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  1. #41
    The Patient Madam's Avatar
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    Updated with Stats and Helpful Links.

    Also, changed notes to cookie-cutter specs, yes, even Milkshake may end up happy.

    Please continue to post helpful changes the guide may need as I know some areas have still been missed.

    We all learn from trial and error, and reading forums such as this to better our play, please refrain from name calling/belittling one another. Constructive posts will be better received by all who read.

    Thanks for all the help, one of the reasons I enjoy playing a priest, our community.

  2. #42
    ON second though, perhaps adding a stats section was a bad idea.

    MST is fantastic for PW:S, but only gives .75% on the point for DA, making it scale very poorly. HST will outperform MST on PoH in most cases.

    Consider: 25% HST = 3201.5 HSTr // 17.86 MST or ~=~ 3201.5 MSTr
    Assuming: All DAs are absorbed, 0% overheal.
    Conditions: Outside buffs omitted for time.
    Given: PoH heals for 1000. 8MST baseline.

    10sec worth of casting w/ 25% HST / 20% SD= 5 PoHs = 5000HP/1800AB [36% DA] = 6800 damage resolved.
    10sec worth of casting w/ 0% HST / 64.65% SD = 4 PoHs = 4000HP/1976AB [49.4% DA] = 5976 damage resolved.


    HST never "drains mana faster." Ever. Counting BT as HST is folly unless you are bubblebotting. If you wish to cast GH/PoH on a target with BT, you first have to cast PW:S, which takes a GCD. It doesn't just magically appear 'cause you wish it. So, Priest1 casts PW:S for BT. It is very well possible that the tank(s) have WS and no one is expected to take predictable damage in 15sec, which means it is also possible that you've spent the mana cost of PW:S AND wasted a GCD on a shield that will not be absorbed to gain a 14% haste buff. You now cast your PoH/GH. The whole deal took 3.65sec. Priest2 casts PoH/GH. It lands in 2.5sec with 0 haste.

    You do not need more combat regen to compensate for HST. Look. X is the number of HPs you have to heal. If 5Y spells need to be cast to heal X, it doesn't matter how quick it takes, the same amount of mana will be expended, you'll just have people back to full quicker. If it costs 100mana to cast 5Y, it doesn't matter if casting 5Y takes 1sec, 5sec, or 10sec.

    Think I'll leave it at that for now and let it simmer.

  3. #43
    The Patient Madam's Avatar
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    Fixed. Stats have always been and will continue to be debatable.

    The goal here is to inform, will leave debates for other threads...

  4. #44
    Field Marshal Tucows's Avatar
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    First off I wanted to say thanks for putting this guide together. I have sent the link to my personal email so I can read it all carefully when I get home.

    I was wondering...could you put some recommendations for those of us that have just hit 85? I dinged 85 on my priest alt last night and plan to go disc with him. I just don't want to go in blindly. Will this guide give me the information I need to heal 5 mans? Should I go holy instead? I went 1-85 as shadow (which may have been a mistake).

    Thanks

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Tucows View Post
    First off I wanted to say thanks for putting this guide together. I have sent the link to my personal email so I can read it all carefully when I get home.

    I was wondering...could you put some recommendations for those of us that have just hit 85? I dinged 85 on my priest alt last night and plan to go disc with him. I just don't want to go in blindly. Will this guide give me the information I need to heal 5 mans? Should I go holy instead? I went 1-85 as shadow (which may have been a mistake).

    Thanks
    I leveled my priest from 80 (wrath raider) to 85 in the past couple of weeks (my fourth 85 after my raiding warrior tank, hunter, and mage).

    Here's some basic recommendations if you just hit 85 and you're gearing:

    1. Spec A/A, not SoS as you'll mostly be doing 5 man heroics and A/A virtually never overheals. Your very limited mana pool will thank you.

    2. Don't over shield, you just don't have the mana for it. In 5 mans use this on the tank when damage is incoming and the shield will be absorbed. Use it only on the dps/self to avert imminent death or when a large damage spike is incoming on that player (toxic link in ZA).

    3. Use those cooldowns liberally. They'll all be available for the next fight anyway. Divine Hymn is a god send in tough AOE damage fights (just shield before using it to get the BT effect). PW:B is another great tool, particularly if your 5 man is melee heavy. Fade when you need it. Shadowfiend should be used for every boss fight when you hit the 50% mana mark.

