1. #21141
    Quote Originally Posted by The Monado View Post

    TLDR; Support Nidalee shouldn't get close enough to use iceborn gauntlet/cougar form abilities to it's full effect.
    For the record, I read it all :P

    Ok, situation sketch:

    Team A is standing at mid tower to defend. I come in from the side. I throw a diagonal spear through the group. It forces a silly carry (I'm not playing pro leagues, so bear with me) to slightly move west (actually East would be better, different pov, since I wouldn't eat turret fire, but for the example, it will suffice). I immediately follow this up with a spear throw on the carry, use R, W out. The target is slowed, gets picked off as a first target and completely molested. It's now 4v5.

    Let's say you are chasing a set of opponents. They're equally fast as you are. You switch to R, W twice, R switch back, AAT (javelin) the back of the first or more important target and pick it off from the group.

    I mean, it's not just on melee attacks. It's from basic attacks

    My thought process is to keep that spear to install fear. As long as people fear it, they will fear you. As long as they fear you, you become a target, which is something that's incredibly useful when you're called Nidalee and have virtually no way to get caught indefinitely.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-12-29 at 03:43 PM.

  2. #21142
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    I do not need to. I know what he wrote down? What are you getting at? I know I'm up against common sense. Hell, I might be up against math itself. I was referring to one person, not two. Duilliath usually comes with reasonable argumentation. I do not see why you have to repeat what he said.
    My bad for interpreting it in the wrong way then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    My thought process is to keep that spear to install fear. As long as people fear it, they will fear you. As long as they fear it, you become a target, which is something that's incredibly useful when you're called Nidalee and have virtually no way to get caught indefinitely.
    I don't think anybody that has the knowledge on how to counter her spears 'fears' Nidalee for just that. Perhaps if it's an AD Nidalee top-lane since she will be an actual threat instead of being used utility-wise as a support.

    Don't get me wrong, her poke is great. Also in bot lane. You can pull off some nasty zoning with Nidalee. The spears just aren't a major deal if you know how to dodge and/or sit behind minions to take the blow and have her steal some CS from her ADC.

  3. #21143
    Quote Originally Posted by personn5 View Post
    Which champ are you missing out on?
    ziggs, that damn yordle

  4. #21144
    Quote Originally Posted by Rampant Rabbit View Post
    Don't get me wrong, her poke is great. Also in bot lane. You can pull off some nasty zoning with Nidalee. The spears just aren't a major deal if you know how to dodge and/or sit behind minions to take the blow and have her steal some CS from her ADC.
    Which is exactly what you want people to do. Hide. Their frame of movement becomes so small, they can only move on half their lane, instead of the entire lane. Let's not discuss lane pressure, because I think we both agree it can be really heavy, depending on how often you hit/miss or the enemy comp. A Nunu can just sit and eat her Javelin, almost literally.

    I want that power, to make people dodge it. It's not about hitting, although the hitting itself is a nice bonus, I want them to fear it so they will want to get out of the way. It doesn't need to kill, but it needs to chunk their hp hard enough to make them go a way they do not want to go.

  5. #21145
    Herald of the Titans Zelgius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    For the record, I read it all :P

    Ok, situation sketch:

    Team A is standing at mid tower to defend. I come in from the side. I throw a diagonal spear through the group. It forces a silly carry (I'm not playing pro leagues, so bear with me) to slightly move west (actually East would be better, different pov, since I wouldn't eat turret fire, but for the example, it will suffice). I immediately follow this up with a spear throw on the carry, use R, W out. The target is slowed, gets picked off as a first target and completely molested. It's now 4v5.

    Let's say you are chasing a set of opponents. They're equally fast as you are. You switch to R, W twice, R switch back, AAT (javelin) the back of the first or more important target and pick it off from the group.

    I mean, it's not just on melee attacks. It's from basic attacks

    My thought process is to keep that spear to install fear. As long as people fear it, they will fear you. As long as they fear you, you become a target, which is something that's incredibly useful when you're called Nidalee and have virtually no way to get caught indefinitely.
    In the case that the enemy carry is actually that dumb to walk away from the group, yes then that's a nice way to pick them off, slow into initiate from your team etc.

