Guild Wars 2: Endgame discussion

[Deleted]

Hey guys,

I realize there's The one thread about GW2 but it's awfully long and unfocused: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...The-One-Thread

I wanted to create this thread to shed more light on Guild Wars 2 endgame concepts as that is an aspect I'm still a little concerned about.


To explain, since playing MMOs I've become accustomed to them being almost like a hobby. E.g. I expect to log in at least for an hour every day and have something to work on or some goal to achieve. I'm not much of an altoholic so having multiple characters isn't a huge attraction to me.

Wow achieves this by having PvP in two Tiers BGs and Arena/RBGs and PvE in two Tiers (Dungeons and Raids).

Raids especially are something that keeps players playing for month on end, often being the only content for many raiders. Raiding is also the basis for a lot of discussion in the WoW community with a lot of resources dealing with the perfection of each class and the best execution of various fights.


Now so far I know that Guild Wars 2 will have cross realm BGs and probably feature arena-style competitive PvP as well. They also have and epic story and including various dungeons on various difficulties.

However, my worry is that all that won't be enough to keep me interested in Guild Wars 2 for a period longer than 3-4 months. I can see myself enjoying PvP quite a bit, both competitive and cross realm, but ultimately it's not enough to keep me logging in each day. I expect to reach endgame within a months and then progress through the various dungeon difficulties, but based on past experienced, dungeons can't be all that hard.

Then again, since GW2 doesn't have a monthly sub, maybe it's not ment to be a hobby. Maybe I should get used to the idea that GW 2 will only have limited character progression once on max. level and that after a few week, I'll have little more reason to log in. From a certain PoV this would be perfectly acceptable but I couldn't help but feel lightly disappointed. After all, if GW2 doesn't fill the void left by other MMOs, then maybe I'll start looking into others and abandon the game completely.

Maybe some of you experts and GW1 veterans can fill me in on ArenaNets endgame concepts and maybe what kept you playing GW1 for as long as you did?


TL;DR: How does ArenaNet plan on keeping me playing after roughly 3 months of Guild Wars 2?


Guild Wars 2 fans are debating the same subject here: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/...on-t15527.html

[Valeron]

I found a nice little editorial piece about endgame. I think it fits here as I agree with what the writer says.

The Absurdity of the Endgame

Now for GW2 in specific, it's not designed to keep you playing like the skinner box mmos out there. What is nice is that you can stop playing for a month or two and not worry about falling behind other players.

[mikepic]

Baaah! I read your entire post and really like the direction your going with this. Was really looking forward to some good feedback to find there are no replies.

Sorry I have nothing to add to this but I'll be following this thread b/c most of what you've said are similar thoughts/concerns I have.

Bump

[Archeye]

This is actually a point I have brought up in previous conversations with a buddy of mine. From what I have been able to gather is GW2 will offer many of the options WoW does when it comes to achievements / cosmetics. There will be pets and titles to collect, I have also heard that we will be able to discover new gear designs which we can use at any point in the game.

While this doesn't seem too enticing or much of a long lasting appeal, it is sadly all I have been able to discover of the game in regards to end game thus far.

[Blznsmri]

Although this has been discussed at least 5 times in the primary thread, the GW2 end game starts at level 1. Guild Wars 2 is more about the Journey (dynamic events, exploring, personal story and such) as opposed to the Destination (level 80). There will be 8 dungeons (with story and exploration modes) starting out, thousands of dynamic events (which go on whether or not players are involved) a fully personal story (you're actually the hero, not just a nameless orc or human warrior). And given A-Nets "patch" history there will probably a minor content patch every other month or so, and a major content release (perhaps, another campaign or expansion) every 6 months.

Guild Wars 1 "endgame" took place in higher level areas (monsters were level 20+) and was comprised of story-based missions and elite areas (Fissure of Woe, Underworld, Sorrows Furnace, Factions released The Deep and Urgoz's Warren).

