1. #9741
    Quote Originally Posted by saberon View Post
    Actually, the inverse is true. The more armor you have, the less effect Last Whisper would have.

    Imagine you have 50% ArP:
    320 Armor = 76.2% reduction.
    160 Armor = 61.6% reduction.
    Result: 14.6% Difference.

    Now if you have 200 Armor:
    200 Armor = 66.7% reduction.
    100 Armor = 50% reduction.
    16.7% difference.

    Additionally, armor is in fact linear in its effect. It does not get weaker the more you have.
    sorry, your math is is bad

    first - equation 1-(100/(X+100)) where X is armor value, is not linear (inverse is true - graph approaches 100% reduction but never reaches it) make graph in excell and u will see
    second your example is not valid, because there is no 50% reduction of armor (last whisper reduce 40%) and because funktion is not linear, samples are behaving not linear (50AR - 30AR = 10,2 %difference), (100AR - 60AR = 12,5% difference), (200 AR -120AR = 12,2 %difference) and so on

  2. #9742
    I don't think we need formulas and excel spreadsheets to figure this out.

    LW is a 40% armor pen. The more armor your target has, the more effective it is.

    Stacking armor is still effective at helping to shut down a fed AD carry, whether they get LW or not.

    OK - we good here, folks?

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  3. #9743
    Quote Originally Posted by asmodei View Post
    sorry, your math is is bad

    first - equation 1-(100/(X+100)) where X is armor value, is not linear (inverse is true - graph approaches 100% reduction but never reaches it) make graph in excell and u will see
    Whilst the % reduction diminishes, its overall effectiveness does not. Think about it - At 98% reduction, an additional 1% halves the damage you take. At 0% reduction, 1% reduces damage by... 1%. The more % reduction you have, the more valuable each additional % of reduction is. That's why the Armor Rating to % Ratio increases - to keep the overall value of armor linear.

    second your example is not valid, because there is no 50% reduction of armor (last whisper reduce 40%) and because funktion is not linear, samples are behaving not linear (50AR - 30AR = 10,2 %difference), (100AR - 60AR = 12,5% difference), (200 AR -120AR = 12,2 %difference) and so on
    My examples are valid. Firstly, you get 10% reduction from talents on top of the 40% from LW. That's 50%. Secondly, 50% is easier to calculate than 40%. And third, since we're working in %, and we're not looking at definite numbers but rather % change, I can use whatever value i bloody well like and the examples would still be valid as an example.

    As I said, more armor means LW removes more. But it is still super effective. And linear.
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  4. #9744
    Quote Originally Posted by saberon View Post
    As I said, more armor means LW removes more. But it is still super effective. And linear.
    sorry your math is bad, but dont worry this is academic rank of math (knowledge of derivation calculus is needed to comprehend) but only basics are needed to model graph in excell

    only small example:
    if u use
    Y1=1-(100/(X+100)) - actual damage reduction before LW applied
    Y2=1-(100/((X*0,6)+100)) - actual damage reduction after LW applied
    Y3 = Y1-Y2 - percentual difference
    X is flat value of armor

    u will see that in interval (0-130 flat armor) armor graph reduction difference is increasing, but after 130 peak armor reduction difference graph starts to decrease

    http://imgupload.sk/viewer.php?file=...2eirnl2rbt.jpg

    "more armor means LW removes more" this statement can be true, but important is damage reduction (% value) and not armor (flat value)

    another conclusion - what if damage reduction is linear? u can go beyond 100% damage reduction? it means that dmg will be increasing your HP instead of decreasing?
    Last edited by asmodei; 2012-04-30 at 03:16 PM.

  5. #9745
    OHGODWHATHAVEISTARTED.

    a + b = c

    Where A = Yorick, B = lots of Armor, and C = baws

  6. #9746
    Quote Originally Posted by saberon View Post
    Actually, the inverse is true. The more armor you have, the less effect Last Whisper would have.
    If that were the case, this graph must be turned the wrong way.

  7. #9747
    Quote Originally Posted by Qauren View Post
    OHGODWHATHAVEISTARTED.

    a + b = c

    Where A = Yorick, B = lots of Armor, and C = baws
    I lol'd, hard.

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  8. #9748
    Yeah your statement was true, and that graph shows that.

    Putting that silly argument aside XD
    However I kind of don't like graphs like that because it doesn't take into account BC's attack speed bonus. The graph should take average damage over 5 seconds or something. and then I am pretty sure BC's damage could actually be closer to LW. Just saying the actual effect in game would be different than what it shows.

    However I think the purpose of that graph was just to show the trend of armor and LW then it's cool. Just pointed it out.
    Last edited by Elial; 2012-04-30 at 03:02 PM. Reason: Typo

  9. #9749
    Quote Originally Posted by Elial View Post
    Yeah your statement was true, and that graph shows that.

    Putting that silly argument aside XD
    However I kind of don't like graphs like that because it doesn't take into account BC's attack speed bonus. The graph should take average damage over 5 seconds or something. and then I am pretty sure BC's damage could actually be closer to LW. Just saying the actual effect in game would be different than what it shows.