    But the point is, if you are playing against relatively smart people (average) they won't randomly spread up at mid tower, they'll try to stay near eachother and try to force a teamfight. Why would they force a teamfight? Because you, as Nidalee are a poke-oriented champion, and have little to no use in an actual teamfight, if they have a malphite and he ults your carry, they go in 5v4, because you were on the side, throwing spears. You wouldn't even be in range to reduce their armor with W, or heal your carry.

    Another point to take into consideration is that by the time you finish the gauntlet, the enemy carry would probably have a Bloodthirster. And what happens if you poke an enemy carry who has a Bloodthirster? 3-5 hits on the minion, oh your spear is invalid again. Even better if it was an Ezreal or Sivir, since Ezreal could easily regain hp by just poking your teammates with his Q. Or Sivir could completly ignore your spears by just spellshielding them.

    If they are actually smart, they would ward where you were throwing your spears from, so they could avoid them easily. This isn't saying that every LoL player uses their brain as well as others, but it's common sense to avoid the spears you see heading towards you. So you're not going to hit every spear, you'll much rather hit 3 out of 10 spears, realistically speaking.

    Also on the point of chasing enemies, what could Iceborn Gauntlet do, that a Shurelia's use couldn't? You would gain the movement speed needed to catch up with them (most importantly, your teammates would gain the speed).

    In the end, it's just your opinion vs other people's opinions, just considering the fact that most people agree that AP Nidalee support isn't such a great support. In my own experience, I rarely see Nidalee supports and when I see them, they usually fail. Just my €0.02.
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  6. #21146
    Quote Originally Posted by The Monado View Post
    Also on the point of chasing enemies, what could Iceborn Gauntlet do, that a Shurelia's use couldn't? You would gain the movement speed needed to catch up with them (most importantly, your teammates would gain the speed).

    In the end, it's just your opinion vs other people's opinions, just considering the fact that most people agree that AP Nidalee support isn't such a great support. In my own experience, I rarely see Nidalee supports and when I see them, they usually fail. Just my €0.02.
    I posted the entire item build a few pages back. It's an edit upon an edit, but it's there. Shur is in it as well. And once more, it's actually not opinion versus opinion. Your post made clear that you believed that I'd use the Iceborn on melee attacks. I might even assume you didn't know better up till just now. I tried explaining what the possibilities are. And I'm fairly aware of x composition making you pay for that, versus Y composition allowing you to escape. That's talking so many variables, I can't, we can't, discuss that.

    I'm just saying, this (being a variable) is how I envision(ed) it.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-12-29 at 04:08 PM.

  7. #21147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollspwn View Post
    I wdish i was drunk , sadly just really bda at tuping with touch screen

    Well thats the thing, i was arguing that the distribution of gold is a lkot more comålicated than ad-ap-top-jungler-support. Its about hitting certain itemn timings b4 teamfughts. After an ap finishes dc for example he hits a power spike but slows down before his next item,the same way support completing aergis should be prooritized before Ad building a dagger after his IE. Supports getting gold in general has to be explored more, the AD cant farm 3lanes at pnce (unless its Ezreal huehue) and giving the support farm over the jungler or top might be a goodd idea in some cases.
    Still more readable than 50% of the LoL community! *ba-dum-tshh*

  8. #21148
    Herald of the Titans Zelgius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    I posted the entire item build a few pages back. It's an edit upon an edit, but it's there. Shur is in it as well. And once more, it's actually not opinion versus opinion. Your post made clear that you believed that I'd use the Iceborn on melee attacks. I might even assume you didn't know better up till just now. I tried explaining what the possibilities are. And I'm fairly aware of x composition making you pay for that, versus Y composition allowing you to escape. That's talking so many variables, I can't, we can't, discuss that.

    I'm just saying, this (being a variable) is how I envision(ed) it.
    No I'm just repeating what Dulliath said, when you AA in Human form, you'll still be in close range, since you can't apply the debuff with your Q's.
    ~ "Crying is a luxury I cannot afford." ~

  9. #21149
    Quote Originally Posted by The Monado View Post
    No I'm just repeating what Dulliath said, when you AA in Human form, you'll still be in close range, since you can't apply the debuff with your Q's.
    use iceborn gauntlet/cougar form abilities
    Then why this? It's not that I care whether you did or didn't, but if you were just repeating with Dul said, you were just repeating what Dull said. And I have already replied to that. What you said, seemed to link cougar (aka melee) abilities to Iceborn procs, so I wanted to clarify. As long as we're back on the same page, it's fine.

