10 man group problems

[chess173]

I am the main tank for a casual 10 man raid group. We have been raiding successively for the most part. But the last couple of weeks we have been hitting a brick wall mainly on Ascendant Council. I think its a problem with one of our healers. We can make it to phase 3 with each bosses being consecutively close to 25%. The problem is that the one healer is OOM be the middle of phase 2, thus causing more healing strain on our other 2 and them low on mana by phase 3. Our group is melee heavy which is not all that good for this fight, we run with 2-3 melee depending on which range shows up that night. Our group is mostly: War tank(me), TG war, Frost DK, Lock, Boomkin, Disc priest, resto shaman, and resto druid(questionable healer). With either a DK or druid OT, arms war or hunter being our last dps.

As best a link to the druid healer I can make: chardev org/?profile=137424

[vizzle]

There's no reason to go oom, especially in p2, there's hardly any damage at all. The druid needs to learn how to play, especially when you can give him 2 innervates on CD + mana tide on CD.

Anyway, are you kiting the boss out of the pool? Popping hero when p3 starts? Do you have logs you can link?

[chess173]

We are kitting the boss out of the pools and popping hero at the start of p3. I do not have logs from this weeks attempt I'll try to get them from this weeks attempts.

[Deleted]

I'm assuming this is on normal mode. If that's the case, with his gear that druid should not be anywhere near Oom at any point in that fight. However it's possible that it's not their fault, people could be taking too much damage or the other 2 healers could be slacking early on and forcing him/her to pick up the slack in P1. Or they could just be playing terribly.

A log would really help, gotta look at what spells the druid is using and how much HPS all that mana is being turned into relative to the other healers. Also how much of what damage the raid is taking, more info on your strat would help.

Btw 2-3 melee isn't bad for the fight. 3 is slightly less optimal than otherwise but 2 is perfectly fine.

Edit: Checking the spec there's some problems there. I'm not an expert on druid specs but even I can see some completely illogical things, like passing up a +4% to all healing talent in order to get a +2% to only rejuv talent... but then also passing up what's probably the best Rejuv talent later on in the tree. It's just all over the place, doesn't seem optimized at all. They also took the Regrowth talent which kinda makes me think they use that spell a lot, which could explain all the mana issues.

[Fudruker]

yeah druids are the ones up there in mana regen they should almost neve be going oom if they play it right i think what happened is you just found out who you are carrying because your other healers just cant make up for the difference anymore.

[chess173]

Well we just got done attempting this boss more, forgot to log the first attempts. Did get the last few but we changed the strat on the last 2. This is the only log I got for our attempt to phase 3.

worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-reeleet61j7xtmgc/dashboard/?s=146&e=558

[PHsname]

On normal mode, p2 should be a regen phase. There's almost no damage as long as you're playing with the mechanics properly. It's almost all on the tanks.

Make sure your ranged DPS are spreading out properly.

Make sure your Druid's Lifebloom uptime is as close to 100% as possible. Revitalize is a Druid's main source of regen. It also provides Replenishment, and unless your Lock is running in that one spec (can't remember off the top of my head), he's the only source of it in your raid. Look over his logs. On that fight, he should have at LEAST 90% uptime even if he's lazy about it. If he's good, it'll be something like 95%+.

EDIT
I took a quick look at your logs.

Your Druid isn't the main problem. You have many problems.

First, your raid's DPS is very, very low. Only one of them went past 10k in that pull you linked. That just makes the fight longer and longer, and getting through p3 is going to be impossible for your healers.

Second, it looks like your Druid is carrying you in heals. He did nearly twice as much as your other two healers. His Lifebloom uptime is a pathetic 31.1% on that pull. He needs to work on that. It's a central part of Druid healing. He's also spamming nothing but Regrowth. That is terrible. It is a terribly mana-inefficient heal. Tell him to learn how to use Healing Touch and Nourish more.

Your Shaman needs to figure out how to output better numbers. His spell usage is better than your other two, but his raw numbers are still terribly low. He needs to cast more or something.

Your Disc Priest is terrible as well. Casting bubbles is fine, but not casting a single Greater Heal or Heal, and spamming Flash Heal? That is also terrible, and is a great way to go OOM for no reason.

Your healers need only to cast a fast heal if the person is in immediate danger of dying in the next two or three seconds. Otherwise, you can use a more efficient one.

