Yep, loving Zyra. One of the most fun AP mids in the game. It's really fun when they stand in your ult so the knockup hits everyone and your team kills people off in those few secs they can't fight back.
Haven't ran into anyone who I would say counter her. I even out pushed a Cassiopeia. Kassadin could potentially be really annoying. Swain post 6 would also be an issue unless you knock him up before he ults.
Actually today there was a teamfight in which our Twitch killed their Zyra in a last standoff and Twitch won.
But then the plants finished Twitch off and it was a double ace.
I was hitting the plants too, but they hit back with a big middle finger attitude. :P
I haven't played him myself, but I'm not interested in trying him out cause he is, sadly, very similar to Master Yi, as in, he is mostly AA damage except his ulti.
I'm not a 14 year old kid who plays one game against a certain champion, can't beat him 1v1 through smashing my buttons and whine about them being OP. My thoughts have come after I have played with/against about 20 Xin Zhaos and in all the games (except one, where the Xin on my team thought it was a sin to use your abilities), he has been in either the most damage dealt champion, second or third at worst. I have gone through his skill set alot and compared with others.
You are right about the Q cdr. I wrongly worded the scaling of ulti. I realize that it is bonus AD.
Lets look at the cd on his abilities:
Q: 5 sec at max rank
W:12 sec at max rank
E: 9 sec at max rank
R: 80 sec at max rank
Xin is said to be played as a bruiser. However due to his ulti, W passive and Q giving massive survive options, he doesn't need to stack alot of tank items. He can go with a hybrid built, and most guides I have seen so far just suggest the same. They suggest 3 tank items (including boots) and then 3 dps items. It depends however, but you can get 2 dps at least or 4 dps at most. Looking at his build, he will atleast have 20% CDR from items. Taking a base of 20% cdr JUST from items, the cd on his abilities are as follows:
Q: 4 sec at max rank
W: 9.6 sec at max rank
E: 7.2 sec at max rank
R: 64 sec at max rank
Now add the 3 sec cdr from Q and you have
W: 6.6 sec
E: 4.2 sec
R: 61 sec.
This is simply too LOW cd on abilities.
Other champions with ability CDR I can think of are Ez whose Q which gives CDR on hit and his other abilities have a long cd. Skarner who is pretty much built around CDR and AS but overall have high cds except his Q, there is another one with Q reducing other abilities by 1 sec but I can't remember who. I don't remeber/know any other. All of these champions have built in CDR cause they have very high CDs on other abilities and are more dependent on abilities then AA.
W being 80% AS steroid has way too less CD and has no consequences for using it at the wrong time. As a matter of fact, your W will be pretty much up all the time cause it has a duration of 5 sec and a cd of 6.6 sec, which can be dropped further below btw. No other AS steroid is this powerful and have no side-effects.
Tristana's 90% AS has a 7 sec duration but 20 sec cd, use it at the wrong time and you have hampered your team.
Fiora has a 120% AS but with a 3 sec duration and 11 sec CD, it is also her escape/grab closer, but Fiora is in a pretty bad situation overall being a melee carry etc.
Graves 4 sec AS but at the cost of an escape/gap closer with a 14 sec cd.
Twitch has a 5 sec AS but at the cost of his escape/stealth with a 8 sec cd.
Eve gains 120% AS for 3 sec but after getting two hits with 9 sec cd.
WW, 80%, 10 sec AS buff with a 16 sec cd. The only one who comes close to have having a none-consequential heavy AS steroid, but still not as much as Xin.
Every champion has to think and calculate when to use their AS steroid. Xin, not so much.
Rest all of the get stacks for AS through certain means and not insta AS at will, you need to "work" to get it.
Because of this OP AS steroid, his Q, you should built a BT on Xin and along with the passive (heal) from W, he will end up having unrivaled self healing.
W being an aoe slow/damage along with a gap closer which also applies the passive at a 4 sec cd just sounds wrong. Comparing it to Akali's, she can use three chargers, EACH charge has a 15 sec cd and doesn't apply any other effects unless you have her Q on the target. Besides, Akali is an assassin, Xin is a bruiser.
As I said before, he can go Q+W+E on a person, kill them, then do the same on other in no time or do it on the same person again in no time.
Xin is a bruiser, but can do what a carry can with his AS steroid and what assassin's do with his insta charge.