    4. Stack that archangel quickly to 5 stacks, then slow down if you can. There are periods of AoE burst damage that frankly suck as a gearing disc priest, making sure you have that cooldown available ASAP is a priority.

    5. PoM glyph is great, but don't recast it on cooldown if it's still active just to get the 60% bonus to the first heal.

    6. Don't pre shield before the pull as most tanks don't pull when you think they're going to so it's mostly wasted.

    7. Get an addon like Vuhdo and learn to love it. It makes healing intelligible and debuffs a breeze to deal with.

    8. As bad as PoH seems at first, it's actually a great spell. Yes the bars don't move as much as we were used to in wrath, but the shield is awesome and stacks. Note that it is limited to 20% of your health (correct me if wrong), so it does have an upper limit, but it's still your best throughput multitarget heal. Use it anytime 3 or more people need healing (even those that don't may benefit from the shield proc from DA).

    9. Consider removing flash heal from your bar until you're in 346 gear. It's a mana vampire. Binding heal, on the other hand, can be a lifesaver when you and one other person (likely the tank) need healing ASAP.

    Gearing: Go for spirit and mastery at lower gear levels as your key secondary stats. See the discussion above once you're rocking 346/353 gear and ready to raid.
    Last edited by jason1975; 2011-06-14 at 07:07 PM.

  6. #46
    Gotta ask; Why all pve disc's taking Soul Warding talent? i havent seen any disc priest spamming pw:s yet.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by DuDe1903 View Post
    Gotta ask; Why all pve disc's taking Soul Warding talent? i havent seen any disc priest spamming pw:s yet.
    First, you must've come back to the game recently and missed the spamfest.

    Second, SW isn't about casting 10 or 25 PW:S in a row, its about casting 2,3,4, or 5 in a row. Just because you can do something with a talent, doesn't mean you must use it 100% of the time.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-] View Post
    First, you must've come back to the game recently and missed the spamfest.

    Second, SW isn't about casting 10 or 25 PW:S in a row, its about casting 2,3,4, or 5 in a row. Just because you can do something with a talent, doesn't mean you must use it 100% of the time.
    I thought AoE shields can able to made with PoH with Divine Aegis talent, less mana cost and instant 5 people. That 2 points seems waste to me :/

  9. #49
    With the shortened duration of PW:S the op mana tide and fiending efficiently you can to a degree hand out quite a few bubbles. Not like Heroic LK style still 8-10 isnt to impossible, if your doing it b4 known dmg. Making mastery insane more valuable than haste will ever be for disc. As previously stated probably full BiS t12 Holy will step to haste a bit further but considering BT every prayer is basically easy to do and gives u a free 15%+raid buff haste you should be roughly 25% haste on every prayer. Even today for prayer you must assume BT is up which if your weaving pw:s as you should be it will be up.

    It's really not up for debate with discipline at all mastery outweighs everything except intellect by a wide margain. PW:S and DA will be near if not the top of your healing always. Idk about you but in raids my shields are 33k-35k depending on PT procs. I also find it quite easy to maintain a decent amount of mana between tides. Looking at the 2pc for T12 it is quite nice for disc and is much more effective than Penance on cd for returns as obviously 540 spirit isnt the same for disc as it is for holy. However 2% mana everytime you heal basically for 15sec or so is quite amazing, not so much for holy tho Q_Q .

    You can keep your haste and play however you want tho your $14.99 a month so do as you please but it is not true to say in any regard that it is better to have than mastery, it really isnt and no haste disc priest will outheal a mastery disc priest at any time even w/ snipes when BT is up your haste will be a marginal .1 or less increase over the other and more powerful bubbles will prevail.

    Quote Originally Posted by DuDe1903 View Post
    I thought AoE shields can able to made with PoH with Divine Aegis talent, less mana cost and instant 5 people. That 2 points seems waste to me :/
    Divine aegis will never in a practical sense stop as much damage on command as a PW:S

    For instance Sinestra 4 Wrack targets divine aegis is not reliable to help your dispeller now 4 PW:S at 30-37k really depending on your gear level will be fruitful b4 after and during flame breaths, not to say you wouldnt in p3 spam a couple groups w/ PoH for DA's but those wrack targets are just going to get eaten if you dont assist and stop as much dmg as possible.

