Guild Wars 2: Endgame discussion

[ManiaCCC]

Again, you're dancing around the actual question without actually answering it.

And where did I say I lked WoWs endgame?

Raiding, Arenas, Politics, RvR etc. are all different forms of endgame. All appeal to me in different ways. I just want to know what I'll be doing at level cap in GW2. Why does nobody simply answer that question instead of questioning my intelligence?

So far all I know is that at level cap I can:

1. Revisit dungeons on higher difficulties (assuming better rewards)
2. Participate in some form of competitive, group-based PvP (much like GW1)
3. Persistent, cross-realm Battlegorunds (hopefully much like RvR in DAoC).

To me this sounds a lot like:

1. Heroic Dungeons (possibly with more difficulties)
2. Arena PvP (probably with larger groups though)
3. Persistent Alterac Valley against other servers (probably a lot larger)

So..basically ..end-game in GW2 is like in wow but main goal is not get better gear (stats wise) .. that's the whole story.

[jtgizmo]

Again, you're dancing around the actual question without actually answering it.

And where did I say I lked WoWs endgame?

Raiding, Arenas, Politics, RvR etc. are all different forms of endgame. All appeal to me in different ways. I just want to know what I'll be doing at level cap in GW2. Why does nobody simply answer that question instead of questioning my intelligence?

So far all I know is that at level cap I can:

1. Revisit dungeons on higher difficulties (assuming better rewards)
2. Participate in some form of competitive, group-based PvP (much like GW1)
3. Persistent, cross-realm Battlegorunds (hopefully much like RvR in DAoC).

To me this sounds a lot like:

1. Heroic Dungeons (possibly with more difficulties)
2. Arena PvP (probably with larger groups though)
3. Persistent Alterac Valley against other servers (probably a lot larger)

Im slightly lost at what is your worry? GW2 is not selling itself with endgame style like traditional mmo's (like wow). so stop trying to make an issue out of it. It is as it is, this gives tons more of replayability than wow currently offers.

Game will have achievements system and pet system and gathering system and such. You need to understand that the goal of GW is not to have end game raiding (dungeons), but just raiding across entire world at all levels.

[Deleted]

Here's a Preview of GW2 done back in April by the German PC-Mag "Gamestar": http://www.gamestar.de/index.cfm?pid...h=guild+wars+2

Now since it's in German most people might not be able to understand it, but fundamentally the reviewer says that despite ArenaNets promises, Guild Wars 2 isn't THAT different from conventional MMOs.

The personal story is essentially a massive quest chain, triggered by people which...guess what...exclamation marks. Yes it takes you to dungeons on a regular basis and there are cut-scenes, but is it really that different from WoW questing in Cataclysm?

Cataclysm quests also make the player the hero, solving various heroic quests, facing dangerous opponents and saving the world in various ways. Cataclysms quests also take us to dungeons on a regular basis (granted, without cut-scenes most of the time) and all are imbedded into local lore.

Just because ArenaNet class it "a personal story", it doesn't necessarily make it any more personal than WoW quests.


I really don't want to be bashing GW2 and I love some of the game-play changes they are undertaking for the genre, but I feel too many people here have rose-tinted googles when it comes to evaluating just how "original and new" GW2 is really going to be.

[jtgizmo]

Here's a Preview of GW2 done back in April by the German PC-Mag "Gamestar": http://www.gamestar.de/index.cfm?pid...h=guild+wars+2

Now since it's in German most people might not be able to understand it, but fundamentally the reviewer says that despite ArenaNets promises, Guild Wars 2 isn't THAT different from conventional MMOs.

The personal story is essentially a massive quest chain, triggered by people which...guess what...exclamation marks. Yes it takes you to dungeons on a regular basis and there are cut-scenes, but is it really that different from WoW questing in Cataclysm?

Cataclysm quests also make the player the hero, solving various heroic quests, facing dangerous opponents and saving the world in various ways. Cataclysms quests also take us to dungeons on a regular basis (granted, without cut-scenes most of the time) and all are imbedded into local lore.