A-Net is planning on having enough enjoyable content throughout the entirety of the game, as opposed to focusing on blowing through levels to get into the dungeon to get gear for the heroic dungeon, to get gear for the raid, to get gear for the heroic raid to get gear for the next tier, and so on.

[Deleted]

I found a nice little editorial piece about endgame. I think it fits here as I agree with what the writer says.

The Absurdity of the Endgame

Now for GW2 in specific, it's not designed to keep you playing like the skinner box mmos out there. What is nice is that you can stop playing for a month or two and not worry about falling behind other players.

It's a nice article but doesn't really help me much.

1. While the auther is right, not many people play mutiple MMOs. So even if it is the same everywhere, it doesn't need to be a big deal (after all a lot of video games are very similar).

2. I agree that sandbox vs. themepark is a classic conflict, but so far GW2 seems to have very few sandbox or themepark elements I know of. I'd love GW2 to have a sandbox type endgame, I just don't see it based on what I know at the moment.

Although this has been discussed at least 5 times in the primary thread, the GW2 end game starts at level 1. Guild Wars 2 is more about the Journey (dynamic events, exploring, personal story and such) as opposed to the Destination (level 80). There will be 8 dungeons (with story and exploration modes) starting out, thousands of dynamic events (which go on whether or not players are involved) a fully personal story (you're actually the hero, not just a nameless orc or human warrior).

No offence but that just sounds like some marketing BS. Every MMO is about the journey and GW2 isn't in anyway more special that way than any other MMO.

I'm sure I'll enjoy leveing my toon through the various parts of the world, experiencing my epic story etc. etc. My point is though, that I'll be doing this ONCE.

Endgame is essentially some sort of grind or content I'll have to repeat multiple times in order to complete. I'm not asking for massive raid-dungeons or anything. But I do need something that will keep my guild and myself occupied for a while. Do we have stuff to compete over with other guilds, do we have big challenges we need to tackle as a guild over multiple weeks etc. etc.

EVE Online has good endgame even without massive content. It's all about the player politics. I'd be content if GW2 could achive this. But it still requires certain contestable content to be created.

[Valeron]

2. I agree that sandbox vs. themepark is a classic conflict, but so far GW2 seems to have very few sandbox or themepark elements I know of. I'd love GW2 to have a sandbox type endgame, I just don't see it based on what I know at the moment.

Well in a way the world itself is a bit of a sandbox as you have to explore and find out what events are out there. There is no guidance (other than the scout system). But as the poster above you said, the end game is the whole game. One of ArenaNet's mission statement, if you will, was that the game would never change (unlike a lot of the mmos now where your focus completely changes at max level).

Going along with this, one of my criticisms of GW2 was that they actually have levels. I think it should be leveless.

[Deleted]

The problem is that people think of GW2 as any other MMO out there.

[xile]

The current idea of raiding is pathetically lame. You run around chasing a goal like gear, i'd kill one of these days for a progressive story, where the goal is to just play the dam game, progress your story at a reasonable rate instead of all this lame raiding, that requires you to put forth 10+ hours a week to kill something have a chance at gear then come back next week and do the same thing. I'd rather a game come out with monthly updates on ACTUAL character progression compared to the excuse that is raiding and quests. Call me crazy but im missing the RPG element in MMORPG, i don't remember the last time i read the text from any npc out of want in the past 4 years.

[Deleted]

i just love the whole concept of this game and i really wish people with stop saying oh whats the point its like wow, end game is gonna be boring, pvp gonna be shit... its not wow and its not trying to be wow end of..

I cant wait to develop my own character to the way i want it developing a story about what I have done who I have frighted and what I have achieved. This for me is much better as others have said than going to a raid 2 - 4x a week and killing the same old shit over and over for that bit of loot you might never get or get first time.

