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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Mastery is only the "best" stat, when all you're doing is bubbles.

    Raid healing, haste wins. Tank healing, haste and crit both win. Mastery scales terribly with Aegis, and only shines with Power Word: Shield.
    when i heal tank i go for sos build and have shield on tank whenever its possible, and most healing done on tank comes from shields, so i wouldnt say mastery is worse than haste or crit for tank healing. and just to clarify i dont do just bubbles.

    worked like that in bot/bwd on heroic modes and on shannox in firelands, unfortunately on other firelands bosses i had to heal raid, and dont know about rag fight yet, maybe it differs then or perhaps it depends on playstyle.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by babylon View Post
    when i heal tank i go for sos build and have shield on tank whenever its possible, and most healing done on tank comes from shields, so i wouldnt say mastery is worse than haste or crit for tank healing. and just to clarify i dont do just bubbles.
    Are you three healing with either a Paladin, or a Druid rolling Lifeblooms on your target? Because most healing from a tank healing Discipline Priest should be coming from Greater Heal. Not a chance that Shield should be "most healing done on tank".
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
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    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post

    200% crit heals! Huzzah. For a raid healer, this is meaningless. But for a tank healer, it suddenly makes each and every Aegis more effective.
    All heals crit...even Dots, this is extremely effective for a raid healer too. Duh

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Trilom View Post
    All heals crit...even Dots, this is extremely effective for a raid healer too. Duh
    If Prayer of Healing was redesigned to be a 5-player Chain Heal, and ignore "party" divisions, sure, I'd say it's "extremely effective for a raid healer". But two people critting in your 5-player Prayer, you still need to cast it on those two people again, to hit the other three, because the spell can't take advantage of it and move onto others like Chain Heal or Light of Dawn could.

    Crit being upped to 200% being meaningless for raid healers is more true for Discipline than it is for even Holy Priests.

    Duh.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  5. #65
    I think disc is in a uncomfortable spot, not that its terrible it just doesn't do any roll the best, ;/ till then im going to play my hpally, and so far with only 3 bosses down ALL hpallys can do is tank heal and we do it better then disc, so ur outa luck tank healing. Druid healer is still pretty dirty and even more so for aoe, so ur not the best for aoe. I think at this point you want to just except it and either hope for a change or go holy
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedail View Post
    I think I'm close to understanding this thread. . ./places tinfoil hat squarely on head. . .Ah, yes. I see now. . . /tinfoil hat off, approaching reality once more

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by lifteez View Post
    all hpallys can do is tank heal and we do it better then disc
    Citation needed.

    Both are excellent at tank healing with different tools for the job.

    EDIT: I somehow managed to delete my post before this one. Oh well. Here's (roughly) what it said before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Are you three healing with either a Paladin, or a Druid rolling Lifeblooms on your target? Because most healing from a tank healing Discipline Priest should be coming from Greater Heal. Not a chance that Shield should be "most healing done on tank".
    This.

    Your number one healing spell might be PW:S in the logs because that number will be padded by any shields you throw on the raid to help the other healers save someone and the like.
    If you're looking at heals purely on the tank, then PW:S likely won't fare so well.

    Increasing mastery might increase your meter numbers but it might not be the best stat to do your job better, which is keeping the tank alive.
    Last edited by Bruen; 2011-07-03 at 03:44 PM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by lifteez View Post
    I think disc is in a uncomfortable spot, not that its terrible it just doesn't do any roll the best, ;/ till then im going to play my hpally, and so far with only 3 bosses down ALL hpallys can do is tank heal and we do it better then disc, so ur outa luck tank healing.
    Actually, Discipline Priests do Tank Healing better than Paladins. It's Beacon Cleave that gets Paladins their spot because the average fight needs more than one tank, and the fact they can't raid heal cements them in the role.

    Sorry that you can't play that role well as a Priest, but you're sorely mistaken.
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2011-07-03 at 03:43 PM.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    If Prayer of Healing was redesigned to be a 5-player Chain Heal, and ignore "party" divisions, sure, I'd say it's "extremely effective for a raid healer". But two people critting in your 5-player Prayer, you still need to cast it on those two people again, to hit the other three, because the spell can't take advantage of it and move onto others like Chain Heal or Light of Dawn could.

    Crit being upped to 200% being meaningless for raid healers is more true for Discipline than it is for even Holy Priests.