Just because ArenaNet class it "a personal story", it doesn't necessarily make it any more personal than WoW quests.


I really don't want to be bashing GW2 and I love some of the game-play changes they are undertaking for the genre, but I feel too many people here have rose-tinted googles when it comes to evaluating just how "original and new" GW2 is really going to be.

I am pretty sure majority are aware of that, and?

[Valeron]

Yes the personal story is very much like quests from other mmos. That is in addition to the dynamic events in the world though. I believe you can forgo almost all of your personal story, if you wish, and just explore the world and level through those events.

Now, what does that have do with your original question? Haven't we answered that already? I'm at a loss here on what you want to know. It seems like you are searching for an answer that will never come because the game doesn't have it.

[Deleted]

Im slightly lost at what is your worry? GW2 is not selling itself with endgame style like traditional mmo's (like wow). so stop trying to make an issue out of it. It is as it is, this gives tons more of replayability than wow currently offers.

Well, considering I made this thread explicitly to discuss GW2s endgame, that's a bid of an odd statement to make. And aside from leveling, I still don't see this vast level of replayability you speak of. That is why I made this thread, in case I was missing something.

Game will have achievements system and pet system and gathering system and such. You need to understand that the goal of GW is not to have end game raiding (dungeons), but just raiding across entire world at all levels.

If the world-events are challenging enough and designed in a way to promote real group play and long-term progression, then yes, that is a viable form of endgame for me (and my guild). However, plenty of people here claim GW2 won't have raids so it's slightly contradictory. From what I've seen in terms of GW2s dynamic events is that they're more like public quests (in WAR), rather than actual raid-content. But that might just have been due to the content they were showing.


Edit: Just found a thread on GW2Guru answering my questions: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/...on-t15527.html

[Trollsbane]

I agree with you, Crowe, on the personal story. It's really at heart no different from other games quests. It's probably much more akin to TOR's class stories than to Cata quests, but the peaches are from the same tree.

As far as origional and new, the combat system and the way dynamic events work are the 2 big origional concepts I see. Everything else can be easily related to past games. Even those 2 have glaring simularities to other games, but it will be the way that they are presented that will embody them as different, even if they fundamentally are not different at all.

For end game (max level), I think your list you made is the whole of it. Dungeons, pvp, and world roaming. And hopefully pursuing your personal story further. But you're asking for more info where there isn't any more to be had, imo.

[jtgizmo]

Well, considering I made this thread explicitly to discuss GW2s endgame, that's a bid of an odd statement to make. And aside from leveling, I still don't see this vast level of replayability you speak of. That is why I made this thread, in case I was missing something.



If the world-events are challenging enough and designed in a way to promote real group play and long-term progression, then yes, that is a viable form of endgame for me (and my guild). However, plenty of people here claim GW2 won't have raids so it's slightly contradictory. From what I've seen in terms of GW2s dynamic events is that they're more like public quests (in WAR), rather than actual raid-content. But that might just have been due to the content they were showing.

the problem is you made a thread with concept in mind that does not apply to GW2, that is why I said it.

as for replayability. Lets take wow, where is the majority of the people concentrated atm, when you are not leveling an character. In end game zone, like firelands (orwhatever is latest atm, i havent played wow for 2 years now) Once you clear all the dungeons, you have nothing else to play with, you cannot really go back to lower areas and play there, cause there is no challange, eventhough some of the bosses are quite awesome (granted the move to introduce Heroic Dead Mines was good, but still) - lets take Outlands - it is absolute empty and deserted, Isle of Q, same, only time you will see anyone there is when someone is leveling. The gear you would get from there once rushing through would be completely useless to you stat wise.

But If you take GW, you can go anywhere in the world and have a challenge, there will be high end dungeons that are meant to be played at high level , there will be high end world events (like shatterer) and there will be mid level, you can always go back to any area and enjoy it with your friends and have challange. Collect your achievements or any gear you like, cause if you like certain look of the gear you can just apply the look to your highest gear stats if you want etc etc.

