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  1. #181
    Lol you would have a point if everyone here is complaining about balance at the start of the tier.

  2. #182
    Deleted
    7/13 heroic on 10 and 5/13 heroic on 25 man here. At least from a healer's perspective, 10man is much harder than 25, no doubt about it. The only easier thing about 10 man (and the reason why we have more 10 man progress on alts than 25 progress on mains) is that you can take the 10 good people who won't derp their way to heroic kills with the help of the rest of the raid.

    Additional note: One of our tanks is in a 13/13 guild, he constantly says that 10 man is overtuned compared to 25. Except for Al'akir.

  3. #183
    Deleted
    the damadge scaleing between 25 and 10 means there are more "one shot" deaths for dps on 25man than on 10 man where the damadge x ability does you can survive if you managed to resist at least 25% ( which is the ammount you will get from resistance totem/aura) whereas on 25man you would have to resist 40~% to survive it. which means either aura mastery from a holy pally or using some damg reduction cd your clas has.

  4. #184
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Deylana View Post
    The only easier thing about 10 man (and the reason why we have more 10 man progress on alts than 25 progress on mains) is that you can take the 10 good people who won't derp their way to heroic kills with the help of the rest of the raid.

    Additional note: One of our tanks is in a 13/13 guild, he constantly says that 10 man is overtuned compared to 25. Except for Al'akir.
    For people who are progressing into heroic modes, the skill gap between the people in the raid isn't that bad. There is a lot of middle ground between world class player and "bads who are carried" - people just make mistakes; a lot more mistakes happen in 25-man.

    10-mans were only overtuned* at the start of the tier. Hotfixes + gear corrected that, and 10-mans will always scale faster than 25; once you overcome the number challenge, they are easier to execute because there are less people involved. Less people = less screwups, leading to (significantly) faster progress.

    *is a relative term. A lot of people labeled certain encounters as overtuned (or mathematically impossible ) in the past; yet amazing guilds managed to get them down (seemingly) against all odds.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    Sure. If you are doing normal modes.
    In most cases if you are doing heroic content without overgear, killing bosses first time, it means that 1 dead player in 25man means that you have to wipe and start over. And chance that one of your players will fail is MUCH higher.
    And as long as I remember it always was like this at top level of raiding.

    Normal mode 10ppl content is faceroll, nothing to talk about.
    10man heroic content is as hard as 25man content, with few bosses easier in 10man and few bosses easier in 25man.

    In means of organization its MUCH harder to manage good 25 man guild and its much harder to find 30-35 good players for such guild.
    In the same time its much harder to build proper setup for different 10man bosses and its harder to deal with absence of important players in 10man guild.

    IMO, current situation is pretty much balanced.
    This. At least, currently that is how its working. For quite a while, 10 man was leagues beyond 25 simply because so many of the bosses were super overtuned to the point that some were actually mathematically impossible. Even the ones that were not impossible were absolutely brutal.

    Someone made the example of heroic nef. I'd agree that heroic nef in 10 man isn't that bad anymore (nor is he in 25), but he was nuts prenerf (I mean after the first nerf that actually made him possible, but before the most recent nerf that brought him in line with 25). We killed him the week before he was nerfed, and worked our asses off to do that because we didn't want to come in and roll an easier boss after putting in so much time on him.

    Phase 2 pillars were unbelievably hard for healers before they nerfed it, especially if you had a resto shaman (we do). It was basically, make sure you are full mana going into P2, spam everyone as hard as you can, popping cooldowns if anyone gets a cinder on your platform, and if a healer gets a cinder...spam harder and pray. If the dps can't get the adds down fast enough, you are going to wipe from healers going oom, and it really does not take long. We actually had our slowest pillar dps save their cooldowns even if they got stacks in first phase, just to get their pillar up to speed.

    We went back in to try him again a week or two after we killed him (post nerf) and the pillars were laughable compared to before. Our healers didn't have to touch a cooldown, and all went into p3 with like 60 or 70% mana. Those kinds of fights are needed though, and I really wish they had not nerfed him. I've talked to some other guilds that are stuck on nef now and complain about how hard the healing is in P2...some even trying to 4 heal in 10 man to keep their weakest pillar up...and it makes me wish I could roll back that nerf. Our healers learned a lot from that fight, such as how to deplete their mana quickly but be efficient at the same time.