    Duh.
    Crit isn't really meaningless for raid healing, because even if it only hits say two people in a group, wg/efflor/lod/etc will help balance out the health on the three people it didn't hit. It's still not particularly good, but far from meaningless. If you are completely solo raid healing then yes, it's pretty worthless, but this shouldn't happen.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Are you three healing with either a Paladin, or a Druid rolling Lifeblooms on your target? Because most healing from a tank healing Discipline Priest should be coming from Greater Heal. Not a chance that Shield should be "most healing done on tank".
    For once I slightly disagree with you, Kel. I too run SoS build with 21 (ish) mastery and 19% haste raid buffed and more often than not, I can get away tank healing with just PW:S, HEAL (yes, the slow, efficient one) and Penance. Gheal is only used when I know burst is expected or when the tank drops to 60%. Exactly the same way I healed 8/13hc last tier and my tanks don't die. Also note, I'm not being carried by other tank healers, usually just me and a Hpala with myself doing comfortably upwards of 60% total healing/absorbs on the tank (this also includes maybe 10/15% raid splash healing also, CH, WG, etc).

    With the 200% crit buff to healing and approaching 35% crit rate on the tank raid buffed with WS debuff, DA is often third on my 'spell' list behind PW:S and Gheal.

    Yes, I could spec Train of Thought and spam Gheal with bigger DA procs, but it's simply not needed. 33k PW:S absorbs and a 2.2s Heal cast of 13k or 26k crit is often plenty enough.

    The only time I use more Gheals than Heals on the tank is when raid damage is fairly large in which case I tend to rotate PoH on a group, Gheal on the tank, then PoH again just to be safer.

    I should note that this approach worked for 90% of fights in T11, and first 4 bosses in T12 - Baleroc which we're working on ofc needs more Gheal, but that goes without saying for gimic fights like that.

    I'm flexible enough a healer to know the limitations of what my class can heal and for the most part, Gheal tot spam simply isn't required and PW:S can be top. I also realise these statements are only true for content I've cleared to date and I still have 4/7 left to kill. It's just like people who claimed ATT/AA specs weren't good enough for heroic content in T11, but some Discs were comfortably doing 30% of their healing through it AND pulling their weight in their role. But anyway, food for thought. People shouldn't, in my opinion, get caught up in a 'given' way to heal when flexibility is much more important.

  10. #70
    I guess there are two ways: spamming Heal and using PW:S as soon as the debuff wears off or using a lot of GH and PW:S only when Rapture is ready.
    Both ways can keep a tank alive without other healers help, shouldn't be much difference hps- and hpm-wise; it's just the basic "rota" anyway, when the boss starts hitting like a truck you can easily switch to a style with more hps.

    But as soon as the tank dmg gets brutal you'll spam Gh.
    Last edited by Holy Schnappi; 2011-07-04 at 10:51 AM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinn View Post
    Any feedbacks of Baleroc as Disc?
    It's very good.
    PWS scales with the heal buff.
    Penance stacks sparks per each tick.

    Retired raider coming back for WoD.
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  12. #72
    The only limitation on Baleroc is DA stacking to a maximum of the priest's maximum health and not scaling with the tank's health or with Vital Flame, but damage on tanks is fairly constant so the DA is used up fairly regularly. It's not a major issue.

  13. #73
    Just a random rogue poking his nose in here and speaking completely off topic but what about the idea of having mana cost of spells go up as you get more spellpower. So the bigger the heal the more mana you pay, scaling to prevent the wrath endless mana problem. So every point of int raises your heals but also raises their cost? Is this a dumb idea? Its late and your thread was on the front page so I thought I would throw my idea out to you peeps, disc priests being the smartest of the healers...

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Schnappi View Post
    It's not that I doubt this statement, I feel way more comfortable with a certain amount of haste.
    But I'd like to know all the reasons which speak for haste and against crit for raidhealing - it seems that escpecially when it comes to 25man many (raid)healers tend to stack crit since 4.2 because of the countless intelligent heals like CH, CoH or WG to even out RNG, stating that you're not healing alone and others can compensate for your variance.
    Even in 10man many value crit + mastery over haste + mastery and state that you only need haste when you otherwise (with other stats) couldn't heal the dmg, PW:S + Penance + GH should be enough to burst, disc still has PI and haste is only needed when people fail and so on...

    I'd like to hear other opinions and reasons. Something beyond "because I feel comfortable with it/ as long as we kill the boss everything is fine". The latter is of course true however the question is how much you can contribute to killing the boss.
    Seems like the german community is pretty much nuts for crit.
    My two cents.

    Crit is random, Haste is always there.
    Even with smart heal smoothing things Crit is prone to more overheal in the end.

