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  1. #41
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1528723239

    The definitive topic on 10 versus 25 man and something that anyone who thought 10 was easier (pre-nerf) should read to see how wrong they are.

    I don't really have a dog in this fight so to speak but I think the issue at heart is essentially pride, 25 man used to be the more difficult, far and away and now the difference is marginal with a slightly higher difficulty leaning more towards 10 man, everyone just needs to take some deep breaths, calm down and raid whatever they like more.

  2. #42
    Warchief Szemere's Avatar
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    25man, harder to organise.
    10man, easier if you take the 10 best people from the 25-man group, because the average skill of the group would be higher.
    10man, a bit harder on most bosses if you would make 2 10man groups out of that one 25man group.
    Now how to finally let our officers understand that switching to 25 is impossible until we get at least another 10 people of equal quality as our 10man group....
    Ex-GM and Raidleader of the MoX Purple Kittens Raidteam on Twisting Nether (formerly Grim Batol), RIP, Winter 2010 - Spring 2013.
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  3. #43
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    10man is less forgiving than 25man.

    Less buff coverage/synergy.
    Less available flexibility in role.
    1 battle res, compared to 3 in 25 man
    And that's the plain maths of it .. 1 bad player is 10% of the raid, not 4%.

    In a 25 man, it takes 4 fails before the raid is down a man, compared to only 2 fails in a 10 man.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grungit View Post
    In a 25 man, it takes 4 fails before the raid is down a man, compared to only 2 fails in a 10 man.
    Wait, wait, whaaaaat?

    Also

    10 man, 1 good player = 10% of the raid
    25 man, 1 good player = 4% of the raid

    SEE WUUUT I DID THEREEE? It goes both ways ^^


    @Marquessa All that topic showed was a man that knows absolutely nothing what he is talking about, yes, 10 mans have less dps per raid spot, however, the 10 man bosses also have LESS HP, so you do not need as much dps.

    Also, he said something like "10 man only give 70 VP and 25 man give 90 VP and nobody knows why".
    Ehrm, blizzard officially stated this and gave reasons behind these changes, that it would be a cookie for 25 man raiders so that they would gain some additonal reward for bothering gather 25 players.

    The OP of that thread is completely clueless.

    I mean, it is very obvious while raiding 10 man that the bosses have alot less hp then the 25 man counterparts divided by 2.5.
    When we downed Halfus 25 HC, we went in the same week with our BLUE GEARED alts and managed to down him with ease in 10 man ( Yes, this was pre-nerf ). Our first pull we wiped on the drakes, on our second pull we got him down to 20% and the third pull was a kill. Our hunter was using a 346 bow together with an average item level 344 and got ranked at World 2ND for 10 man Heroic Halfus ( However this was very early on so there were not that many logs up for 10 man heroic halfus, so there was not much competetion, but still ), we were surprised how easy this fight was that everyone claimed required 3 tanks and 4 healers. If I remember correctly we used 3 tanks and 3 healers, without any issues.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2011-06-16 at 11:52 AM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright View Post
    Is it just my opinion that 10man is way easier than 25man??


    we had 2weeks ago not enough player for our 25man raid, so we went 10man BoT and instantly got 2new first kills..council heroic and chogal heroic..
    this weeek we killed alakir in 10man heroic on the 6th attempt...so we did 12/13heroic in just 2weeks on ten man, and normaly we just raid 25man..

    so it seems that ten man heroic is definatly the freeloot version...what do you think??
    Let's see...
    You have been raiding hard at 25 man for some time now, so the mechanics of the fights are well know to everybody in the raid.
    When you go to 10 man, you already know what to do now and find yourself with more room to move (on the expense of other things). Normally you would go with 9 other players who even might be the 9 best raiders in your guild. Ofc you will find the content then really easy.
    It's normal in a 25 man raid scenario to have some people who just ain't as good as the others and these players will/can slow down progression.

    I remember myself from when I raided 25 man in WotLK. We had good raids ofc, but when our 10 man team set off, we blasted thru stuff so much faster and collected more achivements then the 25 man team could.

    When it comes to the question in it self, are 25 man harder then 10 man, well there will always be discussions about it. You have some benefits from doing 25 man raids over 10 man raids when you look at what everybody brings to the raid (more abilities/cooldowns that can be used to help out on fights). There are also some benefits from running a 10 man raid over a 25 man, more space to move in and easier to manage from a raid leaders point of view.

    So my point of view is that it all depends on who you ask. You have different "benefits" on both the 10 man and 25 man raids, it's just down to what you as a raider see as the "best benefit" that makes the difference

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Wait, wait, whaaaaat?

