World of Rangecraft: Round 2 (Firelands: Analyze)

[Dannz]

Ass Rogue's Crippling poison spread via Instant Posion? Dk with Grip + 90% Slow? Warrior with Harmstring + Specced Immbolize, throwdown, charge stun?
Feral with slow built in with it's auto attacks?
Just to name a few things melee has as an advantage over ranged.

i said stuns and roots, not slows. CoI is no longer 90% slow, the only thing that immobalizes your target as a DK right now is the pet charge with dark transformation and/or the stun it has, and the hungering cold in frost spec, which instant breaks. and if i know blizzard correctly, adds that needs to be killed before reaching certain place will be immune to death grips, like the val'kyrs on lich king (they weren't immune at first, but blizz changed it cause obviously you are supose to kill them before that timer runs out)

warriors only got that immbolize ability if specced into arms, most warriors are fury so they won't have access to it. but they have other stuns, and again, i was pointing out melee without stuns and roots. if you got stuns ofcause you'll do fine on the sons, you can prolly bring one down on your own simply by locking it in place.

i think most ranged specs have a slow these days aswell, and if not, hunter traps do wonders. so the only thing melee really bring are the stuns for these adds, but warlocks also got that. ranged also have the ability to dps any add, from any location in that fight with just a character turn, while melee run around like headless chickens from 1 end to another.

and that was supose to be the phase that melee would shine... i can't see how this is not easier with just ranged :3

[ZHRGG]

Casters are at no advantage when it comes to hit and expertise rating because melee need less hit rating than ranged do because of the fact that they have to get to the expertise dodge cap.

Rogues need to reach spell hit cap, and if they stand at the front of the boss, expertise hard cap as well. So I would say rogues get shafted the most out of the bunch.

[mordale]

Melee don't lose any dps by moving, ranged don't have to be right next to the boss.

Pros and cons and all that

exepct now ranged don't lose dps while moving now, and have our surviability.
in addition to being able to dps from range.

[sicness]

Rogues need to reach spell hit cap, and if they stand at the front of the boss, expertise hard cap as well. So I would say rogues get shafted the most out of the bunch.

That's arguable in my opinion, since assassination rogues don't value expertise as much anyways, so that somewhat makes up for the fact that they desire more hit. I think the only true disadvantaged melee would be enhance shaman when it comes to the comparison of hit/exp for casters against melee.

[mordale]

Ass Rogue's Crippling poison spread via Instant Posion? Dk with Grip + 90% Slow? Warrior with Harmstring + Specced Immbolize, throwdown, charge stun?
Feral with slow built in with it's auto attacks?
Just to name a few things melee has as an advantage over ranged.

this is a pve discussion, not a pvp one.
and many of those "points" are false.

[Bombkirby]

exepct now ranged don't lose dps while moving now, and have our surviability.
in addition to being able to dps from range.

Actually some specs like Arcane mages have an enormous DPS loss if they are constantly on the move. Things like Hunters though can be perfectly fine running around on the move.

[eylieen]

and if they stand at the front of the boss, expertise hard cap as well.

he said 'in front of the boss', in that case expertise becomes the most valuable stat after hit even for assassination, surpassing mastery. on topic, the reason so many ranged classes are doing so well in this tier is, not only are many fights ranged-friendly, but are also multi-target. fights that allow/encourage multidotting give a massive advantage to ranged dot classes while hindering melee classes considerably. nef, asc council, magmaw (heroic), maloriak, v+t, halfus, chogall, alakir; all these fights favor multidot classes and don't offer the same advantages to melee. plus of course the many many bosses that need to be interrupted, which again gimps melee. the simple fact is, ranged have twice the options melee do (stand in melee, stand in ranged) to still do damage; if ranged have to run to melee, they're fine, if melee have to run to ranged they're doing nothing. there's no real way to fix this short of giving melee higher base damage than ranged to compensate for lack of multidotting/dps uptime, but that probably won't happen any time soon. i'd like to advocate a mainswitch, but i'm bad at every class except rogue =(

[cotton]

Hai guyz, can I haz cleavefang 2.0?....