    Now bubble spamming in p2 chimaeron heroic is also HUGE at prolonging ppls live's and probably the best thing possible if your just starting heroic. Bubbling melee during Maloriak blue phase and tank on black phase. Hell even getting some bubbles out pre searing flame is nice. Bastion P2 chogall normal or heroic, also if your doing heroic and dps is low you can bubble a fully corrupted dps or 2 for increased life duration. The list is really endless and the bigger your bubble the better, aswell as being able to use it quickly and not wait on a CD.
    Last edited by Milkshake86; 2011-06-14 at 07:17 PM.

  10. #50
    Field Marshal Tucows's Avatar
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    @Jason1975 - Thanks for taking the time to provide several pointers for me. I really appreciate it.

    I'll try to get my CoC weapon tonight and try some regulars.

    Thanks again.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Milkshake86 View Post
    Divine aegis will never in a practical sense stop as much damage on command as a PW:S

    For instance Sinestra 4 Wrack targets divine aegis is not reliable to help your dispeller now 4 PW:S at 30-37k really depending on your gear level will be fruitful b4 after and during flame breaths, not to say you wouldnt in p3 spam a couple groups w/ PoH for DA's but those wrack targets are just going to get eaten if you dont assist and stop as much dmg as possible.

    Now bubble spamming in p2 chimaeron heroic is also HUGE at prolonging ppls live's and probably the best thing possible if your just starting heroic. Bubbling melee during Maloriak blue phase and tank on black phase. Hell even getting some bubbles out pre searing flame is nice. Bastion P2 chogall normal or heroic, also if your doing heroic and dps is low you can bubble a fully corrupted dps or 2 for increased life duration. The list is really endless and the bigger your bubble the better, aswell as being able to use it quickly and not wait on a CD.
    Thanks for the info and examples That talent seems more likely to me now

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Milkshake86 View Post
    It's really not up for debate with discipline at all mastery outweighs everything except intellect by a wide margain.
    It absolutely is up for debate. In fact, the ONLY spell in the Disc arsenal that favors MST over HST is PW:S. This means the weighted value of MST is tied directly to the percentage and quality of healing done by PW:S. With Innervate getting the axe in 4.2, it will be increasingly more difficult to nonchalantly toss out shields like they're Pez.

    Again, you cannot look at BT and say "Oh, look, 14% free Haste." Healers need to select the spell that is most efficient and effective for the damage pattern they are facing for that particular GCD. If a moment arrives when PoH is the most efficient and effective spell for a given GCD, it isn't wise to be all like, "Oh, I need to cast PoH, but first lemmie cast PW:S for BT so my PoH is hasted." Now, if you have BT already up and PoH is your best cast, then sweet.

    Furthermore, the effectiveness of a healer isn't necessarily correlated to who heals more, but rather how you heal when. Druids are pretty beast on meters right now, but offer no serious burst capacity beyond Tranq [which is why the CD was busted down]. They have a billion hots rolling on a billion people, and it all adds up to a nice, big, pretty number, but when you need people from 20%-80% in a very limited time crunch and Tranq is off CD, there isn't much they can do.

    Its like Holy priests back in ICC that mindlessly pressed Renew and CoH on CD while letting people sit around at 10-20% health. Yeah, dropping a FH or PoH might mean less HPS, but, honestly, is the priest that casts another Renew on someone else and watches the guy at 10% die a "better" healer?

    Now, I'm not saying that MST isn't strong for Disc, but to say "Disc Mastery; its better than everything at making everything better!" isn't telling the whole story. It is singularly, and amazingly, better at making PW:S better. Period. The value of stacking MST in lieu of all other stats is directly proportional to the number of GCDs you use in a given encounter on PW:S.

  13. #53
    The Patient Madam's Avatar
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    Tucows- Will hunt up the pre raid gear list for you *digs in old threads*

    Edit: Found the list posted by Malic, keep in mind it has not been updated with ZA/ZG drops, but still very good information.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...raid+gear+list

    Spiritus- As you may know, over the last few days I have been stalling to add Stats, IMO it is very challenging to weigh stats for all Disc Priest since we may favor 10 man or 25 man, tank heal or raid heal. (Tried to not show my bias in stats, but seem to have failed.) Stat weights just won't fit into a blanket statement. Thank you for adding the math in regards to Haste, they will really help.

