1. #25921
    High Overlord Ragu4's Avatar
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    Anyone notice that whoever builds the most tank items faster tends to win? Last game had a J4, Blitz, Kayle, Shen and Xin and all 5 of them just build pure tank, and we couldn't do much due to them having naturally high dmg. However i'm finding this game MUCH easier to play now that iv'e started playing dota 2, lol.

  2. #25922
    I am Murloc! Thallidomaniac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragu4 View Post
    Anyone notice that whoever builds the most tank items faster tends to win? Last game had a J4, Blitz, Kayle, Shen and Xin and all 5 of them just build pure tank, and we couldn't do much due to them having naturally high dmg. However i'm finding this game MUCH easier to play now that iv'e started playing dota 2, lol.
    Yes. Since they made Armor and MR more expensive and health cheaper, rushing Giant's Belt into a Warmog's later is the new form of snowballing a lane.
    Last edited by Thallidomaniac; 2013-02-10 at 09:02 AM.

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  3. #25923
    Scarab Lord Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thallidomaniac View Post
    Yes. Since they made Armor and MR more expensive and health cheaper, rushing Giant's Belt into a Warmog's later is the new form of snowballing a lane.
    Depends on how many CC enemy team has. If someone with high health build tries to be too cocky, he usually ends with being CCed and killed when he is separated from team. Or if enemy team has strong pokes (like nidalee, jayce, viktor, leblank) building health can be countered.

    And some heroes has build-in defensive steroids (Garen, J4, Cho, Rammus, Sion, Maokai), for example, building Cho in health can be a total failure, because you will have low amount of armor/MR and be easy target to shut down because you don't have means to recover you health quickly (unlike Mundo). Building MR/Armor on some heroes are rewarding (Garen, Rammus) Garen has extra 30% defensive stats, Rammus will hit harder.
    Just building Belt into Warmog's is not a form of snowballing, even with it you can lose hit trades to champions with easy escape (Rene, Lee, Xin, Vi), and building health against ranged champions (Jayce, Teemo, Nida) on top will end bad
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2013-02-10 at 09:23 AM.
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    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  4. #25924
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Doran's Blade, Boots, Phage, Hexdrinker, Brutalizer, Mercury's, Black Cleaver, Frozen Mallet, Atma's, Malmortius, Alacrity on Mercury's, Last Whisper.
    No Warmogs? What the hell, that build is terrible. Skip the phage and frozen mallet and get a warmog instead. Also skip Atmas the item is terrible. Black cleaver and last whisper can be built if you are top lane but when you jungle just go full tank. Runic Bulwark, Randuin and Locket are all good options.

    Edit: Also don´t ever start dorans Blade on jarvan.
    Last edited by Trollspwn; 2013-02-10 at 09:50 AM.

  5. #25925
    Quote Originally Posted by Karrotlord View Post
    Hi, y'all.
    I've been away for over 2 months, since before the new items came out. What on earth am I gonna get myself into when I come back? What items rose to prominence? Who is Vi? Does AP/bruiser Moakai still work? I took a liking to him before my leave. And whatever else you think I need to know.
    Vi is an insanely strong jungler (I'd compare her with Shyv but she can gank, has better mobility and some cc!). Did bruiser Mao ever work? Can't remember a single game where the game was influenced by a mao that didn't build like a tank (only exception was a mao who build dcap after having his FH at 9min...game was already over at that point).

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Depends on how many CC enemy team has. If someone with high health build tries to be too cocky, he usually ends with being CCed and killed when he is separated from team. Or if enemy team has strong pokes (like nidalee, jayce, viktor, leblank) building health can be countered.