On topic: The whole melee vs ranged thing was just really blown up by there being multiple targets that range could easily switch between and multidot. I think coming from a tier in which nearly every fight gave ranged little to no advantage and where melee dps were topping the meters to where we are now is why this "problem" is surfacing. If warriors, DKs, rogues, and ferals were still doing the faceroll dps like they had been, then most people wouldn't be complaining. /endrant

[Penguin FTW]

exepct now ranged don't lose dps while moving now

Yes they do lol, your insistence otherwise is just silly

[CrunkJuice5]

Dk with Grip + 90% Slow?

unless your a tank,death gripping in pve is majorly fail



eather way,its pretty disapointing if yet again firelands is ranged>melee dps.but i already set my expectation low so when i walk into firelands and get trucked because im a melee dps and end up getting replaced by a ranged dps im not gonna be to disapointed by it

its a shame that the raids cant be balanced right so where melee dps doesnt get sat out because of the design of the encounter,especially since.besides raiding theres really not much else to do,pvp is cool and all.but meh,whatever i already do that

[twinkleblur]

so glad im a caster. wont be seeing any warriors in that top spot for a looooooooong time.

[CrunkJuice5]

Yes they do lol, your insistence otherwise is just silly

you also lose dps when your standing under a void zone because your to busy oogling recount at your dps.dps shouldnt be all you look at in terms of raiding,to bad so many people dont share the same mindset i do

---------- Post added 2011-06-04 at 04:04 AM ----------

so glad im a caster. wont be seeing any warriors in that top spot for a looooooooong time.

warriors get nerfed every patch.im sure they would eventually not be in that top spot,plus if your guild has a melee dps as top dps then something is wrong and your ranged and casters must be terrible

[Penguin FTW]

you also lose dps when your standing under a void zone because your to busy oogling recount at your dps.dps shouldnt be all you look at in terms of raiding,to bad so many people dont share the same mindset i do

Don't assume that because people think dps is important (which most of the time, it really is) that their performance suffers from it.

---------- Post added 2011-06-03 at 11:08 PM ----------

dps shouldnt be all you look at in terms of raiding,to bad so many people dont share the same mindset i do

---------- Post added 2011-06-04 at 04:04 AM ----------


if your guild has a melee dps as top dps then something is wrong and your ranged and casters must be terrible

What the fuck

[Grizzly Willy]

Yes they do lol, your insistence otherwise is just silly

Kinda agree there. As a BM hunter, if I want to spend an extended amount of time, I have to take a 2600 AP loss by switching to Aspect of the Fox. Now, that said, in Fox I can do almost 100% of my rotation while running in the opposite direction of the target as long as I make sure to jump-turn in time with my auto-shots. Heck, you can even cast Steady/Cobra shot while running away as long as you make sure you're facing the target when you activate the spell, and again when the cast is finished.

[Ssith]

seems to me that the most damaging aspect of these fights, for melee, is the sheer number of target swaps that are made at 40+ yards.

any of the other issues are shared by casters.

that would be why it's Casterclysm. =/

[Deleted]

this is a pve discussion, not a pvp one.
and many of those "points" are false.

We are talking about the adds that spawns in a certain Ragnaros phase, which is slowable, stunnable etc.

Which is the point of this phase, the classes/roles with the best slows wins. And in this case it is the melee.

[Djuntas]

Agreed with all OP said.

Especially Ragnaros and me being feral druid. Its like saying a mage shouldent have his living bomb, or a warlock his best dot.... (you get the picture). Shred is buffed by talents, glyphs and it damage more than mangle.

Its very fun in Alakir phase2 I can tell ya, and whatnot other bosses/situations (Red phase Maloriak) I cant shred.

[Deleted]

And what exactly is the problem? OP can't be arsed dealing with encounter abilites? Let's just have 7 Argaloth bosses instead.

Even Argaloth favours ranged classes.

[Zetsu727]

If you look at the kill video, Ragnaros can be turned to the side in a similar fashion as Magmaw and melee are capable of hitting behind the boss and not being subject to the parry box.

Also, as a tank and a melee dps, I welcome the challenge. What I'm hearing from you is you're upset there are mechanics implemented keeping you from standing there and facerolling your priority queue. If you have trouble dpsing, moving, etc WHILE using your abilities, you have bigger personal issues to worry about before poorly analyzing Blizzard's raid mechanics.

[Imurbandaid]

If there are gonna be fights with 40+ yd add switches, then there should be mechanics in each of those fights that make a random player not in melee range get a debuff(say like one goes out like every 5 seconds or something) that requires said ranged player to run to the tank. And to stop ranged from just stacking with melee, have a punishing move if too many players are in melee range.