  10. #21150
    Herald of the Titans Zelgius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Then why this? It's not that I care whether you did or didn't, but if you were just repeating with Dul said, you were just repeating what Dull said. And I have already replied to that. What you said, seemed to link cougar (aka melee) abilities to Iceborn procs, so I wanted to clarify. As long as we're back on the same page, it's fine.
    Because using the proc still leaves you close range, and being in cougar form is also close range, that's why the slash is there. Not using iceborn gauntlet in cougar form.
    ~ "Crying is a luxury I cannot afford." ~

  11. #21151
    Quote Originally Posted by The Monado View Post
    Because using the proc still leaves you close range, and being in cougar form is also close range, that's why the slash is there. Not using iceborn gauntlet in cougar form.
    I normally don't equate "/" to -400 range, but ok

  12. #21152
    Elemental Lord Duilliath's Avatar
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    what range do you think ye average ad carry or mage type person has?

    sidenote, sona is relatively difficult for much the same reason ashe is: positioning is paramount. you're only squishy if you get hit... but her poke and utility go well beyond what nidalee offers.
    Last edited by Duilliath; 2012-12-29 at 09:10 PM.

  13. #21153
    Quote Originally Posted by Duilliath View Post
    what range do you think ye average ad carry or mage type person has?
    Not the point. Completely irrelevant. I am discussing semantics. Intended meaning of words. People have to read it and figure it out. Now, this has proven to be quite difficult for me to get across to you, but when people refer to close range, they often mean melee. When people give examples of close combat using a slash, that slash signifies that we're talking comparable items. Which, a range of 125 versus 525, they are not.

    So my understanding of what he posted was, that he thought or assumed I was about to use this in melee. The fact that he even added Cat form, when I personally never referenced it, emphasized that theory.

    Once more, I don't disagree with ranged still being "closer than really far" (which counts for most champions though). This was about what I thought he meant and apparently didn't mean. It's clear now, so we're back to just repeating what you said 2 pages ago, over and over

    Quote Originally Posted by Duilliath View Post
    sidenote, sona is relatively difficult for much the same reason ashe is: positioning is paramount. you're only squishy if you get hit... but her poke and utility go well beyond what nidalee offers.
    Isn't her poke just as far as any ranged champions default attack range?

    And really, relatively difficult? I think half the LoL community just LOL'd behind their computers. Positioning is paramount for any champion in this game.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-12-29 at 10:19 PM.

  14. #21154
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Isn't her poke just as far as any ranged champions default attack range?
    Yeah, but Sona doesn't have to stick to the target to poke her targets. All she has to do is dive by, press Q, and move away. She could be in and out before you have time to react, and you might end up chasing her which could very well be a bait for her ult, or allow their ADC to have a go at you while you target the support.

  15. #21155
    Quote Originally Posted by Rampant Rabbit View Post
    Yeah, but Sona doesn't have to stick to the target to poke her targets. All she has to do is dive by, press Q, and move away. She could be in and out before you have time to react, and you might end up chasing her which could very well be a bait for her ult, or allow their ADC to have a go at you while you target the support.
    I'll need some practice doing that :P My Lux adventure seems a little successful though. Can't say for sure until we've played multiple games together, but my last duo queue game he had a very good farm. I kept zoning Ashe + Leona, while he farmed creeps. Thing with Leona is that you never have her under her tower, but my friend only died once, due to never having met her :P He's levelling rapidly, but lacks experience with the many champions in the game, I guess.

  16. #21156
    Hi guys! I'm new to 30, trying to get better before I step into ranked. I main support for the most part (10 straight wins and counting with Janna) but I can play everything reasonably well besides jungle (don't know who, when, or how to gank).

    First off, would you advise playing support in solo queue? Carries seem very hit-or-miss as far as skill goes and it's always the support's fault when the carry gets greedy and dies.

    Also, I watch a lot of Wingsofdeath and Scarra's streams, but I haven't found a decent support player who streams and breaks down the game as well as those two. Any suggestions?