    But more to the point.
    You need 180 Crit rating for 1% Crit, only 128 Haste rating for 1% Haste.
    Each 1% Crit is about 0.5% less effective than the last. First one is +1% output, second one 0.995% and so on ...
    As you should have about 20/25% from intel/talents before stacking/reforging for Crit, you pay about 180 points for 0.88% output.
    Hast is linear, 1% haste is 1% output.
    So 180 Crit gives you about 0.88% more output, 180 Haste about 1.4% more.
    This difference is more or less compensated by DA proc on single target heal but not all while raid healing with POH.
    Now Crit is mana neutral when your mana consumption scales with your healing with Haste.
    And it gives some crazy burst healing (+100% heal and giant DA = Holly Molly)

    But in the end Crit and Haste are good stats for single target heal spam (haste is a tad bit better if you have low mastery but is less mana efficient).
    Haste is a bit better than crit for PWS use assuming you start casting as soon as the GCD refresh.
    Haste annihilates Crit for raid healing, nearly one a two for one ratio.

    So Crit is fine if you tank heal and nearly never have to raid heal.
    But as soon as you have mix assignement you should go for haste rather than crit as long as you can keep up with the regen.
    Last edited by Reinhard; 2011-07-04 at 12:13 PM.

  15. #75
    I'm still stuck on the Haste and Mastery talk for 25 mans. If we take a look at SimulationCraft (i can't post the link..) it's showing that PoH with Haste overpowers Mastery bubble spamming at a lower mana consumption. However, how much of that is overhealing and how nerfed does that make our Divine Aegis and is that taking DA into account?

    Last night we were trying to take down Alysrazor 25N and I was running Haste while our other Disc priest was running Mastery. She was doing far less DAs than I was but hers were twice as effective. I also noticed that her overheal was in the 25% area while mine was 40-45%.
    I'd post a log of the fight but I can't yet...

    I am just not convinced. Am I missing something?

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhard View Post
    Each 1% Crit is about 0.5% less effective than the last. First one is +1% output, second one 0.995% and so on ...
    As you should have about 20/25% from intel/talents before stacking/reforging for Crit, you pay about 180 points for 0.88% output.
    Hast is linear, 1% haste is 1% output.
    So 180 Crit gives you about 0.88% more output, 180 Haste about 1.4% more.
    This is wrong. The fundamental formula for heal throughtput (ignoring DA for now, and trying to avoid calculus) is HPS = (Base + Coefficient * Spellpower) * (1 + Haste) * (1 + Crit) * <constant multipliers>. If you hold one of crit/haste constant and let the other vary, HPS will scale linearly. From the point of view of raw throughput, the only difference in Crit and Haste is the difference in rating scales that you already discussed: it takes 40% more crit rating to get 1% crit than haste rating to get 1% haste. DA increases crit scaling to narrow the gap between crit and haste somewhat, where "somewhat" depends on your mastery rating and whether you are talking about single-target heals or PoH.

    The math being wrong doesn't contradict the truth of your conclusions. Haste is a little better for tank healing, crit rating will give you 80% of haste rating's throughput without increasing mana consumption. Haste rating is far better for PWS, since 100% of the cast time scales with haste but only 1/6 of the output (the glyph heal) can crit. Since PoH always triggers DA, it scales more poorly with crit than do single-target heals. As the majority of our raid-healing output comes from PWS and PoH, crit rating falls behind, scaling at maybe 60-65% of the throughput of haste rating.

    Math done on the spot, scaling numbers pulled from Simulationcraft.org Priest Heal T12.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyTheRetard View Post
    Since PoH always triggers DA, it scales more poorly with crit than do single-target heals. As the majority of our raid-healing output comes from PWS and PoH, crit rating falls behind, scaling at maybe 60-65% of the throughput of haste rating..
    I'm not disagreeing, but you do have to figure the double-dip for DA & crits on PoH. With that taken into account, I believe it should scale the same as single target heals, but would be an unwise investment assuming DA isn't always absorbed on PoH (and the general nature of the relationship between crit and raid healing to begin with).

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-] View Post
    I'm not disagreeing, but you do have to figure the double-dip for DA & crits on PoH. With that taken into account, I believe it should scale the same as single target heals, but would be an unwise investment assuming DA isn't always absorbed on PoH (and the general nature of the relationship between crit and raid healing to begin with).
    Edit: I am wrong, wrong, wrong. Something really weird is happening with PoH crits. From in-game testing: a non-crit PoH healed for 6547 with 2519 DA (38.48% of the heal as predicted from my mastery), crit heals 13050 with 10042 DA (76.95%). The description I give for the interaction of crit and DA on PoH is incorrect, and so is your statement that PoH double-dips DA. In fact, PoH crits are getting double the DA percentage on a heal that is double the size, so crits get four times the DA of non-crits!