Again, the concept goal you had with this thread does not apply to GW2 because you are approaching to it from the wrong angle

---------- Post added 2011-06-08 at 03:28 AM ----------

I agree with you, Crowe, on the personal story. It's really at heart no different from other games quests. It's probably much more akin to TOR's class stories than to Cata quests, but the peaches are from the same tree.

As far as origional and new, the combat system and the way dynamic events work are the 2 big origional concepts I see. Everything else can be easily related to past games. Even those 2 have glaring simularities to other games, but it will be the way that they are presented that will embody them as different, even if they fundamentally are not different at all.

I agree with that, it is nothing radical, but it is different approach

For end game (max level), I think your list you made is the whole of it. Dungeons, pvp, and world roaming. And hopefully pursuing your personal story further. But you're asking for more info where there isn't any more to be had, imo.

I wouldnt put final dot on this yet, because we still have not seen to the full extend what they have in store. We have not seen anything about achievements, gathering, guild achievements and such.

So untill we have actually been confirmed this is what you get, we should see what will happen?

[Underskilled]

I have this same worry OP. GW2 looks like an incredibly entertaining game, but what does it have to keep me playing, keep me enjoying it for more than a month? Collect mounts, or pets? May as well stick with WoW. Large-scale PvP sounds great, but what if I don't want to PvP? Dungeons sound good, but if getting the absolute best gear takes a very, very short time, why bother continuing to do the dungeons? Collect cool looking armor sets? And when I have the set I like?

I'd like to buy into the "Persistently changing world" but I just don't believe that. Enemies try to take over town, you push enemies back. A few hours later enemies try to take over town, you push enemies back again. I am greatly hoping that is not their idea of a persistent world.

We don't know enough about the game to even be having this argument.

All you need to know is there endgame is not like WoWs. Think Rpg when it comes to there endgame rather then a Job like Wows.

That just sounds awful. Start story, continue story, finish story, side-quests, done.

I was very excited about GW2, but now I don't even know anymore. Unless they release something that gives us a reason to do more than once, or log on more than once for, or enjoy more than once, GW2 may not last.

[jtgizmo]

we will see, we will see - gw2 is not competing with wow anyway, u can have both, you may like it you may not, only way to find out is to try it out, but as I said, it is hard to break the concept of traditional mmo way of thinking, once you just get over it and accept it, you might actually see it in completely different light.

Lets all hope it will be a pleasant surprise.

[Deleted]

I have this same worry OP. GW2 looks like an incredibly entertaining game, but what does it have to keep me playing, keep me enjoying it for more than a month? Collect mounts, or pets? May as well stick with WoW. Large-scale PvP sounds great, but what if I don't want to PvP? Dungeons sound good, but if getting the absolute best gear takes a very, very short time, why bother continuing to do the dungeons? Collect cool looking armor sets? And when I have the set I like?

Getting maxed stat items in GW1 was easy and you could trade weapons and materials for armors with others players. It looks like GW2 is going to continue this philosophy and you can get weapons and armors by doing different activities end game even if you are bad player.

I suppose GW2 will have some form challenge mission/dungeon ladder like was in GW1 http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...er/default.php where you can compete for best time/scores. Personally I plan to do lot of PvP with friends at level cap and it doesn't bother me if some bad players have equally stats on their gear.

[Grable]

Screw raiding, seriously. It is a lame excuse of a goal. I don't know why the MMO world has sealed into their heads that endgame should be gearing your character up. FUCK that.
I'd kill for an MMO that can provide a different goal for a change.
Perhaps world domination? A good reason to PvP, like taking over land to gain certain benefits (like tax money muahah)? Or some other guild goals rather than gearing up - resource nodes, guild towns, guild tournaments, whatever... the options are endless. Perhaps even make it so that players/guild have major impacts on the world.
Devs just need to stop copying WoW-like game systems and try to create something unique for a change.
They need to give endgame some meaning. Make people WANT to endgame, not just endgame because it's the only way to keep playing the game.