    Milkshake- I tend to agree that Mastery trumps Haste (in higher gear levels) over the full duration of a fight, but have no math to prove, too bold of a statement to add to this guide, and new raiders need to have an open mind on what works for them. When first starting to raid I valued Haste much more than Mastery, as my gear changed so did my stat priority.

    At the end of the day our job is still to save lives, NOT to top recount meters. Use what works for your raid, be it stacking Haste or Mastery, our end goals are always the same, kill boss, get fat loot! (Hope none of you are as unlucky as me, yes, still sporting a lovely heroic 5 man wand, Chim dislikes me, a lot!)
    Last edited by Madam; 2011-06-14 at 09:18 PM.

  14. #54
    PW:S will always be your #1 heal tank or raid healing. Divine aegis benefit of mastery isnt as high but still directly benefits from mastery. As mana pools grow and regen grows PW:S will become more appealing. Haste has never and will never be a stat to go for until your stat capped. It is quite simple to understand that when used properly PW:S is going to be the most consistant "heal" you have even tho it really isnt a heal per say.

    Any healer who would let someone at 10% stay without a direct heal is just not good in general unless the fight mechanic requires it like anub.

    Druids and Disc priests are not the best direct raid healing utility in general yes we have the spell power yes we have some large heals however both classes soften damage flawlessly making room for burst healers to take care of excess damage. Meter padding is meter padding this has no debate in the situation other than your indifference to haste which is a meter pad stat compaired to mastery which directly STOPS dmg in the disc spec. Heal sniping is something ppl do to top meters NO fight in the game has a HOLY shit omFG situation where haste will be needed like that. Either your paying attention and know when the big spikes or coming or you dont and need to pay attention to the timers you have or atleast know the fight.

    Only tanks will have a steady flow of heals incoming because the damage they take is RNG completely.

    Im sorry but if your aiming for RAW heals in disc your playing the wrong spec. Everything is built around mitigation PW:S DA PW:B PS . You are the shield if you want to raw heal holy is your mentality and you should try it plain and simple. Ill end this topic by pointing out that mastery is a rare stat the way ti works for disc. Unlike armor pen b4 it Disc mastery benefits b4 post 50% however like Armor pen it becomes even more valuable beyond 50% .

    Yes you should use all your utility to win however dont bring a knife to a gun fight PW:S and DA cannot be sniped use them correctly and you wont need to freak out w/ haste. Also in the event that your raid is taking damage to the point where you would feel you need a mass amount of haste if as a disc priest you are not weaving bubbles your doing it very very very wrong. Nef heroic p2 no bubbles ROFL yea sure gl on that people in lava will love you til they die because your entire platform is being raped and you cant weave shields to just STOP a severe amount of damage borrowing you time HOLY wow bubbles give you borrowed time >.> which in turn actually gives you borrowed time for 14% haste on command.

    Also pi yourself if you need haste so badly and cant bubble or reroll holy for instant cast heals.

    I like you but a ton of forum posts doesnt mean your actually correct vanilla EXP doesnt mean you know your class and mathematically PW:S and DA are always top 3 buffing them is to your benefit in any event.

  15. #55
    I think, really, the only thing you need to do for stats in this guide is give people and idea of what each secondary does for them.

    MST= 2.5% increase to PW:S & .75% increase to DA per 179.28 rating.
    HST= Makes spells go faster. 25% Haste = 1 extra 2.5sec cast within a 10sec period [or drops a 2.5sec cast down to 2sec].
    CRT= Chance for heal to be 200% normal amount. Activates DA on any heal & doubles DA on PoH crits.

    Simple, sweet, unbiased.

    ---------- Post added 2011-06-14 at 04:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Milkshake86 View Post
    I like you but a ton of forum posts doesnt mean your actually correct vanilla EXP doesnt mean you know your class and mathematically PW:S and DA are always top 3 buffing them is to your benefit in any event.
    Mathematically, MST is only a better stat for boosting PW:S. That is all I am pointing out.

