1. #1
    Herald of the Titans Irisel's Avatar
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    10/25m Raid Shared Lockouts

    Cataclysm for my guild has been very rough. We have honestly lost ~30% of our experienced raiders since January. We pick up at least one new raider every week, without fail, just to fill the holes (we're a 25 man guild). And trust me, when you're desperate just to fill holes, you don't always get the freshest fruit. We have some extremely good raiders and some not so hot ones. And, this week we FINALLY freaking finally hit 12/12reg 25 man progression.

    I really tried thinking of why... Why have so many people gotten so burned out by Cataclysm and why can we not keep people around? Progression has been abysmal the past few months because of all of these factors:
    1. People are getting burned out
    2. People stop playing the game because of it
    3. Progress gets grinded to a halt because we lose experienced players, and have to start fresh all the damn time.


    Now I can only speak for myself and most of my guildies that it is because of the shared lockout for 10 man and 25 man. Because size does not matter, people are enjoying raiding far less. Half of my guild can only raid for 2-3 nights a week while the other more dedicated (generally more skilled) half are online 4, 5, 6, 7 nights a week, wanting to do something. When those 25 man nights roll around and we only get 16 people online morale drops. And when this happens over and over it gets under some peoples' skin enough that it makes them gquit, or stop playing all together.

    Why do Regular modes and Heroic modes share a cooldown? I can under stand 10mans/25mans sharing one, but not regular/heroic. If I understand Blizzard's reasoning, they didn't want to force people to run as a 10 man guild or a 25 man guild because of loots' ilvl. They wanted guilds to be comprised up of either size, depending on how the guildies had more fun.

    But, now that size doesn't matter, but rather difficultly matters for ilvl, I think blizzard should unsplice the locks outs for heroic content and regular content. Size shouldn't matter, but difficultly should. Both sizes are supposed to be balanced to one another...

    My main reasoning is that they're forcing guilds, even more than in WTLK, to decide between being a 25 man guild or a 10 man guild. If you can't get those 25 man people herded into heroic modes(for whatever progression reason), mostlikely you can get 10 people skilled enough for them though. But of course, you can't. It's either 25 man regulars 2-3 nights a week, or 10 man heroics 2-3 night a week. When I would prefer 25 man regulars 2-3 a week, and 10 man heroics 1-2 nights a week, all in the same week!

    [TL;DR]: Shame on you for not reading and if you post without reading the entire thread first. But, I think heroic modes and regular modes should NOT share a lockout; size would still not matter. Sharing 25m and 10m lock out has literally cut available raiding material in half and in my case, successfully ruined my guild's overall progression.
    Last edited by Irisel; 2011-06-10 at 07:53 AM.

  2. #2
    If they separated the 2 we'd lose the option to switch from reg to heroic whenever we want. You'd have to have a H mode raid and a reg raid. You couldn't go back and forth.

  3. #3
    I think the problem is not what you are imagining it to be. You are at 12/12 normal mode progression now, two weeks before the next patch releases content.

    The problem is the pool of people you are raiding with are either alts, or people who aren't really used to raiding throughout the entirety of wow. The people who are and do are generally further progressed by now... so the people that you are recruiting from don't have the experience, and probably aren't as motivated to continue showing up week after week to progress. The problem isn't everyone in wow giving up or losing interest, a lot of the time it is simply just the new players who are trying it out and getting disillusioned.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Irisel View Post
    Cataclysm for my guild has been very rough. We have honestly lost ~30% of our experienced raiders since January. We pick up at least one new raider every week, without fail, just to fill the holes (we're a 25 man guild). And trust me, when you're desperate just to fill holes, you don't always get the freshest fruit. We have some extremely good raiders and some not so hot ones. And, this week we FINALLY freaking finally hit 12/12reg 25 man progression.

    I really tried thinking of why... Why have so many people gotten so burned out by Cataclysm and why can we not keep people around? Progression has been abysmal the past few months because of all of these factors:
    1. People are getting burned out
    2. People stop playing the game because of it
    3. Progress gets grinded to a halt because we lose experienced players, and have to start fresh all the damn time.


    Now I can only speak for myself and most of my guildies that it is because of the shared lockout for 10 man and 25 man. Because size does not matter, people are enjoying raiding far less. Half of my guild can only raid for 2-3 nights a week while the other more dedicated (generally more skilled) half are online 4, 5, 6, 7 nights a week, wanting to do something. When those 25 man nights roll around and we only get 16 people online morale drops. And when this happens over and over it gets under some peoples' skin enough that it makes them gquit, or stop playing all together.

    Why do Regular modes and Heroic modes share a cooldown? I can under stand 10mans/25mans sharing one, but not regular/heroic. If I understand Blizzard's reasoning, they didn't want to force people to run as a 10 man guild or a 25 man guild because of loots' ilvl. They wanted guilds to be comprised up of either size, depending on how the guildies had more fun.

    But, now that size doesn't matter, but rather difficultly matters for ilvl, I think blizzard should unsplice the locks outs for heroic content and regular content. Size shouldn't matter, but difficultly should. Both sizes are supposed to be balanced to one another...

