Choice vs the illusion of choice in games

[OrcsRLame]

Before you go any further, this is a rant and will contain spoilers for dragon age, dragon age 2, and elder scrolls 3. I am very frustrated right now and will attempt to keep the anger level slightly below nuclear.

I have always been a fan of RPGs of any kind. I enjoy an immersive story and gameplay experience. Having heard good things about Bioware I recently decided to purchase Dragon age and Dragon age 2. From what I'd heard of these games they seemed to be a good fit for the type of experience I am looking for. Fantasy RPGs that focus on telling a story via player choices. I enjoyed Dragon age 1 a lot, though at times it frustrated me greatly. Mainly it was gameplay issues I had at first. Sometimes it took several minutes for enemies to become lootable and I had to deal with many bugs and other small annoyances in the game. That is another rant entirely though.I reached a whole new level of butthurt late in the game. I was playing a warrior champion of good. I always did what was right and saved everyone I could. I saved the circle of magi, I ended the werewolf curse and saved both them and the Dalish, I saved Arl Eamon and his entire family, I got slightly annoyed by dwarven politics and put the "good" king on the throne. I did all the pre-landsmeet quests in Denerim, and then it finally came time to make Alistair king and defeat Loghain. This was were the butt pain truely started.

The landsmeet sided with me, and I pwned Loghain in a one on one duel. But he was still alive. I decided I would show Loghain mercy if I could, it's what my character would do. So Arl Eamon and Alistair are telling me to kill him, and before I get to say anything Riordan comes in and suggests an alternative. Instead of killing him I could make him a grey warden. Alistair flips out and starts whining like a bitch at this. I tell Alistair to shut up and that I'm going to spare Loghain. At this Alistair freaks out even more and says it's him or Loghain. If I make Loghain a grey warden, Alistair will leave. If I don't make Loghain a grey warden he will be executed. When I realized I only had two options I wanted to punch my TV. I sat there and thought about it for a few minutes, and I quickly came to a conclusion. Bioware fails at writing because Alistair is acting completely out of character. Though Loghain was an evil man, and responsible for the death of Duncan, Alistair should have still accepted him as a warden. The one thing Duncan always taught Alistair is that the wardens accept help from anyone, because the blight must be defeated at all costs. By denying Loghain joining the wardens Alistair is effectively spitting on the grave of Duncan by going against everything he believed in. I desperately wanted to say this to Alistair, but there were no conversation options even remotely close to that.

So I hopped on my computer and looked up this little dillema online. As I thought, you can't have both. If you spare Loghain Anora becomes queen and will have Alistair executed, or exiled if you ask her to spare him. Fyi exile makes Alistair into a crazy wandering drunk. Finding no alternative on the internet, I decided to do what I personally considered to be the evil thing and kill Loghain. So I continued on, until the night before the battle for Denerim. Riordan explained that the grey warden that kills the archdemon dies, so one of us three will not make it out alive. That didn't sound cool but I figured there'd be a way around it. I was right, I talked to Morrigan, she told me about her blood magic ritual to save the grey wardens if I agree to her stupid terms. Having lost all patience for this game I decided to look up the rest of the choices online.

1. Someone sleeps with Morrigan, you slay the Archdemon and then she leaves with the child. If you make any other choice Morrigan leaves the party immediately and is unavailable for the final battle.
2. You killl the Archdemon and die. Boo hoo that sucks, shitty ending.
3 Alistair kills the Archdemon and dies. Anora becomes queen so I hate this ending.
4 Loghain kills the Archdemon and dies.
That's it, no other ending. Riordan dies before the final battle so he's not an option.
I chose option 1. I considered it to be the best ending, but it still left me feeling very dissatisfied. I would have prefered to make Alistair king, and have Loghain kill the Archdemon, thus earning his redemption. I felt like after the landsmeet the game was making the important choices for me.

Being stubborn as a mule I popped in dragon age 2. It seemed like a cool enough game to start with. I ran through the start of the game as a dps warrior. I was a little sad when Carver died, but it was the start of the game so I hardly knew him. I quickly got wrapped up in the champion's story to make Kirkwall into a home for himself and his family. And that's how I decided to "roleplay my character", I would do anything to protect my family. I quickly decide that I will go through the entire game using Aveline, Bethany, and Varric as party members. Seemed like a balanced party to me. 1 Dps warrior, 1 tanking warrior, 1 healer/dps/buffing mage, and 1 ranged rogue. I did every single sidequest in act 1 before going on the deep roads expedition. And so far I was really enjoying the game. I was level 12, and I felt like I was in control of what was happening in the game. So I start up the deep roads quest, and Hawke's mother comes up to me and begs me not to take Bethany with me, because she doesn't want to lose her like she lost Carver. At this point I quote Han Solo and say, "I've got a bad feeling about this"...