    Quote Originally Posted by Casey
    PoH doesn't double-dip DA on crits compared to single-target heals. The difference between crit and non-crit DA for PoH is half of the difference that a single-target heal would generate since the single-target heal gets 0 DA on a non-crit.

    Say you have enough mastery to get 33% Shield Discipline, so that your DA is 30% * (1 + 33%) = 40% of the heal amount. Your single-target heal crits have an effective multiplier of 200% * (1 + 40%) = 280%. Your PoH that heals for 100% noncrit scales to 140%, with crits to 280%, so the total heal + DA is double the heal + DA of a noncrit; effectively PoH+DA scales to 200% on crits vs. the 280% crits of single-target heals+DA.
    Last edited by CaseyTheRetard; 2011-07-04 at 11:21 PM.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyTheRetard View Post
    The description I give for the interaction of crit and DA on PoH is incorrect, and so is your statement that PoH double-dips DA. In fact, PoH crits are getting double the DA percentage on a heal that is double the size, so crits get four times the DA of non-crits!
    I'm sorry for not clarifying, but I had thought it was known that the "double-dip" refers to the DA percentage itself, not merely double the non-crit.

    For clarification:

    Pre-4.2:

    Non-crit-> 1000PoH+300DA (1,000*1.3) = 1,300 (130%)
    Crit_> 1500PoH + 900DA (1,500*1.6) = 2,400 (240%) [or 185% of non-crit+DA]

    Post-4.2:

    Non-crit-> 1000PoH+300DA (1,000*1.3) = 1,300 (130%)
    Crit_> 2000PoH + 1,200DA (2,000*1.6) = 3,200 (320%) [or 246% of non-crit+DA]

    It scales the same as normal heals, not in the sense that 260% = 320%, but in the ratios were maintained from pre-4.2.

  20. #80
    Okay guys, I went online and did some field tests just to verify the double dip mathematics and can verify that it does work as intended. For the sake of space I'll post the averages in each Trial. The Trials consist of 10 non-crit casts and 10 Crit Casts, how much they healed for, how much the DA was, and the actual % of shield addition.
    Stats:
    No buffs
    16.14 Mastery = 40%
    11.97 Crit%
    DA proc = .3*.4 = .42 = 42%

    Theoretical Control (What I thought would happen)
    Non-Crit----------------------Crit
    Heal/DA/%-------------------Heal/DA/%

    1000/420/42---------------2000/1680/84 [(.30 + .30) * .40] Actual percentage of healing increase = 259%

    Test 1 Average
    6087/2562/42--------------12224/10293/84 Actual percentage of healing increase = 260%

    Test 2 Average
    6025/2536/42--------------12222/10291/84 Actual percentage of healing increase = 262%

    Test 3 Average
    6046/2548/42--------------12243/10309/84 Actual percentage of healing increase = 262%

    All decimals are rounded and two results were discarded due to a distraction. As a result of these tests, it seems that the entire mastery bonus becomes factored in on the double dipped result as predicted using casey's sample number and also proves the portion about Spiritus's double dip on DA.

    Now that we know this, and we know the type of gear that is dropping in Firelands, is it possible that this is completely intended so that Disc can become more reliant on a Mastery/Crit combo for theoretical efficiency versus pure throughput? A lack of Spirit-based gear options on cloth seems to point to that, but let's look at the secondaries.
    Added mastery on all gear that is non-heroic and has spirit (sans belt) -----1134
    Added Crit Rating on all gear that is non-heroic and has spirit (sans belt) --342
    Added Haste on all gear that is non-heroic and has spirit (sans belt) --------1161 (main and off) 1082 (staff)

    We get about 6383 from gear alone and about 7072 with correct gems and enchanting (Thanks Mr. Robot) giving you ABOUT 19% crit chance with the small amount of crit rating on the gear. Haste would be at about 9.06% and Mastery would be at about 28% shield increase, making DA about 38% on regular heals and 74% on critical heals.

    BASED OFF THIS INFO, it's seems to me the best choice would be to weigh Int > Spi > Mastery > Haste == Crit for raid healing. I think it would be prudent to get the mastery percentage to a higher number through reforging haste and proper gemming then try to balance the need for haste and crit based on your own preference.

    Feel free to tear my math apart and make it better.
    Heck of first post *pwew*

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