1. #1

    Nefarian heroic p3 question

    Actually, my question isn't as much about neferian heroic as it is about phase 3 in general. We will start our progress on nef hc (25) next week and I want to clear something up before that.


    How do the fires in phase 3 behave? I think it's one of these options but i'm not sure which it is.

    A) They move randomly
    B) They follow the adds
    C) They follow the closest person (Mimiron style)


    On our normal mode kills sometimes the fires keep out of the way without any issue, and sometimes they seem to creep into the raid for no aparant reason. One a few rare occasions the entire raid was pretty much forced out of position to avoid fires..... obviously I want to avoid that at all costs if we can in phase 3 on heroic.

    So anyone?

  2. #2
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    Nef shoots out a fireball towards the adds which will spawn some fire that will spread in a circular motion, if the adds touch the fire they gain like 50 energy. The key to beating P3 is to make sure you move the adds everytime nef shoots a fireball so the adds only touch the fire when they are dead.

    To beat this you put adds from P1 at the outer circle, put Nef in the middle of room, the add tank stays on the side of nef at all times, so the nef tank rotates nef when the add tank moves. Between the add tank and nef the rest of the raid stands.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yilar View Post
    Nef shoots out a fireball towards the adds which will spawn some fire that will spread in a circular motion, if the adds touch the fire they gain like 50 energy. The key to beating P3 is to make sure you move the adds everytime nef shoots a fireball so the adds only touch the fire when they are dead.
    Slightly wrong there pal. They get all their energy back, not just 50.
    Anyway, to answer the OP: Keep adds at the very outer circle AT ALL TIMES and you should be fine. The third tank you're using should pick up stray adds that get revived out of your taunt range, as he's completely useless otherwise in p3.

  4. #4
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Callypso View Post
    Actually, my question isn't as much about neferian heroic as it is about phase 3 in general. We will start our progress on nef hc (25) next week and I want to clear something up before that.


    How do the fires in phase 3 behave? I think it's one of these options but i'm not sure which it is.

    A) They move randomly
    B) They follow the adds
    C) They follow the closest person (Mimiron style)


    On our normal mode kills sometimes the fires keep out of the way without any issue, and sometimes they seem to creep into the raid for no aparant reason. One a few rare occasions the entire raid was pretty much forced out of position to avoid fires..... obviously I want to avoid that at all costs if we can in phase 3 on heroic.

    So anyone?
    Honestly, I've killed Nef as the Kite tank and all told between attempts I've probably spent several hours in just that phase alone - 7 min per phase... many attempts, normal and heroic, it adds up. And after all that time I still can't tell you exactly how the fires move, sometimes it seems to me like they spread in a circle, other times they seem to expand 10 yards in one direction and only 1 yard in another, it really is quite a pain. All I can tell you is that they definitely don't seem to act exactly like the Mimiron fires, I have seen them move in a direction that is neither facing the boss, nor any adds, nor any player. I find it safest to just assume that they will spread in a semi-random fashion in all directions and just be ready for a wost case scenario at all times.

    I kind of want to say that they have a tendency to spread towards the middle of the room or towards the kite tank more often than not, however I have no proof to back this up.

  5. #5
    Deleted
    I THINK they follow the adds, or it's aggro based wich I doubt but, apparently Sinestra cutters are also based on aggro (Mirror Images screwing it up for example).

    Anyhoo, I think they follow adds, but my mind is telling me it's just random, random target and random movement.

  6. #6
    I'm quite sure it's just random as I've killed it on heroic and often fire will come in the middle where we're fighting nef. Unfortunately I don't have any input as to how the fire works on the add tank.

    @ sinestra. The cutters are actually not based on agro but using a agro dropping ability as they spawn (mirror images, fade, fient, feign death, etc) will cause the orbs to not link to the perosn intended and just float aimlessly and 9/10 times, wipe your raid.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffari View Post
    I'm quite sure it's just random as I've killed it on heroic and often fire will come in the middle where we're fighting nef. Unfortunately I don't have any input as to how the fire works on the add tank.

    @ sinestra. The cutters are actually not based on agro but using a agro dropping ability as they spawn (mirror images, fade, fient, feign death, etc) will cause the orbs to not link to the perosn intended and just float aimlessly and 9/10 times, wipe your raid.
    Ah okay, well I just repeated what I read in some other thread few days back ,geuss it's the same thing though.