So I ask Bethany for her opinion. She begs me to let her come because she'd rather face darkspawn than risk being caught by the local templars. I think some more, and I decide the safest place for her to be is right next me. I have a PHD in badass and I'll just be real careful to make sure nothing happens to her. I go through the deep roads and everything appears to be a huge success, I didn't care at all about Bartrands betrayal. As we're leaving the deep roads though Bethany starts acting funny... Long and short of it, she somehow got tainted by the darkspawn, and she dies. BULLSHIT! I never let even one of those enemies get anywhere near my healer! The game just arbitrarily declared my party member dead for no reason! Where was my choice in that?
I hit up the interwebz for information again. I decide if there is any way to keep Bethany I am restarting my game. The alternatives are just as bad though. If she stays in Kirkwall the templars find her and drag her to the circle. Or if you bring her and Anders to the deep roads Anders turns her into a grey warden to save her from the taint. No matter what option you choose though, there is absolutely no possible way to keep her as a party member past that point in the game. Even as a grey warden she leaves. And that is where I'm at now. I feel like every time I as the player have wanted to do something in a Bioware game I am shut down by a lack of choices in a game that prides itself on the player making choices. I want Bethany to keep being my healer, that is my bloody choice! Where is that option because I want it!

These games do not offer interesting choices, they railroad you a completely linear path and only let you decide the small stuff. I will take a game like Elder scrolls 3 any day. That game has real choices. That is a game where the player can do what they want, when they want, with zero restrictions. You want to muder that guard captain? Go right ahead, you can beat him you can kill him. You want to fight the final boss 20 minutes into the game? Go for it, the game will not stop you in any way. Elder scrolls games are built for the player's enjoyment, not for the developer making them. Bioware would be too scared to make a game where you can just jump right to the end, because it would ruin their precious story. They have a lot of nerve claiming that their games are built on player choices, when really their games are as linear as call of duty or halo.

I feel lied to and I am going to speak with my money. After Mass Effect 3 I will never buy another Bioware game. Everything else they put out is gold plated garbage.

[PACOX]

So you got let down by Dragon Age 2 also?

In DA2 you play a role in Mass Effect you define your role. You still have to play the game by the rules though. Only truly open world games like Elder Scrolls or Fallout provide any real choices. Everything is akin to reading a book with alternate endings.

[Zalmanusa]

I'd suggest trying Witcher 2.
But I agree that there's too much illusion of choice in gaming nowdays.

[Deleted]

I don't really see nothing wrong with it. After all, you don't play a god. You can't force people to think and act differently in real life too you know. As for the Alistair VS Loghain choice, it made perfect sense to me. He was a mass murderer, couldn't be trusted and deserved to die. Would you have spared someone who killed your mentor, poisoned your stepdad and nearly destroyed your country?

When I played it, I actually didn't have the choice at all, I let Alistair duel him and he just killed him at the end without any choice to spare them and it seemed perfectly right to me. As for the ending, well, sure, it would have been nice and comfy to have ol' Loghy there at the end to kill the dragon but since no one knew about it when they executed Loghain, it doesn't really matter.

It's the same as saying that the game sucks because you couldn't warn the king about Loghain betrayal at the start.

[Deleted]

So you got let down by Dragon Age 2 also?

In DA2 you play a role in Mass Effect you define your role. You still have to play the game by the rules though. Only truly open world games like Elder Scrolls or Fallout provide any real choices. Everything is akin to reading a book with alternate endings.

The OP is right, the illusion of choice is even worse in DA2 than in DA:O. No matter what you choose, the story is still the same from the beggining to the end.


To the OP, try Witcher 2.

[Talorh]

I actually too would have preferred to have him spared AND having Alistair on the throne... alas...

[Deleted]

1 word, skyrim. you know its gonna own, so why complain now when you can die happy in november.

OT: i will admit, i greatly preferred DA:O over DA2 i actually havnt completed DA2 it annoyed me that much. (altho i watched my bro do the bits i didnt) i prefered the way it played but the story just seemed like something meshed together quickly. but yes i find that for overall fun/playability TES is the best EVER!

[Deleted]

Well, I guess it's hard to program all possibilities in a game. What would happen if I killed this entire village, what would happen if I don't want to do this particular quest etc. Some games (TES series) are more catered towards this than others (DA). If you really want perfect freedom, I think the only option is P&P RPGs.

I was perfectly happy with the Dragon Age story, but hey, to each their own.

[DaGhostDS]

You would prefer having none? At least its better than fable "choice", in Molyneux voice it sounded a lot more versatile, but it was just minor change...