I also love the fact if you die its probably your fault for not healing yourself or dodging an attack, not my fault as in wow i play a healer and a tank and ofc get all the blame 99% of the time. Guildwars will allow me to play how i like and not get flamed at for others stupid mistakes. If your stupid in this game its your fault no one else's yours.. its going to have a much higher skill cap than wow so hopefully less 13 year old kids screeching over vent or QQing about loot because they are to stupid to realise its a game and games are for fun its not real and never will be.. its a game its for fun!!

[Valeron]

No offence but that just sounds like some marketing BS. Every MMO is about the journey and GW2 isn't in anyway more special that way than any other MMO. I'm sure I'll enjoy leveing my toon through the various parts of the world, experiencing my epic story etc. etc. My point is though, that I'll be doing this ONCE. Endgame is essentially some sort of grind or content I'll have to repeat multiple times in order to complete. I'm not asking for massive raid-dungeons or anything. But I do need something that will keep my guild and myself occupied for a while. Do we have stuff to compete over with other guilds, do we have big challenges we need to tackle as a guild over multiple weeks etc. etc.

If you want raids then I'm afraid you are looking at the wrong game.

EVE Online has good endgame even without massive content. It's all about the player politics. I'd be content if GW2 could achive this. But it still requires certain contestable content to be created.

WvWvW Mists might serve your needs. Combines RvR action similar to that of DAoC with RTS elements for a huge conquerable area (4 connected zones that are all contestable). The servers will change every 1 to 2 weeks so you aren't always playing the same opponents.

[Deleted]

The problem is that people think of GW2 as any other MMO out there.

Well then how is it hugely different? I'e read just about all the GW2 info I could get my hand on but I think some people overestimate GW2s uniqueness.

Despite the fanboys in this thread I still haven't gotten a real answer to my original question.


Spare me the talk about the "character story" etc because that's essentially just like WoWs questing.

What am I going to be doing at level cap? (Assuming I've finished my "story" at that point). Is that such an unreasonable question to ask?

[Deleted]

The same way as they did in GW - while the gameplay in the two games are completely different, the concept is the same - there will be no real endgame, it will be a game mostly for completist and people that like to re-roll to play a different story and ofc there will be new content to buy at regular intervals.

GW2 will not be for everyone.

I only played GW1 very briefly myself but it did/does have a huge PvP meta-game going on with tournaments and competitions. That's also a form of endgame.

[Valeron]

What am I going to be doing at level cap? (Assuming I've finished my "story" at that point). Is that such an unreasonable question to ask?

We just told you. Maybe it's not something you are content with but there it is.

[ManiaCCC]

Well then how is it hugely different? I'e read just about all the GW2 info I could get my hand on but I think some people overestimate GW2s uniqueness.

Despite the fanboys in this thread I still haven't gotten a real answer to my original question.


Spare me the talk about the "character story" etc because that's essentially just like WoWs questing.

What am I going to be doing at level cap? (Assuming I've finished my "story" at that point). Is that such an unreasonable question to ask?

Don't insult people..they are telling you truth.. You didn't understand whole concept of GW2 endgame .. and it's not their fault or fault of the game.. It's different from WoW and we know it.

You like WoW concept of endgame..Okey, I understand.. but for me.. WoW endgame was the main reason why I stopped playing. GW2 is more open.. you can just enjoy what you want.. there is no classic raiding model.... so deal with it.. if this is a set back for you ..it's okey..for me it's main selling point of the game.

[jtgizmo]

Im going to paste what I wrote in the other thread:

The problem with this kind of view is that you are approaching the game with traditional mmmo (e.g. WoW) mindset for the game. I did that when I first started getting into GW2. What you should actually do, is change your perception of how this mmo works. The hardest part for me was to accept the fact that in GW2 the levels are just arbitrary figures that in reality do not matter per say (a little of course). What matters is the open world where you explore and participate, why else would they make all levels require same amount of time to finish? Also if you are willing to accept this new concept, then you realise there are plenty of dungeons, at lower levels as well, and what happens when you go to those dungeons - you will be downscaled (or vise versa, you can go to higher area and will be upscaled). What does this mean? It means this game will not have a defined end target as you would expect in traditional MMO's (e.g. wow). You are meant to explore and enjoy and play in the world and if you enter into higher area, you will be scaled up or down depending how it is. What will be your Goal as such is your personal story and it can change so much - depending on your choices, giving you replayability option even further.