    Aggro DROPPING abilities fucking it up, meaning that the orbs do have some sort of aggro on their targets? W/e I'm just speculating and going off-topic here

  8. #8
    Sorry to hijack thread but I have related question - my guild is working on this 10m and our best attempt was 3% last night because healers went oom. We are consistently having the same problem with a couple of the adds getting reset (but not all) so the add tank is nearly dying at all times. The healer and tank are claiming that because of the fact that their swing timers are "off" usually when they all drop for the first time they often will not drop in the "exact" same spot thus causing their respawns to be staggered, causing a chain reaction to the point that their timers are so off to the point that it becomes difficult to pick them all back up again because they are all despawning at different times. My solution for them (from my exp tanking normal) was when they don't all spawn at the same time, just drag them all through the flame once they are all up so set their counters identical. However, they claim this is impossible because of the extra 5-10 seconds it adds will kill the tank since during those 10 seconds the damage they are doing is humongous and nearly unhealable.

    Anyone have any ideas about this? I can't quite pin what exactly is going wrong with the add tank but it seems that most of our p3 wipes is from that tank dying for one reason or another, and I am guessing its because they are not all getting reset properly, but i really don't know.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleotaurus View Post
    Sorry to hijack thread but I have related question - my guild is working on this 10m and our best attempt was 3% last night because healers went oom. We are consistently having the same problem with a couple of the adds getting reset (but not all) so the add tank is nearly dying at all times. The healer and tank are claiming that because of the fact that their swing timers are "off" usually when they all drop for the first time they often will not drop in the "exact" same spot thus causing their respawns to be staggered, causing a chain reaction to the point that their timers are so off to the point that it becomes difficult to pick them all back up again because they are all despawning at different times. My solution for them (from my exp tanking normal) was when they don't all spawn at the same time, just drag them all through the flame once they are all up so set their counters identical. However, they claim this is impossible because of the extra 5-10 seconds it adds will kill the tank since during those 10 seconds the damage they are doing is humongous and nearly unhealable.

    Anyone have any ideas about this? I can't quite pin what exactly is going wrong with the add tank but it seems that most of our p3 wipes is from that tank dying for one reason or another, and I am guessing its because they are not all getting reset properly, but i really don't know.
    1) Your healers need to be really careful not to go balls to the wall with healing the raid after a crackle. With a resto druid and holy priest on the raid we each stick a HoT on each member of the raid until they are healed to full. The Paladin that is healing the add kiter then can be assisted by the other two healer and focus solely on the add tank.

    2) The best way to deal with the adds that are not stacked up at the beginning is just to pick up the first set of adds and stand by whatever add hasn't been activated yet and wait for nef to fire a shadowball at you. The Shadowball is always targeted at one of the skeleton adds (dead or alive). Once all of them have been activated, it shouldn't be a problem. The reality is though that your P1 add tank should be able to stack all of the adds up so closely that this is not an issue. We use a Holy priest with guardian spirit to heal a frost DK that uses hungering cold paired with a mage's frost nova and ring of frost in P1.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrelicious View Post
    1) Your healers need to be really careful not to go balls to the wall with healing the raid after a crackle. With a resto druid and holy priest on the raid we each stick a HoT on each member of the raid until they are healed to full. The Paladin that is healing the add kiter then can be assisted by the other two healer and focus solely on the add tank.

    2) The best way to deal with the adds that are not stacked up at the beginning is just to pick up the first set of adds and stand by whatever add hasn't been activated yet and wait for nef to fire a shadowball at you. The Shadowball is always targeted at one of the skeleton adds (dead or alive). Once all of them have been activated, it shouldn't be a problem. The reality is though that your P1 add tank should be able to stack all of the adds up so closely that this is not an issue. We use a Holy priest with guardian spirit to heal a frost DK that uses hungering cold paired with a mage's frost nova and ring of frost in P1.
    "once all of them have been activated it shouldn't be a problem" - the problem with this is when they aren't all activated at the same time - they start dropping staggered, causing them to be even more staggered as they respawn, and then fall again, causing a chain reaction which puts all of the adds on different timers, making the kiting without anything getting hit "extremely" difficult. Generally the adds require something a bit "stronger" than a taunt when they respawn - otherwise they just run back into the raid after the 3 second duration - which isn't practical for tanks whos ranged threat options are limited. You can hit at most one or two with good ranged threat, and when they all start dropping at different times it makes it very hard to keep the newly spawned adds under control while continuing to make sure to avoid the old adds getting hit by the shadowblaze.

