New ilevel requirements

[CrossKeeper]

I have been a WoW player for many years, but due to real life I am no longer an active raider and have become more of a hardcore casual. By hardcore casual I mean that I still play alot, but dont have the schedule to support a raid team.

Ok so what I want to talk about is the ilevel requirements for dungeons. Since I started playing in BC I liked the idea of having to earn Revered status before entering a dungeon. That pretty much assured that you had all the possible gear from the normal instances. This was changed to honored and all my alts rejoiced ( I play every class and 6 of 10 are 85). In Wrath it was pretty much just max level and healer heal pools supported this. Now in Cata we have an ilevel check.

While I think that ability>gear it was simple enough to get to the Heroic and ZA/ZG requirements with patch 4.1. With the coming of 4.2 I am excited to be able to easily get all my toons in at least 2piece tier11 plus plenty of other good gear to get me up to the ZA/ZG level on my more seldomly played toons.

So what I want to see in an increase in minimum ilevel to do heroics and ZA/ZG when 4.2 goes live otherwise people will just grab one piece of tier gear and be able to que for heroics with quest green/blues and will make heroics and ZA/ZG even harder.

I enjoy doing dungeons on different toons and doing heroics because they force people to CC, think, and in general actually do more than just stand and nuke. As a casual hardcore I am now going to be swamped with people that have not done all the dungeons on regular level and are clueless when it comes to heroics.

I am simply asking for people to put in sometime in game (unfortunatly measured by ilevel) before moving on to more difficult content. This would be nice for guys/girls like me who enjoy playing the harder content without the full raid experience and hate undergeared persons in pugs.

On a side note I am in a leveling guild so yes I do pug alot.

[Deleted]

I'm really sorry to say but the current state of LFD is disgusting. Ele shammies in strength and agi gear, no-one going for their armour type specialisation, people in resillience gemmed PVP gear. It's hideous. It basically makes fairly simple instances hard because people reach the desired Ilevel and, forgetting gems, enchants, and much more, immediately queue.

It will get FAR worse in 4.2 as more people will head back to the game. The only solution is to form your own groups from your guild/trade, form them smartly, gearcheck people and make your pug seem attractive to sensible minded people who are in trade.

[Oshkoshbgosh]

While people reminisce about the reputation requirement for BC instances, I remember having a lot of awful groups during that expansion too.

[ihateyouall]

I'm really sorry to say but the current state of LFD is disgusting. Ele shammies in strength and agi gear, no-one going for their armour type specialisation, people in resillience gemmed PVP gear. It's hideous. It basically makes fairly simple instances hard because people reach the desired Ilevel and, forgetting gems, enchants, and much more, immediately queue.

It will get FAR worse in 4.2 as more people will head back to the game. The only solution is to form your own groups from your guild/trade, form them smartly, gearcheck people and make your pug seem attractive to sensible minded people who are in trade.

Of course, people did that before dungeon finder. I remember coming across a mage wearing some strength items and had a +weapon damage enchant on their staff. Of course, some people will use any gear to "trick" the system, others just... are really that ignorant.

[Deleted]

Oh my, I forgot about the old entrance req from TBC. Bring back rep entrance req.

[ardipithecus11]

Of course, people did that before dungeon finder. I remember coming across a mage wearing some strength items and had a +weapon damage enchant on their staff. Of course, some people will use any gear to "trick" the system, others just... are really that ignorant.

Theres no cloth with strength lol.

And well, people will always find a way around the ilvl requirement. Yes, it is helpful to an extent but there will always be people trying to outsmart the system who just make everyone's, including their time in heroics fairly difficult.

[BurningStick]

Theres no cloth with strength lol.

*cough* Strength necklaces, rings, trinkets, cloaks and weapons *cough* So it is possible for a mage to wear strength items

[CrossKeeper]

It will get FAR worse in 4.2 as more people will head back to the game. The only solution is to form your own groups from your guild/trade, form them smartly, gearcheck people and make your pug seem attractive to sensible minded people who are in trade.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you but the short quote of "sensible minded people who are in trade" made me chuckle.

I have been thinking about the desired levels I would like and 340 for heroics and 349 for ZA/ZG would be ok

[Roose]

Theres no cloth with strength lol.

Cloth gear used to be random enchant and there was plenty of it w/ strength.

The average ilvl solution was better than nothing. I found out how much harder it was to cheat the system as a clothie just recently. Basically, any plate wearer can make ilvl requirements w/ 75% non-plate fillers. Flawed? Yes.

Will any of this change? Not likely.

I was a huge fan of the reputation requirements for heroics. BC heroics in general were the best by far. It pretty much ensured that people had done all of the normals a few times before going into heroics. Not the case anymore though because you can get so much rep from quests alone.

[Deleted]

I agree with you but the short quote of "sensible minded people who are in trade" made me chuckle.