And his ulti is just ridiculous. The base damage at rank 3 does 15% HP damage (which can be count as true damage) along with 325 BASE damage. It has a RADIUS of 375. In a team fight, if you happen to hit three people, that's a total of 45% true damage dealt PLUS 975 (not counting ANY bonus damage), knocking them back (granted none are "challenged") and giving Xin 75 MR and armor.
If you happen to hit all 5 (very rare occasion though) you will do 75% damage and 1625 BASE damage. It can be count has one champion dead.
It's just ridiculous damage.
You say he is fucked with just one cc when built like a glass cannon. The thing is, you won't be doing that cause it's dumb. As I said before, you will give him a hybrid build with a BT cause of retarded AS and W passive. What about others where he can pretty much chain cc them into oblivion? And how can you say he will kited when he can pretty much Q+W+E, where he will close the gap, getting in some heavy AAs (which in the only thing he does really) and knocking the enemy into the air. If you survive this combo, it won't take long for Xin to use it again. I have given you the numbers above, and they are the low end, not high end.
And he won't be going to charge all the time during lane phase, no one is going to use their abilities all the time during lane phase, but the fact it, he will do much more damage then others without having to think.
Xin, right now, is a very low risk and very very high reward champion. His abilities have no consequences whatsoever, he can be built to have too much sustain, can be built to have great survivability and can be built to have great damage all at the same time.
I've been trying Zyra jungle for a couple of games today and...it works. It's not SSS-tier but it works. Her first clear is slightly slower than standard (we're talking slightly. Her damage on Q is really nice) and she really needs a proper leash (if you even mention superman leash, I will cut you) but yeah, she's got decent ganks and very nice base damage so unless you get juked to hell and beyond you should be fine and once she gets some AP items her clears become ridiculously easy. Couple that with the ability to place free wards while invading so you don't walk right into the jungler and I'd say she's pretty nice.
Of course, there's also dueling. She'll lose unless the jungler is someone rlysquishy. Guaranteed.
---------- Post added 2012-07-25 at 11:18 PM ----------
Besides, I had a winning streak of 5 games yesterday. I guess today is canceling that out.
Xin's damage is definitely crazy at the minute. I've had Xins absolutely wreck faces with nothing but a Wriggles and T1 boots (and that was in a game where I was fed). More than a few times I've heard someone on Teamspeak / in game chat going "Jesus Christ that damage!" about a xin zhao.
Re: Xin - rule of thumb. Don't whine about a champions unless you actually played him. Goes for Yorick as well. Good news for some people: Yorick will be receiving some nerfs. Xin can now finally be properly balanced and they might tone down his damage if they think it's too much.
Last edited by Duilliath; 2012-07-26 at 12:22 AM.
In which case, what the hell are you doing clearing your lane instead of assassinating people like a good Fizz?
But idk, I still do it sometimes, I am at 1100 rating.
I never do such things with Ezreal though, his E cooldown is just way too high to waste it for a minion last hit.
Fizz his E cd is not very long.
Can you make me a new sig please.....? :P
Last edited by Bananarepublic; 2012-07-26 at 12:32 AM.
Just started playing as Evelynn, I'm 11/13 in wins since I started. Really enjoying it so far, never played her before the rework but the new Eve is pretty pwn. Best score so far - jungling - was 8/1/12. Her Ultimate <3
ne porvivajo nur mortigi tempo
I'm not really sure what you the guides are suggesting but if you end up with a ghostblade I can see the ~20% cdr. Otherwise he will probably be at zero, as the rather standard Wriggles (later sold for BT) / Atmogs / Triforce / boots doesn't really net any cdr. Maybe you get 10% from blue, but that's beside the point. Possibly more depending on what masteries you're running too.
I'll leave the numbers as they are for the sake of the argument, though usually your cdr isn't going to be that low.
One thing about his ult that you are misstating is the 15% of their health. It's applied as physical damage not true damage. It says so in the tooltip. I had to test in a custom game too, but armor heavily mitigates the damage done by the ult. Even on targets that have gobs of HP. You have to account for armor when you are considering his damage, there are plenty of champions that just have ridiculous numbers on paper, but get shut down my armor/mr. So the baseline of 1625 damage if you hit your entire team would probably slashed in half or so. Some targets would have a lot more than the 50% threshold, some would have less. The damage is certainly good, and it scales now too, but it's not an insta victory in a team fight as you are painting it.
