1. #21141
    While im not claiming building AP on nid support is good i thhink you guys are jumping to unjust conclusions. The statement :"ad carrys will always use gold better" isnt necessarily always true. If the ad recently finished a big item like IE or PD they will not make mu h use of gold in the short term;here it could be better to let the support get a wave or two to complete shur or aegis for the next baron/dragon fight.

    Clg eu has been giving lrepo a bunch of gold so his zyra can build AP in recent matches,while the results of this hasmt always been convincing, it certainly shows it may be something to consuder. Simply disregarding anyones opinion necause " its mot what tje pros do" is just silly. Hobestly m not convinced by his reasonings but you guys are disnisiing new ideas way too fast.


    Sirry bout all the crappy spellong and formatting,wrote this pn my phone,hope its not unreadable!
    Last edited by Trollspwn; 2012-12-29 at 02:36 PM.

  2. #21142
    Go home Trolls, you're drunk.

  3. #21143
    I am Murloc! Xanjori's Avatar
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    There is a huge difference between Zyra and Nidalee. Nidalee has spears and heals that scale from AP, Zyra has 3 damaging abilities, all of which are gaurenteed to hit in a teamfight (unless somehow you are insanely bad) and also deal AoE damage, the ultimate alone is a good reason to get some AP in there.

    CLG.eu also run support jungler a lot, like Maokai, who picks up most of the support items, such as Shurelias and Aegis. It depends a lot on your team comp what you build.'

    I mean if you were playing Lux support, I could full on getting behind building Mejais as an item, because shes very good at picking up assists and staying alive, plus if you catch someone in a bind being able to follow up with a powerful ultimate can really turn a fight. If your nidalee spears arent hitting or are hitting the wrong target then you've literally wasted money, its totally why so few people even play Nidalee mid anymore, you need a very specialized comp to make her work.
    Last edited by Xanjori; 2012-12-29 at 02:50 PM.
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  4. #21144
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    There is a huge difference between Zyra and Nidalee. Nidalee has spears and heals that scale from AP, Zyra has 3 damaging abilities, all of which are gaurenteed to hit in a teamfight (unless somehow you are insanely bad) and also deal AoE damage, the ultimate alone is a good reason to get some AP in there.

    CLG.eu also run support jungler a lot, like Maokai, who picks up most of the support items, such as Shurelias and Aegis. It depends a lot on your team comp what you build.'

    I mean if you were playing Lux support, I could full on getting behind building Mejais as an item, because shes very good at picking up assists and staying alive, plus if you catch someone in a bind being able to follow up with a powerful ultimate can really turn a fight. If your nidalee spears arent hitting or are hitting the wrong target then you've literally wasted money, its totally why so few people even play Nidalee mid anymore, you need a very specialized comp to make her work.
    For the record, I never included Mejais in my build :P And I don't disagree. I'm just stating that I'm playing it a little different, right now, but I hardly have that sentence out, or I get my throat bitten out. I have no need for this. If you disagree, feel free and please post about it. But also do a little more than attacking me personally every single time and give me a reason.

    I can't do anything with:
    - LULZNUB
    - Welcome to 2009
    - ITS TRUE BECAUSE I SAY SO

    That's the work of trolls. This forum is better than that.

    Like, the post you made just now, the one that I quoted. That's a lot better than your original "YOUZ DOWN KNOOW WHAT SUPPORTS AREZ LULOL" post, isn't it?
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-12-29 at 03:01 PM.

  5. #21145
    I wdish i was drunk , sadly just really bda at tuping with touch screen

    Well thats the thing, i was arguing that the distribution of gold is a lkot more comålicated than ad-ap-top-jungler-support. Its about hitting certain itemn timings b4 teamfughts. After an ap finishes dc for example he hits a power spike but slows down before his next item,the same way support completing aergis should be prooritized before Ad building a dagger after his IE. Supports getting gold in general has to be explored more, the AD cant farm 3lanes at pnce (unless its Ezreal huehue) and giving the support farm over the jungler or top might be a goodd idea in some cases.

  6. #21146
    I am Murloc! Xanjori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Like, the post you made just now, the one that I quoted. That's a lot better than your original "YOUZ DOWN KNOOW WHAT SUPPORTS AREZ LULOL" post, isn't it?
    What, and comments like "Sona gives no lane presence" are well thought out and rational? Please.