Their numbers are very bad overall. Yes, even your Druid's.

[Deleted]

I'd say it was a combination of the druid trying to epeen the meters by casting too many regrowths in tandem with 2 other healers that aren't really pulling their weight.

The druid has fairly low uptime on LB and his mana regen will suffer as a consequence. And he's casting far too many regrowths which will be oom'ing him unless he's getting an uber lucky number of OOC procs which I very much doubt.

That said, the priest only has 75% activity and has v high use of Flash Heal especially for a Disc Priest, No PoM's and silly low Penance healing.

I've never played a shammy of any spec, so i'll not comment much apart from to say that to me his output looks mighty low.

With the druid spamming regrowth and the priests spam of FH I can't help think that there is a lot of fast raid damage occuring but it's late and I'll call it quits here as I cba finding the healers on the US armoury as I'm EU .

If someone could post armoury links of the 3 healers I'd be eternally grateful, nn!

[Ilam]

Had a look at your shaman. A few points on gearing, and on spell usage etc.

armory link: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nanii/advanced

- His int is very low for that item level. I would suggest swapping out Blood of Isiset immediately for one of the following trinkets, in order from lowest to highest priority:

Tear of Blood
Core of Ripeness
Fall of Mortality/Tyrande's Favorite Doll
DMC: Tsunami

I'm also not a fan of JoAR either, because Int is our best stat by a long way and while the regen is great, doesn't help much if your heals are low (his GHW should be hitting for 6-7k more??).

- Fix gems: way too much spirit; gem Int +40 unless socket bonus is +20 Int, in which case gem +20 Int/+20 Mastery or +20 Int/+20 Spirit. Int=throughput, bigger mana pool (should be ~100k unbuffed), increased crit chance
- Meta Gem should be +Int +max mana (Ember Shadowspirit Diamond) - again...don't gem for spirit
- Sparkling Chimera's Eye???? Should be Brilliant Chimera's Eye +67 Int, you're wasting your profession bonus there
- On professions...Mining not the best choice for healer...consider Alchemy, Enchanting (more money to make too) although all crafting professions are ~equal for rsham
- Missing Therazane enchant
- Upgrade enchants - you've got 359 gear you can afford to shell out for e.g. +50 Int on cloak, +40 Int shield, upgrade to Powerful Ghostly Spellthread on legs
- Missing Ebonsteel Belt Buckle
- Haste too high - reforge to mastery to hit the extra Earthliving tick breakpoint (916)
- Take 3 points out of Nature's Guardian (PvP talent...HIGHLY not recommended for PvE) and put those points in Ancestral Swiftness (2) and Acuity (1); take two points out of Cleansing Waters (really not necessary unless you're doing a loooot of dispelling / playing PvP) and put them in Acuity (now on 3).
- Totemic Reach is also not that great...opinions vary...your options are take the point out, take one out of Acuity, go 2/2 Telluric Currents for mana regen (if you have enough downtime) or take the point out, put it in 1/2 Ancestral Resolve (for survivability). Up to you but 15% range is not much and you should be re-dropping totems as req anyway.
- Run ZA/ZG - you can replace Head, Shoulder, 346-Ring slot with better items...shouldn't be too much trouble (Spiritbinder's Spaulders + Mask of Restless Spirits + Soul Drain Signet)
- Has Glyph of Healing Wave but doesn't cast Healing Wave??? I would replace with Glyph of Stoneclaw for a short cooldown 16k absorb
- No Glyph of Earth Shield? If your rsham is tank heals, he needs that glyph...if he's raid heals, Earthliving is OK. Ideally, your mana regen/spell usage/healer team should be good enough so he can get rid of Glyph of Water Shield altogether, and have both Earthliving and Earth Shield.

spell usage:

- Earth Shield uptime a little low (~82%) - consider using Power Auras / Grid / Vuhdo etc. to track this, ES is a very efficient heal and should have 100% uptime (refresh on < / = 2 stacks)
- Water Shield uptime is good, 92%...try and keep it at 100% (Power Auras helps)
- 50% of heals are GHW???? 77% uptime on Riptide??