    My solution was just when they start dropping at different times to wait until they all back up, then drag them all through the fire so they are all on the same timer and then continue - though they claim this won't work. Is there another solution, or does the kite tank just need to "l2play"

  11. #11
    @ Cleaotaurus: It works in theory, but it all depends on your healers if they will be able to heal through the extra damage. Cooldowns might sort that out though.

    Still, there's no reason NOT to have them all reactivated in at the same time. It's fairly trivial to stack them all up in phase 1, so in phase 3 the only way you get 'staggered' add deaths is if the tanking fails somehow.

    @ everyone else, thanks for the replies. I guess we'll just park the adds as far away from the raid as we can keep them.

  12. #12
    Deleted
    Hello,

    We are having issue also in our guild in 10man normal, actually we are passing nef to 75% in P1, no crackle in P2, and we usually die by lack of mana of our healer in P3. I think to much damage on the kite tank and difficulties to top up everyone with a 2tank 3heal setup. We have often to stop dps to have everyone top up...

    I was wondering what is the problem of using a 4heal / 2 tank setup?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mache View Post
    Hello,

    We are having issue also in our guild in 10man normal, actually we are passing nef to 75% in P1, no crackle in P2, and we usually die by lack of mana of our healer in P3. I think to much damage on the kite tank and difficulties to top up everyone with a 2tank 3heal setup. We have often to stop dps to have everyone top up...

    I was wondering what is the problem of using a 4heal / 2 tank setup?
    Sounds like the add tank needs more practice or learn how to do it properly. I healed the add tank on my alt with 349 ilvl and finished on like 50% mana (he didn't take much damage at all).

  14. #14
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by cleotaurus View Post
    My solution was just when they start dropping at different times to wait until they all back up, then drag them all through the fire so they are all on the same timer and then continue - though they claim this won't work. Is there another solution, or does the kite tank just need to "l2play"
    That solution is exactly what I did to solve this problem for our heroic kill. I didn't exactly drag them through a fire, I just let the fire that activates the 5th and final add reset the stacks of the other 4 so as to synchronize their despawn timers. Ideally you don't want to have to do this, but sometimes their pathfinding and swing timers will force your hand, you really just have to judge it based on the situations.

    For instance, if 4 adds are up for a long time (~15+ seconds) and then the 5th add activates, you don't want to reset the stacks on the previous 4 just to synchronize the 5th, the damage increase will be huge. On the other hand if we're talking about just resetting the stacks of 1 add that only recently spawned, the damage increase will be negligable. So your tank has to judge it based off how much will resetting their stacks increase damage intake and how many CDs can he spare to counter it.

  15. #15
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharissa View Post
    Sounds like the add tank needs more practice or learn how to do it properly. I healed the add tank on my alt with 349 ilvl and finished on like 50% mana (he didn't take much damage at all).
    You do know that he is talking about Heroic Nef right?

  16. #16
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Youwow View Post
    You do know that he is talking about Heroic Nef right?
    No he isn't? Go back and read what he replied to.

  17. #17
    I'm also the adds tank on H Nef and what I do when an add falls behind is that I simply let my group know that I don't have one of the adds. Then the Frost DK keeps an eye on him and if he gets reanimated he will taunt it and bring it next to me. The only problem is Nef will target the closest add to throw his fireball at so going through the middle is a no no.

    Sometimes Nef will simply not reanimate the add so doN't wait for it imo.

    He's been on farm for more than two months so I guess it isn't such a bad strategy Sometimes you just don't want to risk resetting the stacks on an add that is at 10+

    It used to be a Ret Pally doing it and I guess it could work also work with a hunter.
    Last edited by Stevanized; 2011-06-08 at 01:52 PM.

  18. #18
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevanized View Post
    The only problem is Nef will target the closest add to throw his fireball at so going through the middle is a no no.
    Does he? I thought it was random which add he picked.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by RavenGage View Post
    Does he? I thought it was random which add he picked.
    it targets a random add
    N

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