    Tbh the new support items in most cases are worth more than AP. I mean supports can now get QSS for a team mate, twin shadows is amazing, the promote item is very very strong in the right place, true ice is great. I just feel that support got a whole new dimension of support added this season with those items and by just building AP all you are doing is shooting your team in the foot.
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  7. #21147
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    What, and comments like "Sona gives no lane presence" are well thought out and rational? Please.

    Tbh the new support items in most cases are worth more than AP. I mean supports can now get QSS for a team mate, twin shadows is amazing, the promote item is very very strong in the right place, true ice is great. I just feel that support got a whole new dimension of support added this season with those items and by just building AP all you are doing is shooting your team in the foot.
    Ok, you got me. That wasn't based on anything but my personal experience with her. Although that experience is from pre-S3. I just hate how slow she is. How fast she goes oom, even if she only pokes, and as far as I understood/understand the general NA forum, she has lost some viability.

    So all I can give you is, I don't like playing her. I'm sorry. Maybe it translates to, I got raped so often from all sides on Sona, that I'm scared to play her ever again. In other words, not my type of champion. I like something that challenges me. Like, with more skill comes more survival. Sona lacks that. She's utterly straightforward and boring.

    I like the new support items. I won't say I don't. I love playing Lulu full support and I just played Lux (with that friend of mine) to try her and ended up mainly going with support items and her skillset is still a constant threat. I miss this in Nidalee. I would have discarded her as a viable support, if I wouldn't somewhat believe that simply the presence of a high-power spear makes opponents more reluctant to engage. I'm talking from two days experience with Nidalee and you can't bring yourself to simply answering with some effort. In that case, you could have just ignored it.

    I look at a champion and I go:

    x Might be possible, Y might be possible, z might be possible. I use guides as a reference window, but not as the bible, so I try to keep using my brain. Why am I doing this. And I have reasons. So I'm glad to hear your reasons for discouraging it.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-12-29 at 03:22 PM.

  8. #21148
    Herald of the Titans The Monado's Avatar
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    The only items I'd actually consider on Nidalee support are Liandri's for more poke and Void Staff to make your spears actually do damage to high MR targets. Other than that it's usually a bad choice to even go Nidalee support. Like Dulliath said, Nidalee support could be useful in certain lane matchups like a Cait+Nidalee lane where you literally make the enemy AD get almost no cs. As Nidalee support, you won't get close enough to utilise the proc from Iceborn Gauntlet, and if you do, I don't even get why someone as squishy as you is on the frontlines. You could also say that Nidalee has "Good base ability values", but do you even get close enough to the enemies to utilise the damage from Cougar form? Usually that's only what a tanky/bruiser Nidalee on top does, which is why I find it questionable if these items/theories even work.

    TLDR; Support Nidalee shouldn't get close enough to use iceborn gauntlet/cougar form abilities to it's full effect.
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  9. #21149
    Quote Originally Posted by The Monado View Post

    TLDR; Support Nidalee shouldn't get close enough to use iceborn gauntlet/cougar form abilities to it's full effect.
    For the record, I read it all :P

    Ok, situation sketch:

    Team A is standing at mid tower to defend. I come in from the side. I throw a diagonal spear through the group. It forces a silly carry (I'm not playing pro leagues, so bear with me) to slightly move west (actually East would be better, different pov, since I wouldn't eat turret fire, but for the example, it will suffice). I immediately follow this up with a spear throw on the carry, use R, W out. The target is slowed, gets picked off as a first target and completely molested. It's now 4v5.

    Let's say you are chasing a set of opponents. They're equally fast as you are. You switch to R, W twice, R switch back, AAT (javelin) the back of the first or more important target and pick it off from the group.

    I mean, it's not just on melee attacks. It's from basic attacks

    My thought process is to keep that spear to install fear. As long as people fear it, they will fear you. As long as they fear you, you become a target, which is something that's incredibly useful when you're called Nidalee and have virtually no way to get caught indefinitely.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-12-29 at 03:43 PM.

