4.2 rogue change

[CrunkJuice5]

"Hemorrhage now deals 155% weapon damage (225% if a dagger is equipped), up from 110% weapon damage (160% if a dagger is equipped)."

does this mean that i could use hemo as my combo point generater instead of backstab as sub?.cuz im thinkin if thats right(which from reading the tooltip,backstab does 200 percent weapon damage.and this says hemo does 225 percent)then i might end up goin back to my rogue instead of lvlin this arms warrior i made(i dont really like the fact fury doesnt have any threat reduction.and i planned on doing more then just pvp with it)

cuz the only reason why i quit playing my rogue was because waylay really didnt make it any easier to get behind your target.and i figured,since hemo doesnt have a positional requirement i could just use that instead of backstab.i asked on arenajunkies but the first time apparently i must of forgot to put a title on my thread cuz all i saw was Rogue and nothing else.and the 2nd time apparently i must of lagged bad and i posted the same topic like 3 times

[Jubite]

You quit your rogue because of the positional requirement? Melee dancing isnt that difficult?

If the changes stay, hemo will be used as filler dps and backstab for burst, as backstab has the higher crit chance and damage. I doubt bliz will change sub back to hemo spamming, neglecting all the effort they put into making backstab viable.

[CrunkJuice5]

Melee dancing isnt that difficult?

i guess you've always had perfect latency and have never expieranced pvping as sub with bad latency.ya,i find it easier to pvp with a class that doesnt use positional requirements on there skills then ones that do

but i dont know,i gotta admit.i had waylay,but i never used crippling poison because i wasnt high enough lvl to get it,maybe that would of made it easier.but whatever.i like pvping with my warrior better then i did my rogue anyway

[Agallochh]

ever tried pvping sub with bad latency? clearly you havent

If latency is your problem you should maybe get better internet.

[Jubite]

i guess you've always had perfect latency and have never expieranced pvping as sub with bad latency.ya,i find it easier to pvp with a class that doesnt use positional requirements

Then I'd def stay away from sub rogues. ShD Ambush spam is the 'burst', and latency can screw you on that one.

Try Leatrix Latency Fix if you havent already, works wonders.

i wasnt high enough lvl to get it

x.x

[Deleted]

If latency is your problem you should maybe get better internet.

Because it's always you and not them? Oh wait.

Having 100/100 and excellent peering to the outside world doesn't help when you're facing people playing from third world countries where ants have better infrastructure than them.

To OP: Hemo will probably still be a filler generator, however, regarding the positioning, you should really try to "stay in the future", instead of chasing people to backstab. If someone's turning to the right, run to the left and stay ahead instead of trying to chase behind as that wont help you at all.

Edit: I do also get somewhat frustrated when some people (especially healers) feels like running in a way that it's not possible to backstab and at the same time, not possible to gouge. That shouldn't even be possible considering you can backstab from 180 degrees and the frontal 180 is gouge, leaving no dead zones, but hey, it can happen.

[CrunkJuice5]

x.x

ya,after i made another character i was kinda wondering if maybe i shouldnt of just waited until i got crippling poison.and used crippling poison with waylay and saw if it made it better

but ya,my latency does suck sometimes

---------- Post added 2011-06-06 at 11:42 PM ----------

If someone's turning to the right, run to the left and stay ahead instead of trying to chase behind as that wont help you at all.

i tried doing that before i decided to make a warrior and pvp with it instead of playing my rogue.sometimes it worked,but alot of times it didnt really make any difference

but i dont know,like i said.i never used crippling poison(wasnt high enough lvl for it)so maybe that was my problem.but if shd+ambush spam is the burst and latency screws you on it then maybe it would be better to just stick with my warrior instead of going back to my rogue

[Goldlink]

I PvP a lot on my rogue, and I've noticed using mostly hemo with a few backstabs is the optimal for my gear set up...
Maybe it's just because my latency isn't the greatest.. or I need to L2MeleeDance better, but my play style fits my make-up better..

[Deleted]

Because it's always you and not them? Oh wait.

Having 100/100 and excellent peering to the outside world doesn't help when you're facing people playing from third world countries where ants have better infrastructure than them.

Ants have a complicated infrastructure.

But I know what you mean. Last night I fought a Spriest that was warping all over the place. Somehow I was always out of range.