I have been thinking about the desired levels I would like and 340 for heroics and 349 for ZA/ZG would be ok

Basically the Ilevel guarantees nothing, it almost encourages people to get ANY high Ilevel gear even if it's PVP, bad stats, etc etc. The ilevel requirement basically made it worse. The only way to make a group is to gearcheck your people before you run it.

[Nume]

I agree with you but the short quote of "sensible minded people who are in trade" made me chuckle.

I have been thinking about the desired levels I would like and 340 for heroics and 349 for ZA/ZG would be ok

So what you're recommending is that people need to have better gear than they can possibly have drop from regulars to enter heroics (yes I realize they can get items from JP, but that isn't included in the "dungeon progression" line)? And better gear than can possibly drop from heroics to get into ZA/ZG? I mean with a 349 ilvl, you would hardly need anything from za/zg... Also, someone who has greens and buys an epic to increase their ilvl, would have just as good of overall stats as someone who has the same ilvl but a mixture of blues instead. If anything they'd be better than the blue person, due to the set bonus (if they bought t11). Gear is never the deciding issue of whether people will suck at heroics anyways.

[mystik]

first off PVP gear should have NO ITEM LEVEL. PVP gear SUCKS for zg/za and raids yet you constantly see idiots with pvp gear on cheating the system and acting like they are good.

it's usually the plate but you always see some rettard who wears half tank gear, part dps gear, part int gear and they don't realize how to gear or just don't care. I've even see warriors wearing int gear.

item level should be based off what you have for the spec you are queuing for. int/tank gear won't count for dps and etc. idiots ruin it fore everyone else.

[Agallochh]

No thanks. It sucked having to grind factions on all my alts just to do the heroic. It sucked even more getting a full group of people for a heroic and then finding out when the scrub Warrior Tank couldn't zone in that he either wasn't revered, or didn't purchase the key. NOOOOOOO THANKS.

It's bad enough that I have to grind Sethekk halls over and over just to get honored so I can have a chance at Anzu daily. I've done that for 5 characters already, and I wouldn't even be doing it if BC heroics still required Revered rep.

---------- Post added 2011-06-13 at 11:04 PM ----------

first off PVP gear should have NO ITEM LEVEL.

Good luck getting cataclysm enchants on your ilvl: 0 gear.

[Mammoth]

iLvL is just a basic protection against newly dinged noobs thinking that they can walk into HCs. What it does is tell them that HCs are harder content so you should do other stuff first. What it doesn't do is account for skill. If a player is not up to doing the content it is still up to him to decide to pull out or the team to ask him to leave. In BC I had the rep, but no real experience or gear. The couple of groups I got into at the start were bad on the very first pull. As such I had to pull out. Grinding the rep for keys did nothing to stop this from happening.

Also, PvP gear is comparable to PvE gear. Its not as good because you're missing a whole secondary stat, but its not trash that needs 0 ilvl. It will still have a whole chunk of Int/Str/Agi and a single secondary stat. A guy in full PvP epic will be superior to a guy in 333 blues.

[Deleted]

first off PVP gear should have NO ITEM LEVEL. PVP gear SUCKS for zg/za and raids yet you constantly see idiots with pvp gear on cheating the system and acting like they are good.

it's usually the plate but you always see some rettard who wears half tank gear, part dps gear, part int gear and they don't realize how to gear or just don't care. I've even see warriors wearing int gear.

item level should be based off what you have for the spec you are queuing for. int/tank gear won't count for dps and etc. idiots ruin it fore everyone else.

I completely agree with the ilvl based on gear for your spec but pvp gear is not a problem like you make it out to be. The only spec that should not be wearing pvp items is a tank, rest can do fine with pvp items.

Here's a list of changes to the ilvl requirement that should prevent stupid/lazy people from entering :
- if tank is selected any item that has resilience or int counts as ilvl 0
- if tank is selected any item (except trinkets) that does not have dodge, parry or mastery counts as ilvl 0
- if dps is selected any item that has dodge or parry counts as ilvl 0
- any item that is not of the highest armor quality (cloth, leather, mail, plate) you can wear counts as ilvl 0
- any item (except trinkets) that does not have your primary stat (strength, agility, int) counts as ilvl 0

[Mammoth]

Firstly, I don't queue in my tanking gear. I queue in my PvP gear.


- if tank is selected any item that has resilience or int counts as ilvl 0
- if tank is selected any item (except trinkets) that does not have dodge, parry or mastery counts as ilvl 0
+ So I'm better off using my Wrath tanking items than a Cata dps item with a huge boost to stamina.

- if dps is selected any item that has dodge or parry counts as ilvl 0
+ Same as before, dodge/parry gear still has hit/exp. Its not completely useless.

- any item that is not of the highest armor quality (cloth, leather, mail, plate) you can wear counts as ilvl 0
+ Its a big hit. Don't think I can argue too much here. But it should probably be a % of your total reduced. If I've got 1 bit of cloth on my druid, I might as well have 5 bits of cloth if its better than the leather I have.

