discount it as being true.

common f'n sense... what does america get from killing civilians? besides grief from 15yr old kids on the INTERNET?

[Merkava]

So it's justifiable to spend billions of dollars invading a country illegally just to get vengeance? Not to mention all the servicemen who died and the 100,000 civilians killed? Just so you can say "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED LOLZ!!!!11111111 XD"?

Get a grip. Whether you're trolling or not doesn't matter, you're still a complete idiot.

Just to get vengeance? Maybe you weren't alive at the end of the first gulf war. Maybe you don't remember that after Saddam raped and murdered his way through Kuwait, completely annexing a sovereign state, a member of the UN and the Arab League, he saved himself from a regime change by agreeing to a cease fire. A cease fire that was enforced by more than a dozen UN resolutions. And then proceeded to break every single one. From firing on coalition planes enforcing a no fly zone, to supporting terrorists, to stealing from the oil for for program designed to help his own people, to killing Kuwaiti POW's.

Whether you were correcting whyuscrazy, or not, the Iraq war was about a hell of a lot more than vengeance.

[whyusocrazy]

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Latest incidents Latest identified
May 09-12: Bodies of two kidnapped men found shot dead in Jurf al-Sakhar Details Hassan Jasim Adult; Male; Supreme Islamic Council member Details
Recent events
Monday 30 May: 7 killed

Baghdad: 1 by IED, 1 policeman by AED.
Mosul: 2 by gunfire.
Muthanna: 1 abducted woman killed.
Saqlawiyah: 2 by gunfire.
More


as u can see, any death in Iraq right now is "innocent civilians" being murdered by military or paramilitary actions. basically in the 8 years you've had 110k people die. not from USA and their allies but yet the facts get twisted and people that cant research facts for themselves become engaged in an internet fight spewing out nonsense along the way.

[Atrea]

common f'n sense... what does america get from killing civilians? besides grief from 15yr old kids on the INTERNET?

The Iraq Body Count website (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/) is a database that compiles eyewitness accounts, medical reports, police reports, and US military reports. While it is by no means 100% infallible (and thus, not 100% accurate), it is likely to be a 'ballpark figure'.

'Common f'n sense' would dictate this as well, but it seems to have eluded you.

Just because the number is high (alarmingly high) doesn't mean it's untrue.
And as for your question of motive - I don't know, and I think that's the worst part of it all.

[whyusocrazy]

The Iraq Body Count website (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/) is a database that compiles eyewitness accounts, medical reports, police reports, and US military reports. While it is by no means 100% infallible (and thus, not 100% accurate), it is likely to be a 'ballpark figure'.

'Common f'n sense' would dictate this as well, but it seems to have eluded you.

Just because the number is high (alarmingly high) doesn't mean it's untrue.
And as for your question of motive - I don't know, and I think that's the worst part of it all.

so instead of reading the facts for yourself you reply with this nonsense? its right there in black and white. 2 men kidnapped and executed... yeah sounds like the USA and friends to me. or better yet the IED, definitely USA trying to kill innocent civilians. truth is they had problems before and will have problems after. all countries have crime, some more then others.

[Magisleeper]

umm yeah, saddam needed to be stopped in 92, sorry USa took so long getting the job done. or maybe you think it was okay all the people he slaughtered.

and seriously no credible source on the planet will even go near that 100k number. so quit already

Sorry to say this but, no, Saddam did not need to be stoped in 92 he shouldnt have ever claimed power, if you actually know your history you would know that since and somewhat before the '50s the US had been implanting sympathetic dictactors in the middleast for means of securing cheap oil and controlling an almost anarchist region. Most current dictactors and political enemy's of the US can be traced back to the US's own funding of gurilla groups in one form or another and to say the US had to stop [insert terrorist here] is like saying "We gotta find the shutoff valve!!" After attempting to repair your own leaky shower.

[Atrea]

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Latest incidents Latest identified
May 09-12: Bodies of two kidnapped men found shot dead in Jurf al-Sakhar Details Hassan Jasim Adult; Male; Supreme Islamic Council member Details
Recent events
Monday 30 May: 7 killed

Baghdad: 1 by IED, 1 policeman by AED.
Mosul: 2 by gunfire.
Muthanna: 1 abducted woman killed.
Saqlawiyah: 2 by gunfire.
More


as u can see, any death in Iraq right now is "innocent civilians" being murdered by military or paramilitary actions. basically in the 8 years you've had 110k people die. not from USA and their allies but yet the facts get twisted and people that cant research facts for themselves become engaged in an internet fight spewing out nonsense along the way.

The US department of defense released a statement in 2008, detailing the deaths from January 2004 to August 2008.
Their number for this period is 63,185 civilians.

(Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101406139.html )

The numbers are solid. And while it's hard to tell if a dead civilian is an 'innocent civilian', there are countless cases of the United States forces opening fire on civilians.

A famous one is this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25EWUUBjPMo


The proof is there, if you choose to dismiss it, that's your prerogative, but the only ones who 'can't research facts for themselves' are those who dismiss it out of hand.

[whyusocrazy]

Sorry to say this but, no, Saddam did not need to be stoped in 92 he shouldnt have ever claimed power, if you actually know your history you would know that since and somewhat before the '50s the US had been implanting sympathetic dictactors in the middleast for means of securing cheap oil and controlling an almost anarchist region. Most current dictactors and political enemy's of the US can be traced back to the US's own funding of gurilla groups in one form or another and to say the US had to stop [insert terrorist here] is like saying "We gotta find the shutoff valve!!" After attempting to repair your own leaky shower.

oh waa, usa tried to control other governments and dictatorships so all the worlds problems is their fault... cmon man get a grip. every government in history has done the same or at least tried. why wouldnt they try to manipulate the weaker countries? what world are you living in? SERIOUSLY?

i guess what u really want is the usa to give their possessions up till everybody in the world is equally broke and never strive to better their own economy.

[Atrea]

Sorry to say this but, no, Saddam did not need to be stoped in 92 he shouldnt have ever claimed power, if you actually know your history you would know that since and somewhat before the '50s the US had been implanting sympathetic dictactors in the middleast for means of securing cheap oil and controlling an almost anarchist region. Most current dictactors and political enemy's of the US can be traced back to the US's own funding of gurilla groups in one form or another and to say the US had to stop [insert terrorist here] is like saying "We gotta find the shutoff valve!!" After attempting to repair your own leaky shower.

Not to mention, their willingness to co-operate against the Soviets. That's really what it all boils down to.
They destabilized the region by using it as a platform to wage the Cold War.

Now it's biting them in the ass.

[Shmiles]

Look, a dictator ship (spell check?) gives the people a set of strict rules and if anyone breaks thoes in any way, or speaks up about something...

You think thats better than what they have now? I still renember the footage of the guy coming up of a secret hole in his house/outhouse thingie after.. was it 15 years? Hiding from Saddam and his followeres cause.

LIVE IN A FUCKING UNDERGROUND HOLE FOR YEARS HIDING. Democracy is better. People who died, innocent people.. thats horrible, but the ammounts of people that was toutered or on the run, is terrible to.


Rome wasent builded in 10 years. Give the middeleast some time now. If nothing good comes out of it atleast "we got him!!:P" Saddam and Osama, aswell as many leading terroristes.

You clearly have no idea, nor do you have an education. If you cannot post with decent spelling or grammar, why are you posting at all in one of the more "intellectual" threads on these forums?