    My main reasoning is that they're forcing guilds, even more than in WTLK, to decide between being a 25 man guild or a 10 man guild. If you can't get those 25 man people herded into heroic modes(for whatever progression reason), mostlikely you can get 10 people skilled enough for them though. But of course, you can't. It's either 25 man regulars 2-3 nights a week, or 10 man heroics 2-3 night a week. When I would prefer 25 man regulars 2-3 a week, and 10 man heroics 1-2 nights a week, all in the same week!

    [TL;DR]: Shame on you for not reading and if you post without reading the entire thread first. But, I think heroic modes and regular modes should NOT share a lockout; size would still not matter. Sharing 25m and 10m lock out has literally cut available raiding material in half and in my case, successfully ruined my guild's overall progression.
    Our guild had the exact same problem from the start of Cata. We were only used to raiding 25man so that was the natural way to go. However, as some people quit and we had to do recruiting, doing progress got gradually harder with having to gear new people and teach them the ropes. So we made the tough call and just moved to doing 10mans. Majority of the guild left for greener pastures and we kept the solid 15 or so players we needed. There has been some natural change in the roster ofc. But we this worked out for the best for us to be able to enjoy the game again.

    And to you gripe about 25man and 10 sharing the lockout. Just look at it this way. Guild that have the proper 25man core and can do nice progress, would still be able to do 10man also and gain unfair advantage lootwise compared to 10man guilds, when it is supposed to be balanced between those two. So there. I'm quite satisfied how it has worked out. Our 10man guild usually has lots of alts and socials who we do raids with on alts and such when main raid has been cleared weekly, so there is still stuff to do on most of the days.
    Last edited by Keulanaama; 2011-06-10 at 01:10 PM.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Irisel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tthhi View Post
    I think the problem is not what you are imagining it to be. You are at 12/12 normal mode progression now, two weeks before the next patch releases content.

    The problem is the pool of people you are raiding with are either alts, or people who aren't really used to raiding throughout the entirety of wow. The people who are and do are generally further progressed by now... so the people that you are recruiting from don't have the experience, and probably aren't as motivated to continue showing up week after week to progress. The problem isn't everyone in wow giving up or losing interest, a lot of the time it is simply just the new players who are trying it out and getting disillusioned.
    Not to be rude, and I mean that completely, but I think I know why, in my own case, far more than you. The reason we have crappy people raiding is because we are desperate to fill spots, and the reason we are desperate to fill spots is because long term raiders stopped raiding, and THAT is because the content got stale because we hit a wall. It's all a big cycle, but I have determined it to be because of heroic/regular sharing a lockout.
    /runonsentence

    ---------- Post added 2011-06-11 at 02:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Keulanaama View Post
    And to you gripe about 25man and 10 sharing the lockout.
    I'm actually gripping about 25 man REGULAR sharing a lockout with 10 man HEROIC. My issue is that I want to be able to do fun, guild regular 25 mans, which is what my guild focuses on 2-3 nights a week, and then on the weekends focus on heroic 10 mans and/or rap up whatever content the 25 man did not get around to. This is exactly what my guild did in WTLK. We had a 25 man group that mainly did regulars and a couple of heroics towards the end of the dungeon before it became obsolete, and a 10 man group that was comprised up of the best of the guild that would push heroic encounters in a 10 man setting.

    Cata has cut this framework in half. I want to raid for progression and for fun. Now my guild is forced to choose between the two.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Irisel View Post
    Not to be rude, and I mean that completely, but I think I know why, in my own case, far more than you. The reason we have crappy people raiding is because we are desperate to fill spots, and the reason we are desperate to fill spots is because long term raiders stopped raiding, and THAT is because the content got stale because we hit a wall. It's all a big cycle, but I have determined it to be because of heroic/regular sharing a lockout.
    /runonsentence

    ---------- Post added 2011-06-11 at 02:07 AM ----------



    I'm actually gripping about 25 man REGULAR sharing a lockout with 10 man HEROIC. My issue is that I want to be able to do fun, guild regular 25 mans, which is what my guild focuses on 2-3 nights a week, and then on the weekends focus on heroic 10 mans and/or rap up whatever content the 25 man did not get around to. This is exactly what my guild did in WTLK. We had a 25 man group that mainly did regulars and a couple of heroics towards the end of the dungeon before it became obsolete, and a 10 man group that was comprised up of the best of the guild that would push heroic encounters in a 10 man setting.

    Cata has cut this framework in half. I want to raid for progression and for fun. Now my guild is forced to choose between the two.
    They'll never allow this, given that gear from one directly affects performance in the other. To be honestly competitive, every week possible a guild would need to run both a normal raid and a heroic raid in the same week, rotating people as needed, in order to maximize the gear progression of their entire raid. You are doing it for fun, others would see it as a requirement. And that is bad.

    As long as 10-man loot is the same as 25-man loot, or until Blizzard decides they don't care how fast people gear up, the lockout system we have now is here to stay.

    If you really want to be able to do an additional raid each week, why don't the 10-15 of you roll and gear alts? It's what my guild has ended up doing, and it has worked out well.
    Last edited by Gurbz; 2011-07-07 at 03:49 PM.

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