Along with significant gearing problems, that's why he's OOM. Gearing properly will help with throughput, meaning less reliance on GHW. But Riptide needs to be rolling constantly...if not on three targets then at least on two (tanks, or tank + melee, tank + ranged taking significant dmg)

Tank heal 'rotation' - ES, Riptide (for Tidal Waves), Healing Wave, Healing Wave, (Tidal Waves runs out) HW/GHW, Riptide...etc learn to love Tidal Waves

For quick heals - Riptide, GHW, GHW - that's your HPS moneyshot

Raid heals - Healing Rain, Riptide on cooldown, HW spam

Make sure you've got Nature's Swiftness macroed in with GHW

...and have a look at Radux's guide!! hope this helps

[Deleted]

Having had a look at the druids gear / spec on the armoury (thanks Ilam), his spec is a little odd, If I were him I'd:
1) Move the 3 points from Genesis into Moonglow.
2) He should put points into: Nat Shapeshifter and swift rejuv for definate, and as personal preference into Natures Swiftness and Empowered Touch. The points I'd remove are from BotG, Living Seed and at least 1 from Natures Bounty.

Gearwise it looks ok, nothing too bad but:
Wrong meta gem, 2% more mana or 2% less threat, not really a tough choice here.
Hastes fairly good, giving DI to the resto druid would increase his output, enchants are good, gemming is pretty good (bar the meta).
I'd replace the Spirit trinket for an Int one if possible, ideally the Tear from Heroic Stonecore last boss or Core of Ripeness from VP's.

Tbh sorry to break it to you, but none of your 3 healers play their class well at all, and judging by the dps figures the same can be said for the dps. The Frost DK is mega bad (I'd kick him from a 5man for doing that dps and I very rarely kick), but in truth non of the dps'ers really shine.

What slightly amuses me is that you seem to be worried about the druid healer when he is the only one of the 3 healers who is actually putting out much healing (albeit via bad regrowth spam).

Your Druid isn't the main problem. You have many problems.

^ pretty much sums it up.

[chess173]

The main reason i was worried about the druid was him going oom very fast on almost every boss fight. Of course that could have been a bad attempt to link forgot to start logging till our last few attempts and people was starting to get irritated and not do as good as they could have.

[Dracodraco]

The main reason i was worried about the druid was him going oom very fast on almost every boss fight. Of course that could have been a bad attempt to link forgot to start logging till our last few attempts and people was starting to get irritated and not do as good as they could have.

Not at all. You don't change your healing style just because you get annoyed. The druids just doing it wrong - he thinks he's a "pick me up" healer, trying to snipe people to full with regrowth, while druids are much better "blanket" healers still.
Theres still different "roles" for healers, even if they can all DO the other jobs, some are just more efficient. Your shaman and disc priest are the most efficient tank healers of those three, with the disc having another edge on the raid using his/her shields (too much movement to make good use of healing rain in that fight).
Your druid has 512K healing done through regrowth, now, my druid in full 359 gear does 8K healing with a regrowth unbuffed, with 3K extra healing ticking.
Thats 11K healing done over 4-5 seconds, for the cost of 5935 mana.
My rejuvenation on the other hand, ticks for 3.6k 5 times over 12 seconds, along with an initial 2.2k heal. thats 20K healing done WITHOUT any crits over those 12 seconds, BUT, remember, it has no cast time - which means it has roughly the same throughput as a regrowth (if youre target isn't about to die like, RIGHT NOW). For the cost of 3391 mana, 57% of what a regrowth costs. It's also on a 1 second GBC with the talent.
Healing touch costs 5086 mana, and hits for 20K.

Basicly, he has to get his prioritys straight - regrowth is only used to activate Nature's Grace once a minute, and preferably only with a clearcasting proc.
Lets take as an example:
Target is at 80K/110K health. Nothing can kill him in the next few seconds. You cast a rejuv to tick him up.
Target is at 30K/110K health. Something in the next few seconds can kill him. Instead of casting a regrowth healing for 11k, you cast a healing touch healing for 50K for less mana and less than 1 second longer cast time.
Target is at 10K/110K health. Something in the next few seconds can kill him. You cast a regrowth, healing him for 11K, but he still dies because he just didn't have enough HP - see where I'm going with it? Regrowth just ain't efficient enough. For situations like that, you cast a rejuvenation and hit swiftmend, a combo that requires roughly the same mana as regrowth, but heals the target INSTANTLY for 20K hp, and another 50K or so over the next 10 seconds.