I will just quote this man:

Anyway, if you don't already see where I'm going with this, allow me to spell it out: the only meaningful MMORPG "endgame" -- i.e., something novel to do after the progression process is over -- is that of the sandbox.

[noahjam326]

I'll say what I've been saying since as long as I can remember. GW2 is not about endgame progression. It's designed as a game that you just jump into and play. That's ArenaNet's goal. It's not trying to compete with the endgame of WoW, so it's not going to develop that sort of content. This is ArenaNet's biggest strength, they've designed a game that can be easily picked up, and put down whenever the user feels like. I'm not going to be playing GW2 alone, I'm going to play it alongside other games. I play games like WoW and SWTOR because I like raiding and endgame progression. On Sunday evening, if I don't feel like raiding, then I can just jump into a game like GW2 and do something for fun.

[Underskilled]

Screw raiding, seriously. It is a lame excuse of a goal. I don't know why the MMO world has sealed into their heads that endgame should be gearing your character up. FUCK that.
I'd kill for an MMO that can provide a different goal for a change.
Perhaps world domination? A good reason to PvP, like taking over land to gain certain benefits (like tax money muahah)? Or some other guild goals rather than gearing up - resource nodes, guild towns, guild tournaments, whatever... the options are endless.
Devs just need to stop copying WoW-like game systems and try to create something unique for a change.
They need to give endgame some meaning.

I will just quote this man:

Why would devs stop copying WoW? It's the most successful and popular MMORPG in the WORLD, having nearly 4-5x more subscribers than the next leading MMO. It rakes in billions almost every month.

People that make games put in time sinks and power plateaus because that's what people want, that's what the world wants. Why do we work for a living? So we can afford that one thing someday, or go on that one trip someday. Yes it's a game, but if you have nothing to really work for, no real reason to strive to be better, you may as well be watching a movie.

Devs design games with a little carrot dangling in front of you, because that's what the majority want. We want to work for something, and we want to have doing it. WoW captured that, and supercharged it, now Blizzard is beyond rich, it makes sense other Devs will try to follow in their footsteps.

This is why I'm a little scared for GW2. Anet has the courage to say "Yeah, we don't need to dangle no carrot! Players will have fun just playing the game!" and I respect them for that, for thinking outside the box, but if it backfires, they have spent years, and years, and YEARS working on GW2, and all the time and money would go to waste. If players don't respond positively to their system, it'll be a waste.

[Grable]

Why would devs stop copying WoW? It's the most successful and popular MMORPG in the WORLD, having nearly 4-5x more subscribers than the next leading MMO. It rakes in billions almost every month.

People that make games put in time sinks and power plateaus because that's what people want, that's what the world wants. Why do we work for a living? So we can afford that one thing someday, or go on that one trip someday. Yes it's a game, but if you have nothing to really work for, no real reason to strive to be better, you may as well be watching a movie.

Devs design games with a little carrot dangling in front of you, because that's what the majority want. We want to work for something, and we want to have doing it. WoW captured that, and supercharged it, now Blizzard is beyond rich, it makes sense other Devs will try to follow in their footsteps.

This is why I'm a little scared for GW2. Anet has the courage to say "Yeah, we don't need to dangle no carrot! Players will have fun just playing the game!" and I respect them for that, for thinking outside the box, but if it backfires, they have spent years, and years, and YEARS working on GW2, and all the time and money would go to waste. If players don't respond positively to their system, it'll be a waste.

And such attitude ("Why play something else if WoW-type is fine and everyone plays it") is exactly the reason why developers think it would be a bad investment to try something new. I'm pretty sure if majority of WoW players would take their tinfoiled hats off and try something NEW for a change they would see how a great MMO looks and perhaps get their own ideas on how to improve/create an innovative game.
But NO.
It's much easier to play WoW and every other copy of it and just say "meh it works, it's the best because it has the most players".
And this is why I have doubts we'll see a good (or "next-gen") game coming out soon.