[Evolixe]

Currently on live as a subtlety specced rogue my tooltips say this:

Backstab
40 Energy
Instant
Requires Daggers
Backstab the target, causing 364% weapon damage plus 1634 to the target. Must be behind the target. Requires a dagger in the main hand. Awards 1 combo point.

Hemorrhage
29 Energy
Instant
Requires Melee Weapon
An instant strike that deals 154% weapon damage (223% if a dagger is equipped). Opens a wound that deals an additional 40% of the directstrike's damage over 24sec, and causes the target to take 30% additional damage from Bleed effects for 1 min. Awards 1 combo point.

Now add 40% of the total to that:

224:100x140= 313,6%

So no, its still lower damage.

[Deleted]

"Hemorrhage now deals 155% weapon damage (225% if a dagger is equipped), up from 110% weapon damage (160% if a dagger is equipped)."

does this mean that i could use hemo as my combo point generater instead of backstab as sub?

you're not already doing?
I mean, I do not use an ability that consumes half the energy to build combo points,
spam hemo -> recuperate
spam hemo -> S & D
Backstab -> pressure

[Deleted]

ya,after i made another character i was kinda wondering if maybe i shouldnt of just waited until i got crippling poison.and used crippling poison with waylay and saw if it made it better

but ya,my latency does suck sometimes

---------- Post added 2011-06-06 at 11:42 PM ----------



i tried doing that before i decided to make a warrior and pvp with it instead of playing my rogue.sometimes it worked,but alot of times it didnt really make any difference

but i dont know,like i said.i never used crippling poison(wasnt high enough lvl for it)so maybe that was my problem.but if shd+ambush spam is the burst and latency screws you on it then maybe it would be better to just stick with my warrior instead of going back to my rogue

You gonna hate it even more on your warrior! Roll a hunter or some Ranged.. they dont care for latency!

[Khwaj]

Currently on live as a subtlety specced rogue my tooltips say this:

Backstab
40 Energy
Instant
Requires Daggers
Backstab the target, causing 364% weapon damage plus 1634 to the target. Must be behind the target. Requires a dagger in the main hand. Awards 1 combo point.

Hemorrhage
29 Energy
Instant
Requires Melee Weapon
An instant strike that deals 154% weapon damage (223% if a dagger is equipped). Opens a wound that deals an additional 40% of the directstrike's damage over 24sec, and causes the target to take 30% additional damage from Bleed effects for 1 min. Awards 1 combo point.

Now add 40% of the total to that:

224:100x140= 313,6%

So no, its still lower damage.

ur forgetting abt the nrg requirements

---------- Post added 2011-06-08 at 12:07 AM ----------

If latency is your problem you should maybe get better internet.

only way some of us can get better latency is if blizz decides to build a server here, even though there is enough customers in aus, blizz still wont build a server here cos of a technicality they are taking advantage of so they dont need to spend more money

---------- Post added 2011-06-08 at 12:11 AM ----------

You quit your rogue because of the positional requirement? Melee dancing isnt that difficult?

If the changes stay, hemo will be used as filler dps and backstab for burst, as backstab has the higher crit chance and damage. I doubt bliz will change sub back to hemo spamming, neglecting all the effort they put into making backstab viable.

it depends also on wats going on, i ahte vsing gnomes and goblins or other small targets
specially when someone else, lets say a lock is firing stuff at it, the spell animation makes it difficult to see if u r on their back or not

tbh i find it a little more annoying, but i still find rogues really fun and will continue to try and backstab everyone

[Goldlink]

you're not already doing?
I mean, I do not use an ability that consumes half the energy to build combo points,
spam hemo -> recuperate
spam hemo -> S & D
Backstab -> pressure

Sounds like we have very similar combo building styles.. i like you

And honestly the only way i could see hemo being the "must use" move in pvp is if they made the glyph into something similar to the old sinister strike glyph... that being -- a 30% (or however much it was) chance to add a second combo point.

[Matty710]

You would have to use your weapon's dmg to get more accurate numbers (but they won't change the conclusion).
If a dagger does from 541 to 1004 dmg (which I got off Avool's Incendiary Shanker ilvl 378 dagger which should be added with 4.2)

We'll take the average: 773

Backstab would be: 2814 (364% of 773) + 1634 = 4448

Hemo would come out to: 1724 (223% of 773) + an additional 40% of that: 690 = 2414

Next we factor in that you get the additional 40% over 24 seconds. So like any other DoT you don't want to reapply it too early or you lose out on the potential damage.