  10. #21150
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    I do not need to. I know what he wrote down? What are you getting at? I know I'm up against common sense. Hell, I might be up against math itself. I was referring to one person, not two. Duilliath usually comes with reasonable argumentation. I do not see why you have to repeat what he said.
    My bad for interpreting it in the wrong way then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    My thought process is to keep that spear to install fear. As long as people fear it, they will fear you. As long as they fear it, you become a target, which is something that's incredibly useful when you're called Nidalee and have virtually no way to get caught indefinitely.
    I don't think anybody that has the knowledge on how to counter her spears 'fears' Nidalee for just that. Perhaps if it's an AD Nidalee top-lane since she will be an actual threat instead of being used utility-wise as a support.

    Don't get me wrong, her poke is great. Also in bot lane. You can pull off some nasty zoning with Nidalee. The spears just aren't a major deal if you know how to dodge and/or sit behind minions to take the blow and have her steal some CS from her ADC.

  11. #21151
    Quote Originally Posted by personn5 View Post
    Which champ are you missing out on?
    ziggs, that damn yordle

  12. #21152
    Quote Originally Posted by Rampant Rabbit View Post
    Don't get me wrong, her poke is great. Also in bot lane. You can pull off some nasty zoning with Nidalee. The spears just aren't a major deal if you know how to dodge and/or sit behind minions to take the blow and have her steal some CS from her ADC.
    Which is exactly what you want people to do. Hide. Their frame of movement becomes so small, they can only move on half their lane, instead of the entire lane. Let's not discuss lane pressure, because I think we both agree it can be really heavy, depending on how often you hit/miss or the enemy comp. A Nunu can just sit and eat her Javelin, almost literally.

    I want that power, to make people dodge it. It's not about hitting, although the hitting itself is a nice bonus, I want them to fear it so they will want to get out of the way. It doesn't need to kill, but it needs to chunk their hp hard enough to make them go a way they do not want to go.

  13. #21153
    Herald of the Titans The Monado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    For the record, I read it all :P

    Ok, situation sketch:

    Team A is standing at mid tower to defend. I come in from the side. I throw a diagonal spear through the group. It forces a silly carry (I'm not playing pro leagues, so bear with me) to slightly move west (actually East would be better, different pov, since I wouldn't eat turret fire, but for the example, it will suffice). I immediately follow this up with a spear throw on the carry, use R, W out. The target is slowed, gets picked off as a first target and completely molested. It's now 4v5.

    Let's say you are chasing a set of opponents. They're equally fast as you are. You switch to R, W twice, R switch back, AAT (javelin) the back of the first or more important target and pick it off from the group.

    I mean, it's not just on melee attacks. It's from basic attacks

    My thought process is to keep that spear to install fear. As long as people fear it, they will fear you. As long as they fear you, you become a target, which is something that's incredibly useful when you're called Nidalee and have virtually no way to get caught indefinitely.
    In the case that the enemy carry is actually that dumb to walk away from the group, yes then that's a nice way to pick them off, slow into initiate from your team etc.

    But the point is, if you are playing against relatively smart people (average) they won't randomly spread up at mid tower, they'll try to stay near eachother and try to force a teamfight. Why would they force a teamfight? Because you, as Nidalee are a poke-oriented champion, and have little to no use in an actual teamfight, if they have a malphite and he ults your carry, they go in 5v4, because you were on the side, throwing spears. You wouldn't even be in range to reduce their armor with W, or heal your carry.

    Another point to take into consideration is that by the time you finish the gauntlet, the enemy carry would probably have a Bloodthirster. And what happens if you poke an enemy carry who has a Bloodthirster? 3-5 hits on the minion, oh your spear is invalid again. Even better if it was an Ezreal or Sivir, since Ezreal could easily regain hp by just poking your teammates with his Q. Or Sivir could completly ignore your spears by just spellshielding them.

    If they are actually smart, they would ward where you were throwing your spears from, so they could avoid them easily. This isn't saying that every LoL player uses their brain as well as others, but it's common sense to avoid the spears you see heading towards you. So you're not going to hit every spear, you'll much rather hit 3 out of 10 spears, realistically speaking.

    Also on the point of chasing enemies, what could Iceborn Gauntlet do, that a Shurelia's use couldn't? You would gain the movement speed needed to catch up with them (most importantly, your teammates would gain the speed).