For Having made a playthrough as a mage, you would not like Carver.. hes a whiny bitch of doom, your ears will bleed from all his whining. Even giving him a gift, he whine wth?

Bethany come back later a few time.

The OP is right, the illusion of choice is even worse in DA2 than in DA:O. No matter what you choose, the story is still the same from the beggining to the end.

0,ôrly? There are two factions at the end and you have to side with one, that change the end of the game.

[Deleted]

0,ôrly? There are two factions at the end and you have to side with one, that change the end of the game.

The OP wasn't talking about endings, but freedom of choice. Witcher is the one that works better with it.

[OrcsRLame]

I don't really see nothing wrong with it. After all, you don't play a god. You can't force people to think and act differently in real life too you know. As for the Alistair VS Loghain choice, it made perfect sense to me. He was a mass murderer, couldn't be trusted and deserved to die. Would you have spared someone who killed your mentor, poisoned your stepdad and nearly destroyed your country?

When I played it, I actually didn't have the choice at all, I let Alistair duel him and he just killed him at the end without any choice to spare them and it seemed perfectly right to me. As for the ending, well, sure, it would have been nice and comfy to have ol' Loghy there at the end to kill the dragon but since no one knew about it when they executed Loghain, it doesn't really matter.

It's the same as saying that the game sucks because you couldn't warn the king about Loghain betrayal at the start.

It's not the same thing though. The final lesson Duncan taught Alistair was that we need to put personal hatred asside to work together against the blight. I am certain if Duncan was there, he would have spared Loghain and Alistair would have understood why. Besides, it wasn't about trust at all. Alistair said Loghain doesn't deserve the honor of being a grey warden, and that he will never stand next to him as a brother.

The entire scene feels very forced, and I suspect is just there so you don't end up with 4-5 warriors in your group. To everyone else, sounds like I may need to give the Witcher series a try.

[Senaelanna]

Bioware is the king of introducing the illusion of choice in their games. It was evident in ME, but painfully obviously blatant in DA. This is just one of the many reasons I have no faith in SW:TOR being anywhere near the game that it's hyped up to be.

[unholytestament]

It's very likely that Alistair would have difficulty taking Duncan's lesson to heart when faced with deciding the fate of the man who caused his death.

A lesson taught isn't always a lesson learned.

[OrcsRLame]

It's very likely that Alistair would have difficulty taking Duncan's lesson to heart when faced with deciding the fate of the man who caused his death.

A lesson taught isn't always a lesson learned.

Yes but none of my characters were smart enough to think of that? Not even my rogue with an 86 cunning? If I was there IRL I could have convinced Alistair by bringing up Duncan, I'm sure of it. I'm pretty sure my rogue with an 86 cunning is many many times smarter than me.

[unholytestament]

Yes but none of my characters were smart enough to think of that? Not even my rogue with an 86 cunning? If I was there IRL I could have convinced Alistair by bringing up Duncan, I'm sure of it. I'm pretty sure my rogue with an 86 cunning is many many times smarter than me.

Even if they had, what if it still didn't work? Would you continue to bitch at Bioware for railroading or would you accept the very real notion that there's certain issues people won't budge on despite being taught to do otherwise?

[Fenixdown]

Bioware is the king of introducing the illusion of choice in their games. It was evident in ME, but painfully obviously blatant in DA. This is just one of the many reasons I have no faith in SW:TOR being anywhere near the game that it's hyped up to be.

I don't think the company is the reason I have no faith in SWTOR. The playerbase it's going to ultimately end up having is.

It'll be a massive portion of the "WAH WAH I HATE WOW CUZ OF (insert arbitrary and stereotypical idiotic excuse to hate WoW here) SO I'M PLAYING THIS GAME THAT IS JUST LIKE IT BUT I CAN BE A JEDI SO IT'S BEST GAME EVER".

I suppose the thing you said would be a close second to not have any faith in that game, though.

[Deleted]

It's not the same thing though. The final lesson Duncan taught Alistair was that we need to put personal hatred asside to work together against the blight. I am certain if Duncan was there, he would have spared Loghain and Alistair would have understood why. Besides, it wasn't about trust at all. Alistair said Loghain doesn't deserve the honor of being a grey warden, and that he will never stand next to him as a brother.

The entire scene feels very forced, and I suspect is just there so you don't end up with 4-5 warriors in your group. To everyone else, sounds like I may need to give the Witcher series a try.

No he wouldn't have. He was pretty cruel and fanatical. I was actually shocked that he just shanked ser Jory for just having doubts when he saw what happened to the first guy who drank the blood.. and he had a family and didn't really do anything wrong.