So even with the damage buff I wouldn't consider this the new "main attack" at all. You're still going to spam backstab for damage so this change won't have much of an effect on your priority.

Still, with it's low energy cost you should still be using it to get your self buffs rolling. But as the fight stretches on, just tap this every ~24 seconds for a little extra damage on your target and to keep that bleed damage debuff up.



P.S. Just noticed the updated description on the front page says 225% dmg and not 223%, I just used the number posted earlier in the thread. Point still stands and I'm too lazy to fix my math over 2%.

[Deleted]

if they 'bleed' for 40% of the damadge you did will that bleed not get buffed by the hemo debuff?
so it's 40% of that so 690 but then improved by 30% so 690*1.3 = 897

numbers stil favour backstab ofc but it's a few hundred more than thought,

also the buff to the base damadge has a larger effect when you consider that if you increase the base damadge by x that inc the dot by y which is further increased by this 30%.

the dot effect ads 52% on to the instant damadge (0.4 *1.3)
52% of 225 is 117 so combined the damadge of weapon is 342%

only 20% less than a backstab but thats before the + 1634 that backstab gets.
the 1634 is what will keep backstab doing more damadge combined with the fact you can't spam hemo as the dot portion will not do it's full damadge if you do.

basicaly a buff for any fight wehre you have to hit the boss's face -> alakir/chimy and posibly some firelands stuff.

also speced into sub your talents will be randomy increasing hemo's damadge from talents throughout the tree.
if speced otehrwise you may have more + backstaby talents that further differentiate.
(i am not that familiar with all rogue talent trees feel free to disprove this)

[Evolixe]

P.S. Just noticed the updated description on the front page says 225% dmg and not 223%, I just used the number posted earlier in the thread. Point still stands and I'm too lazy to fix my math over 2%.

The 223% is live, with talents. There goes a flat out 40% on top of that coming 4.2.

So: 223:100x140.

[Deleted]

i guess you've always had perfect latency and have never expieranced pvping as sub with bad latency.ya,i find it easier to pvp with a class that doesnt use positional requirements on there skills then ones that do

but i dont know,i gotta admit.i had waylay,but i never used crippling poison because i wasnt high enough lvl to get it,maybe that would of made it easier.but whatever.i like pvping with my warrior better then i did my rogue anyway

Why did you backstab? If you are below 85 ambush will one shot?

[murilo]

We'll take the average: 773

Backstab would be: 2814 (364% of 773) + 1634 = 4448

Hemo would come out to: 1724 (223% of 773) + an additional 40% of that: 690 = 2414

So even with the damage buff I wouldn't consider this the new "main attack" at all.

You forgot that the avarage dmg is not only the weapon dmg. Its affected by atack power. A pvp geared rogue with T2 has a MH avg dmg close to 2700.

So the calculation is:

Backstab would be: 2700*3,64 + 1634 = 11462 costing 40 energy --> Damage per energy = 286

Hemo would come out to: 2700*2,25*1,4 = 8505 costing 29 energy --> Damage per energy = 293

So, without lethality and BS glyph, backstab and hemo will deal similar dmg next patch.

That means that, yes, hemo will be viable as a "main atack" in pvp next patch, in a build where u choose to take imp. recuperate instead of lethality, and another glyph instead of BS (more oriented towards survivability).

For me the positional req of Backstab makes the class very annoying to play... so its all about hemo spam next patch. =)

[murilo]

We'll take the average: 773

Backstab would be: 2814 (364% of 773) + 1634 = 4448

Hemo would come out to: 1724 (223% of 773) + an additional 40% of that: 690 = 2414

Next we factor in that you get the additional 40% over 24 seconds. So like any other DoT you don't want to reapply it too early or you lose out on the potential damage.

So even with the damage buff I wouldn't consider this the new "main attack" at all.

You forgot that the avarage weapon dmg takes ap in acount, so its a lot more than that. A rogue with t2 weps has an avg MH dmg close to 2700.

So it goes like this:

Backstab would be: 2700*3,64+1634 = 11468 costing 40 energy --> damage per energy = 287

Hemo would come out to: 2700*2,25*1,4 = 8505 costing 29 energy --> damage per energy = 293

So, its more or less the same DPE. That means that, yes, hemo will be viable in pvp, where you can choose imp recup over puncturing wounds, and another glyph instead of Backstab.

Thank god hemo is back.