  6. #186
    Deleted
    Organizing 25mans is harder then 10man idd, but in terms of mechanics, 10man is harder because it's easier to compensate in a 25man group.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by ceciliu View Post
    For people who are progressing into heroic modes, the skill gap between the people in the raid isn't that bad. There is a lot of middle ground between world class player and "bads who are carried" - people just make mistakes; a lot more mistakes happen in 25-man.

    10-mans were only overtuned* at the start of the tier. Hotfixes + gear corrected that, and 10-mans will always scale faster than 25; once you overcome the number challenge, they are easier to execute because there are less people involved. Less people = less screwups, leading to (significantly) faster progress.

    *is a relative term. A lot of people labeled certain encounters as overtuned (or mathematically impossible ) in the past; yet amazing guilds managed to get them down (seemingly) against all odds.
    I'm pretty sure the mathematically impossible bosses were not killed...just the overtuned. Like for this tier, heroic 10 man V&T was heavily heavily overtuned, but a few guilds managed to have the stars align perfectly and downed it (which, it was more a luck thing with them than anything...just do it over and over and over and eventually you get the right people being hit by all the right things and its possible).

    Heroic Magmaw was also extremely overtuned, but people were able to down him. Heroic Cho, Heroic Nef, and Sinestra were all mathematically impossible. I believe AC was as well. Not a single guild in the world killed any of these before they were changed to be possible. WoW progress says that guilds did, but if you look at what guilds it lists...they are 25 man guilds and they actually did it in 25. WoW progress just had difficulty differentiating between 10 and 25.

    Edit:

    If you want to go into the past though, in Vanilla C'Thun was mathematically impossible and no one killed him until they changed that. In wrath I think people were trying to figure out if No Light in the Darkness was mathematically impossible (so much going on in this fight, it was hard to do all of the calculations needed), but then he was changed slightly and downed.

  8. #188
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    i do agree that coordinating 25 ppl is ahrder than coordinating 10, but assuming everyone knows their role the difficulty should be +/- the same.

  9. #189
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudolpho View Post
    In wrath I think people were trying to figure out if No Light in the Darkness was mathematically impossible (so much going on in this fight, it was hard to do all of the calculations needed), but then he was changed slightly and downed.
    The "mathematically impossible" comment was indeed a (sarcastic) reference mainly to Yogg 0. It wasn't changed before the first kill - Stars, Paragon and about 12 other guilds killed it in the "impossible" state, and the forums were very entertaining to read during that time A lot of people were trying to justify it with semi-mathematical arguments (for weeks), and at some point Stars just kills it.
    Lich King 25 heroic was also labeled impossible; people kept making threads about how it is impossible to beat P2 DPS requirements, and less than a week after the "latest QQ wave", Paragon just killed it.
    People will be quick to label stuff as "impossible" based on statistics and what they think is the case, but we can never tell for sure. Paragon's heroic 25-man AC kill was done with an extreme setup (not taking away from them anything, on the contrary, grats to them for figuring out what they had to do), and if you watch the video, you'll see that they have like 1 or 2 people alive at the end - it was that close. Fight got fixed only after that. Even Paragon themselves said things about Al'Akir 25-man being impossible and proceeded to kill him within a week from those comments. One of them even admitted on their site that he overreacted a lot about the difficulty of Al'Akir. My point? People will throw around the "impossible" label very easy, we can't tell for sure. The best world top guilds are 25-man right now (and I'm not taking their side, they were the leading guilds during WotLK as well), and they will go beyond what us simple mortals can understand in this game.

    I won't argue that the tuning early in this tier was ridiculous and 10-mans had to suffer a lot more out of this, but 25-man weren't far from this either. Let's take the Magmaw example. People killed it in 25-man by kiting adds to Omnotron room; that tactic in itself took A LOT of skill to pull off (it is harder than "lets just nuke them down" of course, so I'm not trying to downrank their kills), the reason for that was simply numbers. I don't know all the hotfixes, but I know that the first nerf was in patch 4.0.6. They removed the kiting part of the adds (no reason anymore, couldn't do it even if you want), and reduced some HP around. That fix made the boss beatable "normally". It still was a joy to spot the fires in melee range with all the shiny effects going around, but it was killable. After the second nerf (even less add HP, no more fires in melee range), it did drop the difficulty considerably.