I think it is why they emphesize the replayability rather than endgame, cause the concept is different, they do not utilize holy trinity and neither are they proposing 'endgame' content per say, I mean that there still will be quite a bit at the highest levels.

So the challenge for you really is to try to change the way you think about traditional MMO. It is hard, I know I was struggeling and I was actually quite against it at first. But the more i think, the better it gets.

The possibility this allows are far far greater than e.g. WoW has to offer, one of the biggest is of course, you do not have to be bored after you have finished the content of the new expansion just because you are too high for other areas and events in those places.

Hope this helps.

Stop looking at the GW2 as if the last level is the ultimate goal of achievements. Its about immersive world where you have activities and dungeons at all levels. Thus once you are at highest level you will not be hindered or discouraged to go to lower area places because it might be too easy (it wont, you will be downscaled)

[Deleted]

If you want raids then I'm afraid you are looking at the wrong game.



WvWvW Mists might serve your needs. Combines RvR action similar to that of DAoC with RTS elements for a huge conquerable area (4 connected zones that are all contestable). The servers will change every 1 to 2 weeks so you aren't always playing the same opponents.

I never said I wanted raids. Any form of social meta-game will keep me hooked. But it does need to be team focused and require some sort of time-input.

Another way of asking would be how will a high-end gamer set him/herself apart from the rest? Through which content and which rewards?

[Valeron]

Another way of asking would be how will a high-end gamer set him/herself apart from the rest? Through which content and which rewards?

Competitive PVP would be the best bet. Not sure what the rewards would be but I'm sure some sort of titles would be one of them. They also want to make it an esport so there will be tournaments with cash prizes and such (like in the first game).

For something to grind on, I imagine there will be tons of different titles to grind towards, unique looking armor skins and weapons to search for, basically a similar deal as GW was when all of the mission content was finished.

[ManiaCCC]

I never said I wanted raids. Any form of social meta-game will keep me hooked. But it does need to be team focused and require some sort of time-input.

Another way of asking would be how will a high-end gamer set him/herself apart from the rest? Through which content and which rewards?

So what you want? Whole game is build around socializing... they will offer you huge worlds, tons of events, dynamic story, PvP etc..and as high level character you will just unlock every piece of content. You can do any content you want...

[Deleted]

Don't insult people..they are telling you truth.. You didn't understand whole concept of GW2 endgame .. and it's not their fault or fault of the game.. It's different from WoW and we know it.

You like WoW concept of endgame..Okey, I understand.. but for me.. WoW endgame was the main reason why I stopped playing. GW2 is more open.. you can just enjoy what you want.. there is no classic raiding model.... so deal with it.. if this is a set back for you ..it's okey..for me it's main selling point of the game.

Again, you're dancing around the actual question without actually answering it.

And where did I say I lked WoWs endgame?

Raiding, Arenas, Politics, RvR etc. are all different forms of endgame. All appeal to me in different ways. I just want to know what I'll be doing at level cap in GW2. Why does nobody simply answer that question instead of questioning my intelligence?

So far all I know is that at level cap I can:

1. Revisit dungeons on higher difficulties (assuming better rewards)
2. Participate in some form of competitive, group-based PvP (much like GW1)
3. Persistent, cross-realm Battlegorunds (hopefully much like RvR in DAoC).

To me this sounds a lot like:

1. Heroic Dungeons (possibly with more difficulties)
2. Arena PvP (probably with larger groups though)
3. Persistent Alterac Valley against other servers (probably a lot larger)