    Of course you are going to use PW:S a lot as Disc. It will always be in your top 3, if not #1 contributor for most encounters. It also increases in value in heroic modes when more damage is more constant.

    You actually think I'd argue the value of PW:S on a raider in lava for P2 H Nef? Of course its valuable. However, what is more valuable as a stat? An extra 5-7k on PW:S, or .5sec off a GH or PoH without the addition of BT? For meters? 5-7k on PW:S every day. However, 5-7k is piss-ant damage in T11 Heroic. The ability to get a heal on target in time, however, is huge.

    I've never been in a situation where my MST [Note: not PW:S] has made me think, "Yup, that extra 5-7k totally saved the day." I have been in countless situations where a fast GH or PoH kept people with WS up right before damage, which allowed for slower heals to hit that normally would not have.

    Again, I'm not saying that MST is "bad." I'm just making sure that people understand, exactly, what it does. Its a PW:S super-booster with a by-product of marginally increasing DA power, which is normally applied as a raid healer via PoH [Which, as a spell, values HST more].

    Once you understand that, it is easy to put a value on it for what you need to do for your role in your raid. It is far better to have that than say, "Stack MST cause BT= 14% HST and Disc is meant to bubblebot."

  16. #56
    The Patient Madam's Avatar
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    MST= 2.5% increase to PW:S & .75% increase to DA per 179.28 rating.

    HST= Makes spells go faster. 25% Haste = 1 extra 2.5sec cast within a 10sec period [or drops a 2.5sec cast down to 2sec].

    CRT= Chance for heal to be 200% normal amount. Activates DA on any heal & doubles DA on PoH crits.

    Math has been added, thank you, Spiritus Time for real life projects..till next time
    Last edited by Madam; 2011-07-19 at 11:59 AM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Madam View Post
    MST= 2.5% increase to PW:S & .75% increase to DA per 179.28% rating.
    Drop the % on 179.28.

  18. #58
    The Patient Madam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-] View Post
    Drop the % on 179.28.
    See what I get for rushing, now running late, but glad I checked before leaving, thank you as always.

  19. #59
    I know this may tip the stat thing slightly into some bias, but perhaps at least crit should be compared for tank vs. raid healing? This has come up in other threads and is a very simple, logical thing to look at. One of the reasons that comes to mind is that DA benefits from crit and it's more likely to be useful (meaning, not "wasted" by falling off) for a tank healer than a PoH DA on a DPS that's doing their job in avoiding damage. It's not to say to stack crit, but to show how crit affects Disc when its signature spells are absorption rather than heals.

    Of course, that can get into MST for disc since DA benefits from it too, but I'd be wary about getting into that mess...

    It also brings up the fact that in Cata, there's even less of a strict line between a tank and a raid healer; both will often help each other out, far more than occurred in Wrath. It's more of a difference of concentrating heals on a tank or two versus concentrating on everyone else. It's one of the reasons I hate this "bubble sniping" terminology, as though the only reason a disc priest would bubble someone "covered by another healer" would be to bump their HPS. Disc has almost never cared about HPS because it took so long for meters to track absorbs, and even then we're not crazy overhealers like druids can be with their HoT and multitarget healing capabilities.

    But I'm getting ranty, so I'll stop here for now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Power Torrent, Volcano and Theralion proc'ed, dots just refreshed. Everyone dies. Just a tank and a boss with around 200k hp. Everyone in vt yells "omg we failed omg omg" and you "don't worry amigos, my dots are steamrolling!". Boss dies while you'd say "Enjoy your loots" with a lot of purple awesomness spilling thru your voice. Just happend yesterday.

    Seriously, i thought i'd reroll warlock for 4.2, but that was the sign that i'm purple inside and i can't reroll. never.

  20. #60
    Im sorry any good disc priest will assume Borrowed time is up and for go any haste for more favorable shields and even makes crit more viable still Int spirit mastery is the real stat weighting haste and crit will be reforged and not enchanted or gemmed. If you are disc and using reckless gems or enchanting haste you are probably not in a serious raiding position or even raiding much at all. absolutely no fight will hinder you from getting a bubble out and using borrowed time nearly 100% of the time. I rest my case spill on and make more disc do subpar healing so firelands ranking is easy.

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