  10. #190
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    To be quite honest I don't really care which is the "harder" of the two. They're more or less the same encounters, isn't that what blizzard wanted?

    This whole topic is null and void, everybody will argue that their version is harder because it makes them feel a little bit better inside and gives bragging rights. "Oh, you killed Sinestra on 10man? Well suck it, I did it on 25man so it makes me a better player!"

    People could argue till the cows come home about this.

  11. #191
    Let's hope Firelands HC isn't in such an awful state as early T11 HC were.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by ceciliu View Post
    The "mathematically impossible" comment was indeed a (sarcastic) reference mainly to Yogg 0. It wasn't changed before the first kill - Stars, Paragon and about 12 other guilds killed it in the "impossible" state, and the forums were very entertaining to read during that time A lot of people were trying to justify it with semi-mathematical arguments (for weeks), and at some point Stars just kills it.
    Lich King 25 heroic was also labeled impossible; people kept making threads about how it is impossible to beat P2 DPS requirements, and less than a week after the "latest QQ wave", Paragon just killed it.
    People will be quick to label stuff as "impossible" based on statistics and what they think is the case, but we can never tell for sure. Paragon's heroic 25-man AC kill was done with an extreme setup (not taking away from them anything, on the contrary, grats to them for figuring out what they had to do), and if you watch the video, you'll see that they have like 1 or 2 people alive at the end - it was that close. Fight got fixed only after that. Even Paragon themselves said things about Al'Akir 25-man being impossible and proceeded to kill him within a week from those comments. One of them even admitted on their site that he overreacted a lot about the difficulty of Al'Akir. My point? People will throw around the "impossible" label very easy, we can't tell for sure. The best world top guilds are 25-man right now (and I'm not taking their side, they were the leading guilds during WotLK as well), and they will go beyond what us simple mortals can understand in this game.

    I won't argue that the tuning early in this tier was ridiculous and 10-mans had to suffer a lot more out of this, but 25-man weren't far from this either. Let's take the Magmaw example. People killed it in 25-man by kiting adds to Omnotron room; that tactic in itself took A LOT of skill to pull off (it is harder than "lets just nuke them down" of course, so I'm not trying to downrank their kills), the reason for that was simply numbers. I don't know all the hotfixes, but I know that the first nerf was in patch 4.0.6. They removed the kiting part of the adds (no reason anymore, couldn't do it even if you want), and reduced some HP around. That fix made the boss beatable "normally". It still was a joy to spot the fires in melee range with all the shiny effects going around, but it was killable. After the second nerf (even less add HP, no more fires in melee range), it did drop the difficulty considerably.
    The heroic LK thing was more that he was impossible with current gear at 0% buff. 5% was enough to push it over.

    Yogg was never declared mathematically impossible by anyone that actually did the math on it...because the math was never completed. It was too complicated and before it could be finished he was killed which kinda stopped anyone from going on, as the answer would have been "yes hes killable, but he will be crazy hard".

    Cho, Nef, and Sinestra were all mathematically impossible because it was actually impossible to push the amount of dps and hps needed to make it through the fight, no matter how well you set up the comp or how geared the players were.

    BTW, Magmaw can still put fire in melee (if you are talking about the fire left by the bone constructs) and does it quite often for us. If you mean the fire from the eruption for the parasites, then yeah that doesn't ever happen anymore unless a melee stands just slightly too far out.

    ---------- Post added 2011-06-20 at 06:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Howlee View Post
    Let's hope Firelands HC isn't in such an awful state as early T11 HC were.
    The main thing I hope for is that none of the bosses are so overtuned that they are almost impossible or actually mathematically impossible...and second I really really hope there is a bit more a linear progression of difficulty. Rag should be the hardest, followed by the 2 guys before him, and the first 4 you can pick from should be hard but should not be as hard or harder than any of the following ones. Nothing is more annoying as a raid leader than working on a heroic boss, and when it gets close to the end of the raid week having to choose between going normal for one boss just to unlock the later heroic bosses that you have on farm. We had this issue with both Magmaw and Omnitron. Magmaw wasn't such a big deal, as when we finally started getting actual attempts on him we finally found a good offtank replacement and knocked him out in about 2 hours after bringing him in.

