[Priest] State of Holy - 4.2.0

[Themos]

I think the key word in your statement is subjective. There are far way too many variables to have anything even close to a 'cap' to shoot for. Even on a per priest per raid basis, all sorts of unpredictable little things can throw off this 'value'. Aiming for some cap is generally not something I'd be willing to do b/c that extra mana is needed when something goes wrong. Under that circumstance do you call for a wipe b/c you don't have your target mana consumption or do you roll with the punches? Healing is more about dealing with the unexpected than following some flow chart or spreadsheet.

While I do have an issue with the concept of a 'cap', I'm not disagreeing with the above discussion that Holy will have a scaling issue. Holding everyone else to steady gains, and giving us an extra scaling regen mechanic is a double edged sword. We'll either be under mana powered or over, and the former is far more likely to survive MoP release. However, since the talent calculator is far from finished, I wouldn't just knee jerk. Give it time to formalize a bit more. It's far too early to analyze anything right now. At best, some loose musings about some of our new abilities are appropriate.

[nobodysbaby]

I keep thinking it's so bad devs couldn't predict mana regen better this tier, and create a balance like this for all classes. It is interesting to be individual in playstyle, and to be able to choose how much Spirit you want vs other secondary stats. I see us as lucky. Hope they can do this for the other healing classes/speccs in the future.

[Dianthe]

Would just like to point out that the above discussion between me and Kelesti was set in a future 5.0 situation in which healers mana bars do not "grow" but are instead fixed and where int does not contribute to your regen... since it seems some people are applying it to 4.3 or even the current situation for some reason.

As far as the "regen cap" goes - regen is definately not endlessly useful. If at the end of a fight you did your job, saved the day and ended with 70% mana then you are most definitely better off turning some of that superfluous spirit into haste/mastery/crit. And that's what we are talking about.

That it "depends" on the player and so on might be true - but the truth is that most people who play disc or druid for example will stop at around the same amount of spirit with only marginal differences. Even with elements of surprise in the healing model you are still bound by your GCD and by the amount of damage in a fight.

You have things like CDs and pots for unexpected situations - all in all the point is that more spirit is not always good as you *do* reach a point where more mana simply becomes superfluous.

As for nobodysbaby's comment - other classes also choose how much spirit they need. Many of them just happen to need a lot less than we do, which doesn't make us "lucky" in any way, but is rather somewhat of a handicap as we often end up having to choose spirit over other secondary stats. Truth be told - I see the situation quite the opposite : other healers can actually choose how much spirit they want versus other stats - holy priests either want spirit on every item, or reforge other secondary stats into spirit if it is not available on a given item, which is not particularly compelling game play as far as I'm concerned.

Call me a pessimist if you want - might be because I've been forced into playing disc so long that I've actually started to lose any faith in the holy tree. We'll see in 4.3 - it sounds better than the present at least.

[Themos]

As far as the "regen cap" goes - regen is definately not endlessly useful. If at the end of a fight you did your job, saved the day and ended with 70% mana then you are most definitely better off turning some of that superfluous spirit into haste/mastery/crit. And that's what we are talking about.

Why? If you are already doing the encounter well, and noone is dying messing with your stats results in a zero change. You'll still be "saving the day" and doing your job, unless you really FUBAR your stats somehow. Gear should most definitely be tweaked for current progression you're having trouble with, not for the stuff that's on farm.

That it "depends" on the player and so on might be true - but the truth is that most people who play disc or druid for example will stop at around the same amount of spirit with only marginal differences. Even with elements of surprise in the healing model you are still bound by your GCD and by the amount of damage in a fight.

Holy is able mana dump more than Disc and Restos, the comparison isn't accurate. Yea, mana regen isn't infinitely useful, but not in any expansion have I ever reforged out of spirit, not gemmed for the stuff, or worn pure DPS items deliberately. It's a scenario that hasn't happened yet and as such practically irrelevant.

You have things like CDs and pots for unexpected situations - all in all the point is that more spirit is not always good as you *do* reach a point where more mana simply becomes superfluous.

While I try and keep my pot CD for emergencies, my fiend/hymn are part of regular duty cycle. A mana pot doesn't have a huge impact, it's only a small staple. Extra mana from extra regen is the key component to slopping up a mistake someone made, whether it's a healer, tank, or DPS that fracked up.

As for nobodysbaby's comment - other classes also choose how much spirit they need. Many of them just happen to need a lot less than we do, which doesn't make us "lucky" in any way, but is rather somewhat of a handicap as we often end up having to choose spirit over other secondary stats. Truth be told - I see the situation quite the opposite : other healers can actually choose how much spirit they want versus other stats - holy priests either want spirit on every item, or reforge other secondary stats into spirit if it is not available on a given item, which is not particularly compelling game play as far as I'm concerned.

