A tree falls in a forest...

[Badpaladin]

We know it through science.
Don't confuse excistance with perception.

I know, through science, that a tree falling in a forest is perfectly capable of not making a sound. Just like it's entirely possible that you can throw a glass bottle on the ground it it will bounce right back into your hand with no marks whatsoever. There is nothing in physics that states such things are impossible, just that they're improbable. When you're not around to witness such a thing, how do you truly know? You don't.

[Jhaalu]

Air is particles of nitrogen and oxygen that our bodies need to function.

Everything is something, even things that you cannot percieve with the naked eye. EVERYTHING is something.

Light for example, is what enables us to see anything at all. Light is waves bouncing off of objects, thusly showing their shapes to us. Different colors are seen depending on what light and particles surfaces reflect or absorb.

All of these things would still be what they are. We are completely inconsequential to their excistance, we merely live because of them not the other way around my friend.

Science, heck yes!

I'll try to illustrate my point better.

Imagine any object or place.

Now imagine it without any senses.

What are you imagining now? Chances are you are still imagining what it looks like, or smells like, or sounds like.

[Noomz]

I know this. I'm aware that it would exist as it does now without us. I'm just saing that everything we know and experience in the universe is limited by our 6 senses. What if there are other senses that we don't have. What would the universe seem like with those senses?

We have far more then 6 senses. We have 5 sensory organs, but we can sense much more then 5 things. There are between 9 and 21 human senses, depending on how you define "sense".
And there are numerous that we don't have. We can't see ultra-violet without visual aid for example, which I think some forms of animals can.
Not percieving something, doesn't mean it doesn't excist. We cannot see cosmic radiation, we cannot see light waves, radio waves etc.

Here's a lecture from Richard Dawkins that I think you will love, where he speaks of human perception and the "middle-world" we live in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1APOxsp1VFw

[Creotor]

What's the purpose of these questions/thread? A discovery that perception is extremely subjective?
If you're not there to hear it, cool. You haven't heard it. Now what?

[Anakso]

I know this. I'm aware that it would exist as it does now without us. I'm just saing that everything we know and experience in the universe is limited by our 6 senses. What if there are other senses that we don't have. What would the universe seem like with those senses?

I see dead people.
Actually we have much more than 5 senses, 5 senses is just dumping it down and simplifying it a hell of a lot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUn7zy8Ya20
thats basically what I mean lol. as for the bigger questions like 'what is the chair' well beyond our own perception of the chair we can't really know if it can be perceived another way because of a sense we are missing, perhaps one day we'll find an intelligent species that has additional senses and they'll explain how they see the chair, but for now all we can do is call it a chair because thats what we see, and touch.

[Noomz]

I'll try to illustrate my point better.

Imagine any object or place.

Now imagine it without any senses.

What are you imagining now? Chances are you are still imagining what it looks like, or smells like, or sounds like.

I know what you mean. You're thinking about how someone like us could percieve something without senses? Well we can't. No living being can. Organic life needs sensory organs to percieve it's world, and mechanical constructs need sensory input of their own.

---------- Post added 2011-06-01 at 02:33 AM ----------

I see dead people.
Actually we have much more than 5 senses, 5 senses is just dumping it down and simplifying it a hell of a lot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUn7zy8Ya20
thats basically what I mean lol. as for the bigger questions like 'what is the chair' well beyond our own perception of the chair we can't really know if it can be perceived another way because of a sense we are missing, perhaps one day we'll find an intelligent species that has additional senses and they'll explain how they see the chair, but for now all we can do is call it a chair because thats what we see, and touch.

Yay! QI!
I absolutely love that show to bits! Stephen Fry is awesome.

[Fuzzzie]

OP reminds me a little of that Sopranos episode where Carmela and Rosalie go to Paris. The episode is "Cold Stones" from S6. You'll have to watch it to understand.

[Jhaalu]

We have far more then 6 senses. We have 5 sensory organs, but we can sense much more then 5 things. There are between 9 and 21 human senses, depending on how you define "sense".
And there are numerous that we don't have. We can't see ultra-violet without visual aid for example, which I think some forms of animals can.
Not percieving something, doesn't mean it doesn't excist. We cannot see cosmic radiation, we cannot see light waves, radio waves etc.