    Also

    10 man, 1 good player = 10% of the raid
    25 man, 1 good player = 4% of the raid

    SEE WUUUT I DID THEREEE? It goes both ways ^^
    25 man: A guy dies .. he gets combat ressed. Another guy dies .. he also gets combat ressed. A third guy dies .. he also gets combat ressed. A fourth guy dies, no combat resses left .. and your raid is down by 4%. Fifth guy dies and your raid is down by 8%.

    10 man: A guy dies .. he gets combat ressed. Another guy dies .. and your raid is down by 10%.

    As you can see, it's very easy to prove that 25 mans are more forgiving than 10 mans.

    And yes, I see what you did there. You conceded that a 25 man raid can succeed despite having more poor players.

  7. #47
    I am Murloc! Grym's Avatar
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    Depends on the fight.

    Halfus HC - 25man is piss, but 10man need a better interupt and co-ordination.

    Omnitron HC - 10man seems much easier to move about and avoid mechanics whereas 25man certain tron combo are complete chaos.

    25man do drop more goodies tho

  8. #48
    10 man used to be overtuned which is why it was much harder compared to 25 man. this has been fixed ages ago and now 25 man is harder on almost every figh(with some exeptions).

    (btw the argument of people dying is bullshit, there are many mechanics that are tuned down for 10 man wich leads to easier mechanics as a result.) its generaly speaking much easier to die on 25 man.
    N

  9. #49
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    Nah but really, if you managed to die in 10 man raid you are bad, there is just no way thats possible.

    In 25 man you have 2.5x more players that can screw up, leading to more deaths, it does not matter if a death means less, since there are MORE deaths, and more screw ups. Especially on a fight where 1 screw up = raid wipe, 25 man is alot less unforgiving. Lets take AC for example with kiting the frost orb.

    In 25 man, you have 25 people, if one of them fail, its a wipe.

    In 10 man you only have 10 people, if one of them fail its a wipe.

    There is a bigger chance that 1 of 25 fails then 1 of 10, so by pure logic, would not 25 man be insanely alot harder?
    No, it does not work that way.

    Some mechanics make 25 harder, some make 10 harder.
    Some stuff makes 25 man more forgiving, some make 10 man alot more forgiving, you can not just look at this black and white. Most stuff goes both ways.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proberly View Post
    If you have 25 skilled players, and 10 skilled players, the 25m version will be easier in most cases. Al'Akir hc is a fight which is noticably easier on 10 man due to the space, but that's pretty much it.

    If you have 10 skilled players, and do 25m, then obviously 10 man would be easier with the better players.

    Hard to see the logic OP?

    I'm not gonna buy that you had two 10 man groups and steamrolled heroics you couldn't do in 25 man. Sounds like bullshit to me.
    Exactly this. Al'Akir (perhaps AC is slightly easier on 10 because of spreading out but its a tough fight either way) is easier on 10 man, but Sinestra is harder on 10 man. Overall though the fights are pretty balanced (read: nerfed) at this point. It did take time for several of the heroic 10 fights to be correctly tuned so that they didn't have 25 man abilities/health but that has been done for months now. And in that time the heroic fights on both sizes have been nerfed. Whether you find 10 or 25 man easier or harder, at this time, is really just dependent on how many good players you have. If you have fewer skilled people in your 25 man then you'll find 10s easier. If you have more you'll find 25s easier, for the most part. Its easier to find 10 skilled people than 25, but its also easier to have a deep roster on 25 mans. It all balances out and which way to go will just depend on your particular server, your guild, your raiding population. Some fight mechanics will favor smaller raids, and others will favor larger raids (because of raid CDs, comps, etc) but this tier is pretty well balanced right now.

    Anyone trying to claim that one size is way easier or harder is just trying to puff up their own epeen for the content they do.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness81 View Post
    Exactly this. Al'Akir (perhaps AC is slightly easier on 10 because of spreading out but its a tough fight either way) is easier on 10 man, but Sinestra is harder on 10 man. Overall though the fights are pretty balanced (read: nerfed) at this point. It did take time for several of the heroic 10 fights to be correctly tuned so that they didn't have 25 man abilities/health but that has been done for months now. And in that time the heroic fights on both sizes have been nerfed. Whether you find 10 or 25 man easier or harder, at this time, is really just dependent on how many good players you have. If you have fewer skilled people in your 25 man then you'll find 10s easier. If you have more you'll find 25s easier, for the most part. Its easier to find 10 skilled people than 25, but its also easier to have a deep roster on 25 mans. It all balances out and which way to go will just depend on your particular server, your guild, your raiding population. Some fight mechanics will favor smaller raids, and others will favor larger raids (because of raid CDs, comps, etc) but this tier is pretty well balanced right now.