The curious thing about healing is that you can't heal a boss to death faster. As long as people are surviving, the rest is gravy.
It only becomes relevant again if you want to drop down to one less healer or attempt an achievement, or something.

Besides, spirit *IS* a good stat, it does more for us than other classes/specs. If you don't like the Holy priest's dependence on it so much, swap specs or class. Going into Cataclysm, it was pretty obvious that Spirit would be a key stat for the Holy tree again. I wouldn't consider it a hindrance at all, regen and throughput work together. So our spec requires a bit more spirit than others, who cares?

Call me a pessimist if you want - might be because I've been forced into playing disc so long that I've actually started to lose any faith in the holy tree. We'll see in 4.3 - it sounds better than the present at least.

Nothing in the current content requires Disc. Holy works perfectly fine, give it a try before you dismiss it.
The only true leg up Disc had was Barrier, and that's being taken care of with tomorrow's patch.

[Afflictid]

Besides, spirit *IS* a good stat, it does more for us than other classes/specs. If you don't like the Holy priest's dependence on it so much, swap specs or class. Going into Cataclysm, it was pretty obvious that Spirit would be a key stat for the Holy tree again. I wouldn't consider it a hindrance at all, regen and throughput work together. So our spec requires a bit more spirit than others, who cares?

It is a hindrance because there aren't any heroic upgrades with spirit on them for some pieces. So you have less spellpower than other healers.

[nobodysbaby]

I'm the worst pessimist out there, I promise. Gosh how I whined and over analyzed my way throughout this xpack, swearing every raidnight that I have to play Disc.

Lucky was the wrong choice of words, "interesting" is much better. Druids (in particular) don't want more Spirit, they want output stats already pre-last-raid-tier.

Hpriest still can make their own choice very much, depending on playstyle and fight, combine Haste/Spirit/Mastery in every imaginable way without it becoming "wrong".

That is balanced to me. That is what I meant by "lucky", we have options.

And a Pessimists Edit:
Too bad all this was pretty much wasted for half year cause we lacked a raid CD. There. Better?

[Themos]

It is a hindrance because there aren't any heroic upgrades with spirit on them for some pieces. So you have less spellpower than other healers.

The loss of Int isn't worth locking yourself in non-heroic gear and the lack of spirit on the heroic pieces is offset partially by reforging back into it.
Go ahead and try it out. Despite my non-spirit upgrades, I've been able to squeeze out a Fheal/Gheal ratio ~ 2:1 on Baleric as Holy and I lasted for over 5 mins doing so. Yes, we still need more Spirit than Disc or Resto druids and yes there are limitations in our gearing options, but it's still very fine.

The sky isn't falling, and as of tomorrow Holy is getting some noticeable nudges that will make things even better.

---------- Post added 2011-11-28 at 04:13 PM ----------

And a Pessimists Edit:
Too bad all this was pretty much wasted for half year cause we lacked a raid CD. There. Better?

Divine Hymn is going to get a knee jerk nerf within a weak.

[nobodysbaby]

I don't think they should, Themos.

Compared to Discs PWB wich can easily mitigate 25(ppl)x100k(dmg)x2(pulses)x0,20(mitigated percent)=1,000,000 dmg (possibly this number could be duplicated with the AoE dmg going in DS), and with Discs current "supreme" mana management and output with the ability to heal tank/raid with no limitations, I think it is very fine with Hymn as it is.

Time to put mitigated numbers into WoL/Recount etc. Shouldn't be hard to calculate, it's just numbers.

Next Pessimists Edit:
Tbh, I think it's time to nerf ALL raid CD's, they are much too strong compared to healing itself.

[Themos]

I don't think it should get a nerf either, but a lot of people don't read notes ahead of time and I can very easily see an outcry from clueless resto druids that get a double wammy of nerfs and realizing our hymn is better than their tranq to boot. Druid QQ on the WoW forums has always been fierce and emo.

Regardless, I'm very much looking forward to tomorrow's patch. The holy changes are gravy, I'm more interested in:
1) Running non-Zandalar heroics
2) Transmogging my gear, I have the Windchanneller set that I spent a whole weekend grinding up The Consortium for. >.>


edit -- srsly though, MoP would be a good time to nerf the hell out of raid cooldowns. I welcome the purge

[nobodysbaby]

Yeah, that's why I wanted a combo of more healing% taken/healing, not only a flat out healing increase, it just stings too much in peoples eyes...

Would be cooler to have 20% healing increase to the whole raid for the duration, instead of the 100% healing increase to Holy Hymn, or sumthing.

Yepp, it will be fun with a change, but I already ate candy before dinner.. /sigh