- any item (except trinkets) that does not have your primary stat (strength, agility, int) counts as ilvl 0
+ BiS Warrior tanking ranged slot at the moment is an Agility Bow. There are always exceptions. Enforcing these rules gives little room for using brains. You might as well have gear stamped with a class and spec on them.


I think limiting the gear is a bad idea. It isn't taking into proper account of the benefits that exceptions to the rules can have and a piece of gear is never completely useless.


A far better solution is for the playerbase to actually take some responsibility for their own actions. Look at the performance of players and decide that the content isn't suitable for yourself or them in a friendly way. The ilvl is not there to give you a pat on the back and tell you that the dungeon will be easy for you. I don't see why Blizzard need to tweak the ilvl system at all, its serving its purpose already. The only thing that isn't working is the playerbase's ability to act in a polite way to each other.

[Stabatya]

I see alot of complaints on this but tbh, rarely see it ingame. I always inspect the tank and heals (assuming it isnt me, which it generally is) and cant recall one time during a heroic i thought someone was cheating. There was one case in ZA where a war tank was using a agi trinket... I left the group during a pull and didnt cop the debuff, win win.

[ib_di]

I think the most sensible suggestion that I have read is to have resilience not count towards the PvE ilevel check (a la ~352 blue PvP gear would only work out to be ~346, as the 6 item levels of resilience aren't taken into effect / same for 365 epic PvP vs 359 PvE epics) - not gaming breaking, and also makes almost no difference, just stops from massive inflation from a couple of pieces (mostly to counteract subpar gear in other slots - think a green item carried by a PvP blue/purple)

[Mammoth]

I see alot of complaints on this but tbh, rarely see it ingame. I always inspect the tank and heals (assuming it isnt me, which it generally is) and cant recall one time during a heroic i thought someone was cheating. There was one case in ZA where a war tank was using a agi trinket... I left the group during a pull and didnt cop the debuff, win win.

Which Agi trinket? Tia's Grace is a dungeon BiS trinket for Paladins, and pretty good for other tanks too. If it was better than his other trinkets, then its good, Agi gives dodge (until the end of next week at least). This is the problem with the people who want to make the requirements for HCs stricter, some just don't know about the true value of stats.

When I tank 5s, I use dps trinkets for the threat boost. If its looking like I'm taking more damage than is comfortable for the healer, I then equip the avoidance trinkets.

[Deleted]

Firstly, I don't queue in my tanking gear. I queue in my PvP gear.


- if tank is selected any item that has resilience or int counts as ilvl 0
- if tank is selected any item (except trinkets) that does not have dodge, parry or mastery counts as ilvl 0
+ So I'm better off using my Wrath tanking items than a Cata dps item with a huge boost to stamina.

- if dps is selected any item that has dodge or parry counts as ilvl 0
+ Same as before, dodge/parry gear still has hit/exp. Its not completely useless.

- any item that is not of the highest armor quality (cloth, leather, mail, plate) you can wear counts as ilvl 0
+ Its a big hit. Don't think I can argue too much here. But it should probably be a % of your total reduced. If I've got 1 bit of cloth on my druid, I might as well have 5 bits of cloth if its better than the leather I have.

- any item (except trinkets) that does not have your primary stat (strength, agility, int) counts as ilvl 0
+ BiS Warrior tanking ranged slot at the moment is an Agility Bow. There are always exceptions. Enforcing these rules gives little room for using brains. You might as well have gear stamped with a class and spec on them.


I think limiting the gear is a bad idea. It isn't taking into proper account of the benefits that exceptions to the rules can have and a piece of gear is never completely useless.


A far better solution is for the playerbase to actually take some responsibility for their own actions. Look at the performance of players and decide that the content isn't suitable for yourself or them in a friendly way. The ilvl is not there to give you a pat on the back and tell you that the dungeon will be easy for you. I don't see why Blizzard need to tweak the ilvl system at all, its serving its purpose already. The only thing that isn't working is the playerbase's ability to act in a polite way to each other.

My reasoning is not based on how good items are or not, it's based on one thing. Should I be using these or not?
In all the dungeons I've done I've seen people guilty of all these and they all had really strange ideas about stats.
- ret paladin rolling need on a tanking item just because it had more strength, tank left
- tank with 6 resilience items complaining about the healing sitting down too much for mana, healer left after calling him a fucking retard (we didn't even get to the first boss & couldn't kick him, after a wipe we did)
- lots of shamans/hunters using leather & one of them even complained he couldn't roll need on an epic leather chest that dropped... *facepalm*

Main reasons why I'm saying they should count as 0 to drag your ilvl down as much as possible is to prevent people from rolling for them in the first place. Would you click need on something once you realise it will lower your ilvl?

I also know that a lot of tanks sometimes use dps trinkets and thats why I put "except trinkets" in the second line.
Besides that is it really that hard to get a tanking item in every slot? I don't think so...I never had a problem getting to heroic ilvl with the right items for my spec.