And you are grossly overestimating the healing his W does. At max rank it does 50 healing every three hits. Which to be honest is rather worthless in a teamfight. With a triforce it goes up to 68 I think, but that is still a very tiny number. It's good in lane, and it's good in the jungle, but it's not going to save you. When you put a BT into it and consider that his sustain too, you are skewing things. Give any ad champion a BT and their sustain goes up a lot. I know you are saying it's because of the AS steroid that he has, but you have to build him tanky. The majority of the time you're not going to be able to get the BT very early, if at all. (I don't play him in lane, so I'm not sure about there, I only have jungle experience on this) Maybe you can build him like riven and try to abuse the AD the BT gives you, but it would leave you too squishy. He is a bruiser that has no tanking abilities outside of his ult. Which requires you to hit multiple members of their team before it gives you any MR/Armor. Granted it's not hard to charge into a team and hit R, but you are going to get stunned or silenced a lot before you get a chance to ult. Though you really shouldn't be the first one into a team fight.
Lets say you do get in, and ult all 5 people. You now are a lot tankier and a very big threat. Shame on the enemy team for stacking like that. Though you said it's unrealistic to hit the whole team so i'll give you that. Three is not too hard, but still not very likely. Though really his ult is a lot better for displacing people that the damage it does. To me that's the really proper use for it.
I'm not really sure why you keep bringing akali into this either. She can store three charges of her charge, and she gains one on kill or assist. Which Xin Zhao doesn't. I'm really not sure what you are trying to say with that. She has a spammable dash that will end up doing much more damage than xin's because she builds AP, and it can be used three times, and possibly 8-9 in a team fight assuming everything dies. You're going to get maybe 2-3 charges with xin at most.
If you open with your E and then immediately W and Q, your charge goes down to 4.2 seconds. Which that means you can't really do anything in the team fight until that charge comes back up. The vast majority of the time you are going to be heavily slowed in fights. If you aren't that's awesome, but speaking from experience, slows completely destroy your damage and sticking ability. Or say if the champion has a displacement move. Lets say you charge Tristana and she jumps away. You didn't get your TTS off, so your charge is now on a 7 second cd and you're stranded. It is a good move for sure, but you are over valuing it.
I'm not going to argue anything you've said about TTS. It is very strong right now, and might get a slight base damage or scaling nerf. I don't know though. They did fix the problem of his CDs spiraling out of control with it though. Before the CD reduction on hit was on his AS steroid. And if you got far enough ahead, you could basically keep TTS and your E almost always up. So they fixed that part of him with the more practical get three seconds off with TTS.
Your main argument seems to be that his W is way overpowered for it's cd and what it provides. It does provide a lot of AS, but you're not going to have any AS on Xin outside of a triforce. Maybe you got black cleaver, but i'm still iffy about that item. I'm not sure it's as good as it was because of his passive now, but that's also beside the point. You get a nice AS boost off of your base AS. You don't become a killing machine all of a sudden. You hit faster, but it's not like other AS steroids where the champion is already expected to have some extra AS. It is a rather low risk move, but it doesn't boost your damage to insane amounts. If you aren't getting focused and you get to just rip through their team, then ya it's really going to make the difference, but Xin Zhao is a bruiser. You are one of the first into the fight (unless you are trying to peel your carries) and you are going to eat the initial cc that you don't want you carries to get hit by. Sometimes that's an exhaust, sometimes it's other things.
He is not a particularly risky champion, but his dominance ends once the early game has. He scales much better than he used to, which actually makes him useable now, but you still aren't going to do much if you didn't do well in the early game. His early damage is insane, but you also have to remember that he has no way to escape outside of the knockback on his ult. It's natural for a champion that has no way to get away is going to do more damage than one that can. Kog maw does some of the highest damage in the game, but he has absolutely no way to escape outside of his slow. Graves does a lot of damage, but not quite as much as kog, but he has an escape. You see where I'm going with this. The most mobile champions tend to have a little less damage since they have the added mobility. Xin Zhao has very little mobility. His only movement move is one that puts him at the enemy. He is a go for broke champion, and his moves reflect that. Once you've committed to a fight you don't get to turn away and escape.
And I can only hope that by hybrid you mean tank/dps and not what hybrid is understood to mean (AD/AP)