  17. #21157
    Yeah please main support, especially those aggressive ones like taric or leona, they works well with any ad carries, I rarely see good support in solo que ...

    Just make sure you ward properly, dont steal kill/farm from ur ad carry.

  18. #21158
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    I'll need some practice doing that :P My Lux adventure seems a little successful though. Can't say for sure until we've played multiple games together, but my last duo queue game he had a very good farm. I kept zoning Ashe + Leona, while he farmed creeps. Thing with Leona is that you never have her under her tower, but my friend only died once, due to never having met her :P He's levelling rapidly, but lacks experience with the many champions in the game, I guess.
    Well, to keep up with the pace, I (as Sona) joined two games. One practice bot game to get a feel for Sona again and one real match. I played Bottom together with Draaaaaaven and we basically trashed them. Their comp wasn't the standard issue support + ADC, but Vayne + Talon, which makes me think they'll lack the CS, but whatever.

    http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/35172588#history

    Game was quite exciting. Our TF had to leave at level 5 (he came back later), so we basically had to fend off 5 with 4. Bottom lane worked pretty well. Draven died 1 time the entire game, I died twice. We had this beautiful ACE with 2 man standing and a Quadra kill on Draven, after which I used Shur and we rushed the mid base tower and their forgotitsname. The extra minion spawn thing. The timing was so tight, we took it down the second they respawned.

    They tried to get a Baron, but one of us was smart enough to ward it (not me, actually, still struggling with the Sightstone + item limit + Sightstone cap)and I rushed in with an Ult that was just a tad bit too early, afraid to waste the moment. I died, but we had 3 or 4 man standing after that fight and they surrendered. Pretty golden actually.

    I for one will be watching my own replay :P Iron out the flaws. Site is offline atm, so I can't upload.

    And this Draaaaven was gooood.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-12-30 at 12:45 AM.

  19. #21159
    Quote Originally Posted by okayKilljoy View Post
    Hi guys! I'm new to 30, trying to get better before I step into ranked. I main support for the most part (10 straight wins and counting with Janna) but I can play everything reasonably well besides jungle (don't know who, when, or how to gank).

    First off, would you advise playing support in solo queue? Carries seem very hit-or-miss as far as skill goes and it's always the support's fault when the carry gets greedy and dies.

    Also, I watch a lot of Wingsofdeath and Scarra's streams, but I haven't found a decent support player who streams and breaks down the game as well as those two. Any suggestions?
    I personally think support is excellent for ranked. Youll almost always getr your prefferefv role and you will be able to avoidd most fights in lobby increasing your chance to win. Since few ppö main support there is a lot of room to outplay your opponent. Generally dupports are way more hit or miss than carrys in solo queue.

  20. #21160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Well, to keep up with the pace, I (as Sona) joined two games. One practice bot game to get a feel for Sona again and one real match. I played Bottom together with Draaaaaaven and we basically trashed them. Their comp wasn't the standard issue support + ADC, but Vayne + Talon, which makes me think they'll lack the CS, but whatever.

    http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/35172588#history

    Game was quite exciting. Our TF had to leave at level 5 (he came back later), so we basically had to fend off 5 with 4. Bottom lane worked pretty well. Draven died 1 time the entire game, I died twice. We had this beautiful ACE with 2 man standing and a Quadra kill on Draven, after which I used Shur and we rushed the mid base tower and their forgotitsname. The extra minion spawn thing. The timing was so tight, we took it down the second they respawned.

    They tried to get a Baron, but one of us was smart enough to ward it (not me, actually, still struggling with the Sightstone + item limit + Sightstone cap)and I rushed in with an Ult that was just a tad bit too early, afraid to waste the moment. I died, but we had 3 or 4 man standing after that fight and they surrendered. Pretty golden actually.

    I for one will be watching my own replay :P Iron out the flaws. Site is offline atm, so I can't upload.

    And this Draaaaven was gooood.
    Sona is one of my go to supports and the first one I found I enjoyed (Taric and Soraka? Boring as all hell). Learning how to poke with her and dominate the bushes is the hardest part of laning, because she is quite squishy. Once you hit 6 though you just rake in the kills. Her ult is so strong. I've won games from behind with well placed Sona ults.

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