    Omnitron, on the other hand, took some time to get down and we actually normal moded them one week just to finish clearing our other heroics (including heroic nef). Came in the next week and took them down in an hour or so, but I hate making those decisions.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudolpho View Post
    Cho, Nef, and Sinestra were all mathematically impossible because it was actually impossible to push the amount of dps and hps needed to make it through the fight, no matter how well you set up the comp or how geared the players were.
    What are you on about? All three of those fights were possible from their first incarnation (obviously Sinestra was changed, but it was made harder in several ways), on both raid sizes. The only encounter that there is no empirical proof of being beaten before significant nerfs is heroic Atramedes. There were several Korean guilds who killed him a week or so before the fight was hotfixed and changed so the rings didn't bounce back off walls, whether they did it legitimately or not is unknown. However, the fight definitely was possible, just frustrating to the point of not being worth the effort.

  14. #194

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Chiasmus View Post
    What are you on about? All three of those fights were possible from their first incarnation (obviously Sinestra was changed, but it was made harder in several ways), on both raid sizes. The only encounter that there is no empirical proof of being beaten before significant nerfs is heroic Atramedes. There were several Korean guilds who killed him a week or so before the fight was hotfixed and changed so the rings didn't bounce back off walls, whether they did it legitimately or not is unknown. However, the fight definitely was possible, just frustrating to the point of not being worth the effort.
    Really? Which guilds killed any of those bosses before they were changed at least once? If you will notice, it was quite a while after multiple guilds in 25 were 13\13 that any guild killed any of these in 10 man.

    Edit: Also, lots of guilds killed atra early on, not just korean guilds. Atra was bugged in at least 4 different ways as they fixed him that allowed people to gimp his mechanics and kill him with no issue. The first was the standing in the hallway to avoid rings, and later people used various things around his room to stop rings, and some even bugged his gongs to perma stun him.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Pre nerf 10man HC >>>>>> 25man HC
    Post nerf 10man HC > 25man HC
    I wonder what game you are talking about, since that statement isn't even remotely accurate in WoW. It's okay though, we all got used with players from subpar guilds which experienced content eons after its implementation giving their "expert" opinion around.

  17. #197
    It basically comes down to

    Progress with full 359-gear: 10-man hc harder. 25-man hc leaves more room for mistakes.
    Farming with full 372-gear: 25-man hc harder, since 10-man hc is easily steamrolled in that gear, where 25-man hc still is possible to mess up if not everyone is paying attention to their game.

    It's fairly balanced now.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Chiasmus View Post
    Except there were several guilds who cleared every encounter of tier eleven on ten man heroic before it was nerfed, so stop spouting garbage. Ensidia got stuck in ten man heroic for a week thanks to the 'flexible' lockout system that limits you to one raid size for heroic modes.
    Wrong. You're the one spouting garbage. Not a single guild killed magmaw or H V & T pre nerf. I want to say cho' too. Not to mention < 20 guilds killed H sinestra pre (4.1) nerf world wide.

    http://www.wowtrack.org/encounter.lua/4.0/Magmaw/Heroic
    http://www.wowtrack.org/encounter.lua/4.0/Valiona%20and%20Theralion/Heroic

    Please don't post if you don't know shit, which you obviously don't. Pre nerf 10 mans were fuckin BRUTAL, trust me I would know.



    ---------- Post added 2011-06-26 at 04:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiasmus View Post
    What are you on about? All three of those fights were possible from their first incarnation (obviously Sinestra was changed, but it was made harder in several ways), on both raid sizes. The only encounter that there is no empirical proof of being beaten before significant nerfs is heroic Atramedes. There were several Korean guilds who killed him a week or so before the fight was hotfixed and changed so the rings didn't bounce back off walls, whether they did it legitimately or not is unknown. However, the fight definitely was possible, just frustrating to the point of not being worth the effort.
    No, wrong again. please just stop talking you're embarrassing yourself & the MMO champion community.

  19. #199
    I raid with a 25man guild and also do 10man altruns on offdays.

    I have to say its about the same, some bosses are harder on 10man, some are harder on 25. The thing I notice about 10man is not having to deal with the retarded amounts of thrash that I feel there is in 25 man.


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