[m3x]

Although this has been discussed at least 5 times in the primary thread, the GW2 end game starts at level 1. Guild Wars 2 is more about the Journey (dynamic events, exploring, personal story and such) as opposed to the Destination (level 80). There will be 8 dungeons (with story and exploration modes) starting out, thousands of dynamic events (which go on whether or not players are involved) a fully personal story (you're actually the hero, not just a nameless orc or human warrior). And given A-Nets "patch" history there will probably a minor content patch every other month or so, and a major content release (perhaps, another campaign or expansion) every 6 months.

Guild Wars 1 "endgame" took place in higher level areas (monsters were level 20+) and was comprised of story-based missions and elite areas (Fissure of Woe, Underworld, Sorrows Furnace, Factions released The Deep and Urgoz's Warren).

A-Net is planning on having enough enjoyable content throughout the entirety of the game, as opposed to focusing on blowing through levels to get into the dungeon to get gear for the heroic dungeon, to get gear for the raid, to get gear for the heroic raid to get gear for the next tier, and so on.

Have you ever played guild wars 1? (i played it for 4 years) there sure as hell isnt content patches that often and far from that often expancions, they like to milk it good before they release new content since they survive on the microtransactions, id love to see them actually charge a monthly fee so they actually need to make content more often

[Underskilled]

And such attitude ("Why play something else if WoW-type is fine and everyone plays it") is exactly the reason why developers think it would be a bad investment to try something new. I'm pretty sure if majority of WoW players would take their tinfoiled hats off and try something NEW for a change they would see how a great MMO looks and perhaps get their own ideas on how to improve/create an innovative game.
But NO.
It's much easier to play WoW and every other copy of it and just say "meh it works, it's the best because it has the most players".
And this is why I have doubts we'll see a good (or "next-gen") game coming out soon.

I'm all for them trying something new, ushering in a new generation of games, but the majority of MMORPG players are accustomed the the carrot-on-a-stick end-game in MMO's. NCsoft and Anet have worked too long, too hard, and spent tons of money on GW2, it would be incredibly risky for them to bust out a completely new type of gameplay.

Just my opinion, but Anet/NCsoft needs to be very careful with GW2, and be ready to change on the fly. If they start to get negative feedback about re-playability, they'll need to move VERY fast with changes, or people will up and quit, causing all their money and work to just disappear

[m3x]

Then obviously you didn't play it from the start, most micro-transactions were only added later on so it's kinda bull what you're saying.

But clearly lacking a real endgame Anet will need to release content every 6 months or so (content that you buy).

My brother got me in to it when Factions got released

[Grable]

I'm all for them trying something new, ushering in a new generation of games, but the majority of MMORPG players are accustomed the the carrot-on-a-stick end-game in MMO's. NCsoft and Anet have worked too long, too hard, and spent tons of money on GW2, it would be incredibly risky for them to bust out a completely new type of gameplay.

Never did I take you for one of the tinfoils to be honest. I can see you get it. Well we can still hope for some company to risk it and try something new

[Underskilled]

*SIGH*

It's not new it's the same as with the original game, which was a success.

Are you sure? I recall things like monks pretty much being dedicated healers, and warriors being dedicated tanks, unless I was misinformed.

Never did I take you for one of the tinfoils to be honest. I can see you get it. Well we can still hope for some company to risk it and try something new

I'm glad we both understand each other. I want companies to take risks and try some new things, what I don't want is the community to say "this is stupid, never do it again" and then have them react with "oh, well we better not try this again".

Take vindictus for example, there's no dedicated tank, or healer. Everyone can dps, and you must rely on your self healing, and dodging skills to stay alive. There was a lot of mixed feedback in that game, and Nexon made changes on the fly to keep people happy, while still retaining it's main idea.

If GW2 can do that, keeping the majority happy while still retaining it's removal of the holy trinity, and removal of carrot-on-a-stick endgame, people will LOVE it.