    Anyone trying to claim that one size is way easier or harder is just trying to puff up their own epeen for the content they do.
    I would not directly say 10 man sinestra was harder then 25 man, they both had their own fun mechanics, but we had no issue one shotting 10 man sinestra first time we went there ( However we had been farming 25 man sinestra ), however if the 10 man was so much harder, we should not have one shot it. Overall the damage output felt more extreme in 25 man, and 25 man required more dps output, however the issues in 10 man was more the cutters targeting healers and the wracks, however we have no issues with cutters on healers or wracks, since we have good dispellers and we know how to adapt to situations. All in all, 10 and 25 man sinestra is about equal, they just have different parts that are "hard".

  12. #52
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    tbh i'd like to see a huge guild, like paragon/ensidia and the likes to make both raids and tell what felt "harder"
    personally i don't raid 25 men anymore with cataclysm (much less time to waste after the game mostly) and what i can tell you is 10 men right now feels just as hard as 25 men felt back in wrath
    Why?
    because i still have to carry people, i remember back in ICC i had to tank (my mainspec) and i was often used as a dps too because we lost some good people, and no matter the role i played, i was ALWAYS one of the bests available, i NEVER screwed up more than once in ANY fight, and yet i had to wipe for hours on LK/Sindragosa/Putricide hard modes to get them down

    Right now i'm playing with friends, i'm still having to carry some of them, i can feel it and i know if i could raid with some of the people from wrath i'd be blasting through content WAY faster

    TL;DR nobody has and equally skilled 10 and 25 men group, that alone makes it impossible to compare how hard both things are

    oh, and in wrath i'm talking about the realm first top progression kind of guild, anyone from our core group could have joined pretty much any other guild they wanted

  13. #53
    People kind of make 10 man harder for themselves by having a small roster, just because you raid 10 man doesn't mean you should only have 10 raiders, 25 man guilds sometimes have 40 or more raiders, and it's probably more important on 10 man to have a pool of players to choose from, atleast on some encounters.

  14. #54
    The Lightbringer Seriss's Avatar
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    There are some mechanics that can and/or will wipe your raid, no matter if it's 10-man or 25-man. So in either cases, only one person may mess up and already cause a wipe.

    Necessary interrupts are more easily handled on 10-man as far as I can tell from our alt-raids as the intervals are longer or there simply are less adds. Less MOBs to control is a significant ease if you ask me. Bringing down one Corrupted Adherent is just way easier than ensuring that two of those buggers get interrupted perfectly and go down at the same time, for example.
    Last edited by Seriss; 2011-06-16 at 12:30 PM.

  15. #55
    There is not an easier size. Juust is way much easier to organize and find 10 dedicate people than 25. Hence most of the times 10man progress faster than 25man.

    I stick to 25 just because i feel them more epic. Rewards are the same, achievemnts are the same, only thing that changes is how you feel them.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  16. #56
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright View Post
    Is it just my opinion that 10man is way easier than 25man??


    we had 2weeks ago not enough player for our 25man raid, so we went 10man BoT and instantly got 2new first kills..council heroic and chogal heroic..
    this weeek we killed alakir in 10man heroic on the 6th attempt...so we did 12/13heroic in just 2weeks on ten man, and normaly we just raid 25man..

    so it seems that ten man heroic is definatly the freeloot version...what do you think??
    No it just looks like you've taken 10 best raiders out of your 25 group. It looks like a few raiders out of your 25 raid are below your avg skill I suggest you do some replacing. 25 is generally easier tho

  17. #57
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    Really love the fact people keep going on and on about this subject.
    Does it really matter what's harder?

    Better question: Is 25 man more fun then 10 man

  18. #58
    You are right, we transferred recently and took a week off. During that week off, we did a 10man with random people that were on and it wasn't challenging at all.

    I'll be honest, most people saying 10 is the same difficulty than 25 are defending their 10m guilds. The only fight that was on par or could possibly be more difficult was Sinestra.
    Last edited by Obsession; 2011-06-16 at 12:26 PM.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Téuntjûh View Post
    Really love the fact people keep going on and on about this subject.
    Does it really matter what's harder?

    Better question: Is 25 man more fun then 10 man
    10 man is more fun with friends, 25 man is more fun with random people.

    25 man just feel more epic and when you kill a boss it actually feels like an accomplishment while 10 man feels more like a 5 man.
    However 10 man is much more enjoyable if your doing it with IRLs, laughing and joking all night

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by powersoul View Post
    I think you have 15 free loaders in your 25 man
    what this dude said, you were carrying some baddies tbh

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