Plus, Loghain was a traitor and a murderer who had nearly all gray wardens killed at the battle at the start. If they were so forgiving, why didn't every caught thief and murderer just join them? Kill off a few gray wardens and when caught, "oops, sorry, can I join you instead?"

And Alistair really really hated the guy, even if somehow Duncan would have spared him, Alistair was obsessed with vengeance and it was understandable.

[Deleted]

This isn't a flaw; it's a simple fact of the limits of RPGs and storytelling itself. The plot has to be able to endure the effect of the player's decisions, otherwise it decays into incoherence. And this isn't as unrealistic as some might think, as choices in real life are just as (and usually even more) limited than the ones we see in games. Remember: you're playing from the perspective of one individual, but possess the external perspective of a third-party viewer, which is always wider. The frustration you're musing on is simply the natural discrepancy between those views.

And don't let the Witcher franchise fool you: though the games do a better job than most in sharpening the temporary impact of your decisions, the plot in both games plays out more or less entirely the same no matter what you do. Your choices merely determine which side of events you experience and the fates of a few minor characters. In the end, they're the same as Bioware choices, just a little more developed and convoluted.

In terms of consequences, Bioware choices tend to be more or less as impactful as you'll ever see. And many are far more important than people give them credit for, e.g., the decisions you make at the end of Mass Effect. No, they don't radically change the experience you have in Mass Effect 2, but they essentially determine the geopolitical face of the galaxy, and there's no way an individual can fully appreciate that significance beyond a few news reports. Yet those few news reports give you a realistic sense of not only their impact, but how you yourself would feel it if you were in your character's shoes.

It's funny that people make fun of Bioware choices so much when no company has more consistently pushed the envelope of what significance your choices can have. Mass Effect 2 was a milestone in making decisions in a previous game meaningful to you as a player. Though their nominal impact is minor and don't greatly effect the events of the game, they allow you to feel invested in them as your own, which is what really matters. We'll see how Mass Effect 3 delivers on the promise of choice; I'm rather excited to see if they can succeed in overcoming the limits of storytelling and allow you to really determine the fate of the galaxy.

[flarecde]

There's a varied line between railroad and sandbox, and they all have their pros and cons.

More structured games tend to have a deeper story, because the writers know roughly what the player is going to do and when. But in order to provide choices they either need to play the illusionist, or provide tons and tons of extra content that grows exponentially with each major choice made.

Sandbox games let the player play as they choose, but can suffer from feeling like they have a lack of direction. Additionally, they tend to feature much shorter, less deep main plot lines.

Ultimately, it comes down to personal preference. I tend to play RPGs for the story, and I prefer having my goals laid out, so while I do play sandbox type games on occasion, I rarely play them for long or complete them. I don't mind the illusion of choice because I almost never play a game twice. To me choice simply represents content I'll probably never see, then.

[D_K_night]

I don't think there's any real answer here. If you're playing a game which has a scripted storyline, there are only so many forks and turns the story can take. Let's imagine for a moment that there were 10 possible outcomes based on a pivotal point in the timeline, and the choices you made, which are profoundly game-changing.

The branches go into innumerable other branches and soon I'll be delving into twilight zone territory. You seem to have an issue with the story not giving you the choices that feel would have suited your understanding, but unfortunately I have to say that it's a subjective opinion.

For example let's imagine for a moment that played the game "in-character" - you're a heroic warrior, always wanting to do the right thing, the lawful good path. Even in situations of grey-area morality, you made the clear-cut choices to do more good, and even if the outcomes turned out bad, your motives were always pure.

As least that's what you believed in. But the storyline took a dark path, and your actions trickled down and caused just as much hardship, if not more, than the good you wanted. Wouldn't your character then, start to doubt himself, his drive compromised, his anger rising? What about the faithful companion who was forced to betray you - to save his family?

And now the pivotal moment comes. You're presented with the choice to either spare your traitorous comrade, or finish him off. See the problem is - you probably want a 3rd, 4th, or even 5th possible choice available. Or possibly even combine the choices together to make your own story, the way you wanted things to play out. For example let's say you said "I'll spare you, BUT to guarantee your loyalty, I'm going to do (horrible thing) to you, and reverse it after our journey is over". HOW - would that choice play out? The game would have to spawn a crippled minion(to represent your friend)...not sure if that would make a lot of people happy(maybe it would, but I'm going way off topic).

Unfortunately as a computer game, there's only so much you can do. Maybe if you played D&D with friends or something, maybe the GM will allow for a weird, off-the-cuff choice(but even the GM would be either forced to improvise, or have prepared in advance, what the outcome would be).

*EDIT corrected some typos