    And some heroes has build-in defensive steroids (Garen, J4, Cho, Rammus, Sion, Maokai), for example, building Cho in health can be a total failure, because you will have low amount of armor/MR and be easy target to shut down because you don't have means to recover you health quickly (unlike Mundo). Building MR/Armor on some heroes are rewarding (Garen, Rammus) Garen has extra 30% defensive stats, Rammus will hit harder.
    Just building Belt into Warmog's is not a form of snowballing, even with it you can lose hit trades to champions with easy escape (Rene, Lee, Xin, Vi), and building health against ranged champions (Jayce, Teemo, Nida) on top will end bad
    A high health target might survive being cocky. Everyone else wont and a warmogs is THE item to counter poke. You just ignore it. And Belt into warmogs is a possible way of snowballing the lane. Obviously only viable on bruisers but they can rely on their base damage early on anyway and they will deal more damage in a fight by surviving longer than by having some additional damage. If you can't abuse the fact that you have nearly twice the hp and insane regen in lane you are doing it wrong (assuming the enemy didn't get any hp). Depending on who you are an early giants belt into brutalizer or sunfire might be stronger than the instant warmogs although it's hardly ever a big mistake going warmogs.

    About not stacking HP on Garen and Rammus: Sure they scale with Resistance but their EHP will still rise more with HP than resistance.

    @J4 build: Depends on if you if you lane top/mid or jungle. Top: Cloth+5 or Boots+3, Biants belt, Brutalizer, Sunfire or Warmogs (sunfire adds more damage the earlier you can get it), Hexdrinker or Aegis, Black Cleaver etc. I suck at giving item builds though because I hadrly ever build a fixed path and change it every game depending in my needs and who is fed.

    Mid against AD would be the same. Against an AP you'd most likely get something like a Hextech and a dorans earlier so you can instantkill them at 6. If you can't reach them a warmogs will keep you in lane and make nearly impossible to kill for most AP champs.

    Jungle: Don't complete the wriggles. Madreds is enough and go into tanky items (warmogs, aegis, Sunfire) if you don't get fed, add a brutalizer somewhere inbetween and complete it later.

  6. #25926
    Also warmogs makes it so towers aren't nearly as lethal in the early game. If you're winning your lane and rush a warmogs you can harass the guy under tower.

  7. #25927
    Elemental Lord Duilliath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollspwn View Post
    No Warmogs? What the hell, that build is terrible. Skip the phage and frozen mallet and get a warmog instead. Also skip Atmas the item is terrible. Black cleaver and last whisper can be built if you are top lane but when you jungle just go full tank. Runic Bulwark, Randuin and Locket are all good options.

    Edit: Also don´t ever start dorans Blade on jarvan.
    I completely overlooked that post on account of Firebert giving Build advice again.

  8. #25928
    Scarab Lord Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meteo View Post
    A high health target might survive being cocky. Everyone else wont and a warmogs is THE item to counter poke. You just ignore it. And Belt into warmogs is a possible way of snowballing the lane. Obviously only viable on bruisers but they can rely on their base damage early on anyway and they will deal more damage in a fight by surviving longer than by having some additional damage. If you can't abuse the fact that you have nearly twice the hp and insane regen in lane you are doing it wrong (assuming the enemy didn't get any hp). Depending on who you are an early giants belt into brutalizer or sunfire might be stronger than the instant warmogs although it's hardly ever a big mistake going warmogs.

    About not stacking HP on Garen and Rammus: Sure they scale with Resistance but their EHP will still rise more with HP than resistance.

    @J4 build: Depends on if you if you lane top/mid or jungle. Top: Cloth+5 or Boots+3, Biants belt, Brutalizer, Sunfire or Warmogs (sunfire adds more damage the earlier you can get it), Hexdrinker or Aegis, Black Cleaver etc. I suck at giving item builds though because I hadrly ever build a fixed path and change it every game depending in my needs and who is fed.
    You don't need high HP to eat pokes, you need moderate health, armor or MR to mitigate incoming damage (or defensive CD, like Barrier, or golden aegis, or Mao ult, rivens shield) and health regen. If you won't recover poked health, you will end up being on same health as anyone else (i.e. losing Belt advantage) and only base damage to deal damage.
    Personally, (on tanky bruisers) i prefer building aegis + upgraded boots first to get more versatility (i can sustain damage due to higher armor+MRes+regen and avoid ganks with increased movement speed). Building warmog as first item is very expensive, and you will be easy target to kill (due to lane phase, mid laner and jungler can easily dive into you tower and rape you)

    And to get get twice amount of health on line you need to have at least 2 belts -.-
    Winning lane and building more tanky IS a way to win games, but i want to point out that building straight health as first items (especially if your mid lane was lost) not always worth it, since you will be probably ganked several times or zoned out of lane.