    In the end, it's just your opinion vs other people's opinions, just considering the fact that most people agree that AP Nidalee support isn't such a great support. In my own experience, I rarely see Nidalee supports and when I see them, they usually fail. Just my €0.02.
    ~ "I'll blow you away... Monado Cyclone!" ~

  14. #21154
    Quote Originally Posted by The Monado View Post
    Also on the point of chasing enemies, what could Iceborn Gauntlet do, that a Shurelia's use couldn't? You would gain the movement speed needed to catch up with them (most importantly, your teammates would gain the speed).

    In the end, it's just your opinion vs other people's opinions, just considering the fact that most people agree that AP Nidalee support isn't such a great support. In my own experience, I rarely see Nidalee supports and when I see them, they usually fail. Just my €0.02.
    I posted the entire item build a few pages back. It's an edit upon an edit, but it's there. Shur is in it as well. And once more, it's actually not opinion versus opinion. Your post made clear that you believed that I'd use the Iceborn on melee attacks. I might even assume you didn't know better up till just now. I tried explaining what the possibilities are. And I'm fairly aware of x composition making you pay for that, versus Y composition allowing you to escape. That's talking so many variables, I can't, we can't, discuss that.

    I'm just saying, this (being a variable) is how I envision(ed) it.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-12-29 at 04:08 PM.

  15. #21155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollspwn View Post
    I wdish i was drunk , sadly just really bda at tuping with touch screen

    Well thats the thing, i was arguing that the distribution of gold is a lkot more comålicated than ad-ap-top-jungler-support. Its about hitting certain itemn timings b4 teamfughts. After an ap finishes dc for example he hits a power spike but slows down before his next item,the same way support completing aergis should be prooritized before Ad building a dagger after his IE. Supports getting gold in general has to be explored more, the AD cant farm 3lanes at pnce (unless its Ezreal huehue) and giving the support farm over the jungler or top might be a goodd idea in some cases.
    Still more readable than 50% of the LoL community! *ba-dum-tshh*

  16. #21156
    Herald of the Titans The Monado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    I posted the entire item build a few pages back. It's an edit upon an edit, but it's there. Shur is in it as well. And once more, it's actually not opinion versus opinion. Your post made clear that you believed that I'd use the Iceborn on melee attacks. I might even assume you didn't know better up till just now. I tried explaining what the possibilities are. And I'm fairly aware of x composition making you pay for that, versus Y composition allowing you to escape. That's talking so many variables, I can't, we can't, discuss that.

    I'm just saying, this (being a variable) is how I envision(ed) it.
    No I'm just repeating what Dulliath said, when you AA in Human form, you'll still be in close range, since you can't apply the debuff with your Q's.
    ~ "I'll blow you away... Monado Cyclone!" ~

  17. #21157
    Quote Originally Posted by The Monado View Post
    No I'm just repeating what Dulliath said, when you AA in Human form, you'll still be in close range, since you can't apply the debuff with your Q's.
    use iceborn gauntlet/cougar form abilities
    Then why this? It's not that I care whether you did or didn't, but if you were just repeating with Dul said, you were just repeating what Dull said. And I have already replied to that. What you said, seemed to link cougar (aka melee) abilities to Iceborn procs, so I wanted to clarify. As long as we're back on the same page, it's fine.

  18. #21158
    Herald of the Titans The Monado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Then why this? It's not that I care whether you did or didn't, but if you were just repeating with Dul said, you were just repeating what Dull said. And I have already replied to that. What you said, seemed to link cougar (aka melee) abilities to Iceborn procs, so I wanted to clarify. As long as we're back on the same page, it's fine.
    Because using the proc still leaves you close range, and being in cougar form is also close range, that's why the slash is there. Not using iceborn gauntlet in cougar form.
    ~ "I'll blow you away... Monado Cyclone!" ~

  19. #21159
    Quote Originally Posted by The Monado View Post
    Because using the proc still leaves you close range, and being in cougar form is also close range, that's why the slash is there. Not using iceborn gauntlet in cougar form.
    I normally don't equate "/" to -400 range, but ok

  20. #21160
    Immortal Duilliath's Avatar
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    what range do you think ye average ad carry or mage type person has?

    sidenote, sona is relatively difficult for much the same reason ashe is: positioning is paramount. you're only squishy if you get hit... but her poke and utility go well beyond what nidalee offers.
    Last edited by Duilliath; 2012-12-29 at 09:10 PM.

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