    However I think the purpose of that graph was just to show the trend of armor and LW then it's cool. Just pointed it out.
    There was actually another graph that showed DPS instead of just damage per hit and BC wins out until about 300 armor. BC gives 800'ish gold worth of attack speed for just 550 or so extra, what it comes down to is whether or not you're primarily using skills or autoattacks.

  10. #9750
    Scarab Lord Xanjori's Avatar
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    Im not sure what to say, but I think mostly you are talking a different thing. Yes LW is more effective than BC when the opponent has higher armour, but even with LW armour has a very strong impact on reducing your damage. Its pretty obvious from that graph, that even against a LW at 300 armour you've reduced your opponents damage by nearly 70%.
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  11. #9751
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    Im not sure what to say, but I think mostly you are talking a different thing. Yes LW is more effective than BC when the opponent has higher armour, but even with LW armour has a very strong impact on reducing your damage. Its pretty obvious from that graph, that even against a LW at 300 armour you've reduced your opponents damage by nearly 70%.
    The point isn't the numbers on the graph, it's the curve of it.

  12. #9752
    Scarab Lord Xanjori's Avatar
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    Except that at 300 armour, armour is still reducing the enemies damage vs LW, maybe if the graph flattened out later then you can say its pointless to go to that armour value vs a LW. Quite clearly in this case there is nothing bad at all going 300 armour vs a LW.
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  13. #9753
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    There was actually another graph that showed DPS instead of just damage per hit and BC wins out until about 300 armor. BC gives 800'ish gold worth of attack speed for just 550 or so extra, what it comes down to is whether or not you're primarily using skills or autoattacks.
    Ah thanks was about to say. Usually the only person I really get LW for is Rammus or someone stacking insane armor. Besides him I go BC.

    @xanjori, yes it is "Technically" reducing the enemies damage the more you get, but as you can see, at a certain point the extra reduction you get per point of armor is actually not worth the gold you are spending on it. You would probably gain more from buying hp. If I had to look at that graph I'd say at about 200-220 would be the max cutoff point. Anything more than that kinda wastes your gold

  14. #9754
    Scarab Lord Xanjori's Avatar
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    Except the guy listed his items, Frozen Heart + Randiuns, at which point the attack speed slow are probably the biggest DPS decreases you could have in this game. Seeing as they combined offer nearly 200 armour, then Ninja tabi are _always_ 10% reduction vs AAs, then no, there is no inefficiency to this build at all, these 3 items rank as probably the most gold efficient items in the game.
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  15. #9755
    I just started playing LoL.... general noob question: How do the bases activate on Dominion? Like how can you make them start shooting?

  16. #9756
    Quote Originally Posted by ElementalThreat View Post
    I just started playing LoL.... general noob question: How do the bases activate on Dominion? Like how can you make them start shooting?
    You have to capture them (click on the towers themselves), once you've capped a tower it will shoot automatically at enemies unless it's no longer under your control or an enemy is capturing it (You'll see them shooting a beam at the tower, deal damage to them and the animation stops and the tower will shoot again).

  17. #9757
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    Except the guy listed his items, Frozen Heart + Randiuns, at which point the attack speed slow are probably the biggest DPS decreases you could have in this game. Seeing as they combined offer nearly 200 armour, then Ninja tabi are _always_ 10% reduction vs AAs, then no, there is no inefficiency to this build at all, these 3 items rank as probably the most gold efficient items in the game.
    I wasn't commenting on anyones build, I was purely jumping on the comment that getting 300 armor is still a damage reduction. That isn't true gold to armor value-wise. The other passives of the items that brought him to 300 armor. Now that is a different story and would need a completely different graph.... yet again -.-

    On a side note. With the introduction to the active on Morellos evil tome. Will it be worth it to buy vlad still? I was considering him, and then I saw that.

    Edit : Since we went there. Does the AS slow from Frozen heart and Randuins omen stack?

  18. #9758
    Scarab Lord Xanjori's Avatar
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    Yes they do. It the same with Wither. Nasus+these items will reduce your AD carry to 1 attack per 8 seconds.
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  19. #9759
    Moderator Axethor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elial View Post
    I wasn't commenting on anyones build, I was purely jumping on the comment that getting 300 armor is still a damage reduction. That isn't true gold to armor value-wise. The other passives of the items that brought him to 300 armor. Now that is a different story and would need a completely different graph.... yet again -.-

    On a side note. With the introduction to the active on Morellos evil tome. Will it be worth it to buy vlad still? I was considering him, and then I saw that.

    Edit : Since we went there. Does the AS slow from Frozen heart and Randuins omen stack?
    If anything, it pushes Vlad to play solo top more than mid, but he is still a fine pick. Also, you are forcing either the support, AP carry, or both to buy Morello's, so I consider that a win. Kinda like if you see a Malz on the enemy team you should take cleanse or buy QSS.

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  20. #9760
    Pandaren Monk Kurdiern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axethor View Post
    If anything, it pushes Vlad to play solo top more than mid, but he is still a fine pick. Also, you are forcing either the support, AP carry, or both to buy Morello's, so I consider that a win. Kinda like if you see a Malz on the enemy team you should take cleanse or buy QSS.
    ? Vlad's always been top. Much better top then he is mid. He shits on most common picks top and his pool lets him lane top relatively safely. Runnign him top lets you run another mage mid for double WotA.

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