Here's a lecture from Richard Dawkins that I think you will love, where he speaks of human perception and the "middle-world" we live in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1APOxsp1VFw

I'll check that out, thanks.

(and i never said that not percieving something caused it not to exist, maybe i'm not wording things right)

[Creotor]

Yeah, that's why I think it's worthless, or in other words, nothing. What good is a sound that you can't hear?

Absolutely every object makes an impact on everything around it, just like everything around it makes an impact on that object. In other words, it might not affect you directly, but it will affect you in some way.

[Rukioish]

jsut because we can overthink everything, doesn't mean we should. my opinion, the universe is a lot simpler than we make it out to be.

[Yosef1015]

I know, through science, that a tree falling in a forest is perfectly capable of not making a sound. Just like it's entirely possible that you can throw a glass bottle on the ground it it will bounce right back into your hand with no marks whatsoever. There is nothing in physics that states such things are impossible, just that they're improbable. When you're not around to witness such a thing, how do you truly know? You don't.

I think it is just common sense that a tree falling in a forest will 100% of the time make some sort of sound and that no glass bottle on the planet will hit concrete without a scratch and defy the laws of gravity and bounce into your hand.

Also, I'm pretty sure if no one is looking at a certain object it doesn't just disappear then reappear when someone does look at it, so yes everything still exists if no one is there to perceive it. The world goes on even without humans and life. It's quite simple really.

[Noomz]

Absolutely every object makes an impact on everything around it, just like everything around it makes an impact on that object. In other words, it might not affect you directly, but it will affect you in some way.

The butterfly effect is extremely exhaggerated

[Tyrianth]

larger question, does the forest even exist if no one is around to see it exist?

Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_permanence

[Creotor]

jsut because we can overthink everything, doesn't mean we should. my opinion, the universe is a lot simpler than we make it out to be.

It's as simple/complex as you want it to be, imo.

So many misunderstandings in this thread.

[Sobedesce]

jsut because we can overthink everything, doesn't mean we should. my opinion, the universe is a lot simpler than we make it out to be.

explain dark matter

[Noomz]

In the words of one of my favorite authors Terry Pratchett, "Things just happen. What the hell."

---------- Post added 2011-06-01 at 02:43 AM ----------

jsut because we can overthink everything, doesn't mean we should. my opinion, the universe is a lot simpler than we make it out to be.

Some times, the most simple of solutions requires the most brilliant minds.

Don't you often feel, "Why didn't I think of that? That's so obvious!"?
Well ofcourse you didn't think about it, it was so obvious, that you couldn't.

[Haven]

It's quite possible to imagine in fact. You just have to stop thinking you're of any fucking significance and in fact, you're just one big coincidence, a grain of sand in the vast universe. Light will exist without your opinion about it or perception of it, because it doesn't give a fuck. The world won't end with your death.

[Anakso]

Another 'quite interesting' thing to point out is what is a movie? to us, we perceive a movie as an ongoing 'moving picture', of course we know that it is a series of images being streamed so fast we see them as moving, but if a pigeon were to watch the same movie, it would see nothing but a slide show. so there are greatly varying degrees of senses.

[Noomz]

I think it is just common sense that a tree falling in a forest will 100% of the time make some sort of sound and that no glass bottle on the planet will hit concrete without a scratch and defy the laws of gravity and bounce into your hand.

Also, I'm pretty sure if no one is looking at a certain object it doesn't just disappear then reappear when someone does look at it, so yes everything still exists if no one is there to perceive it. The world goes on even without humans and life. It's quite simple really.

Quantum physics disagree!
There's always a chance for something to happen, always. Even though it might be almost non-excistant.

[Yosef1015]

It's quite possible to imagine in fact. You just have to stop thinking you're of any fucking significance and in fact, you're just one big coincidence, a grain of sand in the vast universe. Light will exist without your opinion about it or perception of it, because it doesn't give a fuck. The world won't end with your death.

Boom.
Vulgar yet wise words.
Hit the nail on the head.