    And from personal experience, you don't want to rush one stat (as bruiser), you need to rise all your stats to dominate lane early (like getting Armor+5 pots on top against riven and then rushing armor boots), and building straight health is not a instant win option
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  9. #25929
    How is Kha'zix nowadays? Has he been nerfed? His win% is pretty low but he seems interesting.

  10. #25930
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybr1d View Post
    How is Kha'zix nowadays? Has he been nerfed? His win% is pretty low but he seems interesting.
    Khazix's win rate is 47.37%, but the problem is that his ban rate is 72.41%. Looks like he's still quite powerful if he warrants that much of the ban hammer.
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  11. #25931
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    kha still op as fuck

  12. #25932
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    You don't need high HP to eat pokes, you need moderate health, armor or MR to mitigate incoming damage (or defensive CD, like Barrier, or golden aegis, or Mao ult, rivens shield) and health regen. If you won't recover poked health, you will end up being on same health as anyone else (i.e. losing Belt advantage) and only base damage to deal damage.
    Personally, (on tanky bruisers) i prefer building aegis + upgraded boots first to get more versatility (i can sustain damage due to higher armor+MRes+regen and avoid ganks with increased movement speed). Building warmog as first item is very expensive, and you will be easy target to kill (due to lane phase, mid laner and jungler can easily dive into you tower and rape you)

    And to get get twice amount of health on line you need to have at least 2 belts -.-
    Winning lane and building more tanky IS a way to win games, but i want to point out that building straight health as first items (especially if your mid lane was lost) not always worth it, since you will be probably ganked several times or zoned out of lane.

    And from personal experience, you don't want to rush one stat (as bruiser), you need to rise all your stats to dominate lane early (like getting Armor+5 pots on top against riven and then rushing armor boots), and building straight health is not a instant win option
    Warmogs = Best HP and regen item... that's what i was talking about. It's the best item against poke if you only consider one single item.

    Additionally most bruisers deal more damage by going HP first because the additional damage they would do with with damage items is completely negated by the fact that they can stay in the fight longer. There is a reason why Hp stacking works so well and became so popular.

    I've got a real problem with your logic how the best overall defensive item makes you EASIER to kill and dive than not having one at all. Obviously having more hp wont automatically win you the lane but denying the enemy the ability to all in you while you still can all in him, gives you a really strong advantage in lane.

    But in the end we will just have to agree that we disagree

  13. #25933
    Herald of the Titans The Monado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    YAY Lu Bu J4 is finally here immediatly logged in, got it and got my J4 on.

    SUCH a cool skin, love how his ulti looks, just a shame I only remember when I started playing, I'm actually pretty terrible at J4 FAR to much "helping" and nowhere near enough killing...

    anyone got a decent J4 build
    Quote Originally Posted by Rampant Rabbit View Post
    Something like: Trinity Force, Black Cleaver, Last Whisper, GA, Warmogs
    Pretty much what Rampant Rabbit said, rush a giant's belt or something, start with either bead +6 pots and a ward or flask + pot + ward.
    Get a brutalizer early, then make your t-force, finish cleaver, then finish your warmogs or go for the last whisper. Add in GA or Locket/Bulwark to the mix and you'll be a carry-demolishing machine.
    Skills: Q>E>Q>E>Q>R>Q>W>Q>E>R>E>E>W>W>R>W>W. You don't need W early because it's too mana intensive.
    Runes: I'd go 9x Arpen Mark and 3x AD quint, seal and glyph should be obvious.
    Masteries: 9/21/0, you don't need 21 in offense, since the build allows you to decimate enemy carries in mere seconds.

    ~Advice from a Gold I 100% J4 winrate player. Don't disregard bruh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durmindo View Post
    I dont own Him i would suggest mobafire And lolking guides, i dont like solomid it just sems such a mess
    Don't you dare mention that abomination here, mobafire builds are written by people who usually don't even have a clue of the game, don't even try those builds lol. Lolpro/Solomid ftw.
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  14. #25934
    Scarab Lord Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meteo View Post
    Warmogs = Best HP and regen item... that's what i was talking about. It's the best item against poke if you only consider one single item.

    Additionally most bruisers deal more damage by going HP first because the additional damage they would do with with damage items is completely negated by the fact that they can stay in the fight longer. There is a reason why Hp stacking works so well and became so popular.

    I've got a real problem with your logic how the best overall defensive item makes you EASIER to kill and dive than not having one at all. Obviously having more hp wont automatically win you the lane but denying the enemy the ability to all in you while you still can all in him, gives you a really strong advantage in lane.

    But in the end we will just have to agree that we disagree
    I didn't said that best overall item makes you easier to kill, I said that getting HP item (like belt) can be easily countered buy poking you in the face with range skills, or pulling creeps on you. Not all top lane duels starts at 100% vs 100% health, usually you want to weaken your enemy and force your creeps to hit him (like when you have 6 ranged creeps and he has last one melee, if he is still in range on creep attack, you can stun/slow him so he will eat damage from them).

    IMO the best item against poke is a Banshee =)
    And Omen brings much more utility into a fight than Warmogs
    I mean extra HP can be negated by long-range poke and bringing ONLY HP is a bad thing to do, while bringing less HP but mixed with armor/MR (depending on threat) is good, but even with armor/MR you need means to recover your lost health (lifesteal, regen, abilities, potions).
    I tried building Rene into sunfire and it was horrible, i did zero damage on line, i had 400 more health and ton of armor on line, but enemy irelia hit me twice as hard and i couldn't even deal damage to her due to healing from her lifesteal. But if i fight on top and mine enemy builds warmog, usually it won't end good for him since i still be able to crush through it with hit-and-run tactic.

    Maybe i think like this because of that horrible olaf with 7/0/0 at 15 minute and boot+phage+warmog who owned our J4 on top and then went bot to kill us but gave me +500 shutdown and proceed to try to kill me under tower resulting 4 more kills and almost free Big Fucking Sword
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2013-02-10 at 02:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  15. #25935
    Banshee is not great vs poke, it's not bad either though. It shines vs initiation (like those binds people fish all day long, or perhaps wild mumu/malphite ult). Extremely good on kiters to build on. (for example Ashe with that thing will just slow bruiser who will not get his secondary effect from gap closer and walk away, for example Xin Zhao charging it will not get his slow off, and between furor boots, frost arrows and PD/SS there is nothing to keep him in range anymore).
    Sunfire is OP as hell, no other item gives so much damage on it's own, but it has some limits.

    I don't personally know how good randuins is, because ... well it's a bit weird item at the moment, gives some edge over AD carry, but it's no longer that old item which had killer AS reduction, it's more like just slow/hp/armor item now. But warden's mail, the thing you build it from is extremely good item in lane vs autoattackers. Unlike tabis it also affect on-hit guys like Irelia.

    When talking about poke, I think the best item against it is bulwark.
    Last edited by AFK-Champion; 2013-02-10 at 02:48 PM.

  16. #25936
    I am Murloc! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    cool, thanks for all the builds, I'll be trying them out momentarily...

    time to ddduuunnnkkk!
    Reading A Song of Ice and Fire is like playing with an adorable puppy, then someone comes up out of nowhere, shoots the puppy and punches you in the face.

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  17. #25937
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    I didn't said that best overall item makes you easier to kill, I said that getting HP item (like belt) can be easily countered buy poking you in the face with range skills, or pulling creeps on you. Not all top lane duels starts at 100% vs 100% health, usually you want to weaken your enemy and force your creeps to hit him (like when you have 6 ranged creeps and he has last one melee, if he is still in range on creep attack, you can stun/slow him so he will eat damage from them).

    IMO the best item against poke is a Banshee =)
    And Omen brings much more utility into a fight than Warmogs
    I mean extra HP can be negated by long-range poke and bringing ONLY HP is a bad thing to do, while bringing less HP but mixed with armor/MR (depending on threat) is good, but even with armor/MR you need means to recover your lost health (lifesteal, regen, abilities, potions).
    I tried building Rene into sunfire and it was horrible, i did zero damage on line, i had 400 more health and ton of armor on line, but enemy irelia hit me twice as hard and i couldn't even deal damage to her due to healing from her lifesteal. But if i fight on top and mine enemy builds warmog, usually it won't end good for him since i still be able to crush through it with hit-and-run tactic.
    Banshee is a terrible item against constant poke actually. You would need to not be hit for 25 seconds to get the shield back. It's more of an item to counter champions who have one ability that will mess you up if they land it. Warmogs at least provides regen to sustain some of the damage.

  18. #25938
    Quote Originally Posted by Thallidomaniac View Post
    Yes. Since they made Armor and MR more expensive and health cheaper, rushing Giant's Belt into a Warmog's later is the new form of snowballing a lane.
    This. Most champs add a Brutalizer into the equation right after the Giant's Belt. This makes for a very solid, but rather cheap early-mid build.

  19. #25939
    It's an interesting feeling when you get so fed as Poppy that your ult is more for just ignoring CC rather than damage. Triforce/Gunblade/Shurelya's/GA with a score of 19/2/9. Didn't even use my ult sometimes because I was chasing Kat and Graves away from their entire team in a 1v2 situation and neither wanted to stop running. Was more like let the one I catch die so the other can get away.

    Oh Poppy, you so unfair to the enemy sometimes. Too bad it's hard to lane as Poppy and she has no wave clear for mass farming. Apparently Riot doesn't want to try to make Poppy viable for competitive play because of how oppressive she can be. I guess that makes sense considering she can win games all by herself if she gets items. They cant really mess with her ult or passive without ruining who Poppy is like how you cant change Shen's ult.

  20. #25940
    I am Murloc! Thallidomaniac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilz View Post
    It's an interesting feeling when you get so fed as Poppy that your ult is more for just ignoring CC rather than damage. Triforce/Gunblade/Shurelya's/GA with a score of 19/2/9. Didn't even use my ult sometimes because I was chasing Kat and Graves away from their entire team in a 1v2 situation and neither wanted to stop running. Was more like let the one I catch die so the other can get away.

    Oh Poppy, you so unfair to the enemy sometimes. Too bad it's hard to lane as Poppy and she has no wave clear for mass farming. Apparently Riot doesn't want to try to make Poppy viable for competitive play because of how oppressive she can be. I guess that makes sense considering she can win games all by herself if she gets items. They cant really mess with her ult or passive without ruining who Poppy is like how you cant change Shen's ult.
    It's not just Poppy, quite a bit of champions are still not viable in competitive play due to being nerfed because their kits are toxic to pub games (i.e. Heimerdinger, all the melee carries, not counting AP Yi because that's something different), they can't deal enough damage in teamfights overall or survive massive burst damage (i.e. LeBlanc, Brand, Annie, Veigar), their kits are completely outclassed by others (Viktor, Volibear borderline because while GG did pick him, he wasn't able to bring much to their team, Sejuani) or the kits were not designed to fit with the current meta. (Karma)
    Last edited by Thallidomaniac; 2013-02-11 at 06:46 AM.

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