Denounce Change

[Flummox]

I'm wondering what the consensus is on the change to Denounce: The mana cost of Exorcism is still lowered, but instead your Exo targets have a 50%/100% chance to no longer cause a critical strike for six seconds (or however long) - can be dispelled.

I'm surprised I haven't seen a lot of discussion on it, and I'm just curious what others think. It seems like a very powerful debuff to toss up on a bursty class when the moment presents itself. However, Exo would merely be interrupt-bait and have you locked out of your healing just because you wanted to put up a crit debuff on your opponent. I'm having a hard time justifying the new Denounce with the old one, even if the damage was minimal.

[Blackeyecycle]

Timed right, that is a serious debuff. Di spellable hurts.

[terrahero]

If your able to put this on a target it is an extremely powerfull debuff.

Just to toss you a few examples:

-Warriors goes RAAAAAAGE, pops recklessness (+50% crit chance) and is getting ready to blow someone up. Woops, a quick Exorcism and he wont crit at all for 6sec. Screw his +50% crit buff!
-A healer under presure, trying to pump out all the healing he can on himself or an ally. Exorcism his face and he wont be able to get any crit heals for 6seconds. Thats a much stronger healing debuff then 10% from Mortal Strike. Not to mention alot of healers proc yummy effects with crit heals, that now they wont get...

So, its a good tool to simply gimp someone in any direction of gameplay. Nerf their healing, or nerf their damage. Strong both offensively and defensively. Now, all that it comes down to is how freely you can actually cast this thing.
Personally i feel this is the kind of talent that should go up in the tree (or down, w/e) so Ret can spec for it aswell. Fek knows they could use some utility in pvp... Now it would be a nice debuff on an Exo proc. Or spend cast time and alot of mana to get that debuff. Seems like a fair, and strategic, choice.

[Stubb]

As a healer, having an offensive burst reduction debuff is crazy good. Will definitely help again MS effects (in conjunction with a dispel) for a focused ally. And an instant FoL? Goodbye DL in pvp. instant FoL,FoL,HS,WoG,PoTI transfer = pwnage heals. And if each HS on a daybreak proc, procs IoL??? Awesomeness.

Plus 2 sprints?! Might actually put my pvp gear on this season.

[Flaks]

I'd just like to point out that the denounce effect exo's are always going to be instant and so uninterruptable. I was confused about this and kept interrupting hard casted exo's in arena matches without realizing that they don't proc the denounce effect.

Also, I'm going to tell you guys right now that holy's in for a major nerf come 4.2. They'll be better than resto shamans in rated PvP. This is from my own experience from PTR. With the mastery change, denounces etc. + damage nerfs to other classes paladins have become insanely powerful (personally I'd say overpowered) healers. Its awesome not being able to get a holy pally belo 70% when he's using nothing but instants. WoG crits for 80k+, hasted divine lights, flash of light heals for more than any other quick heal. Its just silly.

[PlatedPriest]

O.o

i guess it time to start getting some pvp gear eh?

[Stubb]

Meh holy paladins are getting the tools they need to stay alive in pvp. May be a bit over board and I think there will be a nerf to something, eventually (always is with paladins). I'll enjoy the changes while I can. People will have to just ff hpallies like they used to. Not just send one person over to cc spam and blow them down...

[Flummox]

I'd just like to point out that the denounce effect exo's are always going to be instant and so uninterruptable. I was confused about this and kept interrupting hard casted exo's in arena matches without realizing that they don't proc the denounce effect.

But Flaks, the patch notes say they're removing that portion of the Denounce talent making it such that Exo has a smaller mana cost and just throws up the crit debuff.

I will add, it provides good synergy with an MS debuff. I also believe there was a change made to critical heals in the upcoming patch, making them heal for 100% the amount rather than 50%? Might make it even more of a viable talent (if you can get it casted...).

[Stubb]

But Flaks, the patch notes say they're removing that portion of the Denounce talent making it such that Exo has a smaller mana cost and just throws up the crit debuff.

I will add, it provides good synergy with an MS debuff. I also believe there was a change made to critical heals in the upcoming patch, making them heal for 100% the amount rather than 50%? Might make it even more of a viable talent (if you can get it casted...).

Yeah getting it off in a bg won't be that difficult. Btw, as of the latest patch notes, denounce still lowers the mana cost of exorcism. Mastery is good and all but I wonder if crit will be even more of a wanted talent due to the Instant FoL with IoL and also getting your mastery stacks up quick. Having the ability to do three instants consecutively and often will be super burst healing. Especially if the target is below 35%.

[Deleted]

My latest test on PTR 4.2 shows me, that prime Glyph of Exorcism does not refresh Denounce debuff to give longer then 6 s. effect on target. In other words this glyph just adds 20% dmg over 6 s. and does not extend debuff up to 12 s. (base 6 s. from talent plus expected 6 s. from glyph).

[Malthanis]

My latest test on PTR 4.2 shows me, that prime Glyph of Exorcism does not refresh Denounce debuff to give longer then 6 s. effect on target. In other words this glyph just adds 20% dmg over 6 s. and does not extend debuff up to 12 s. (base 6 s. from talent plus expected 6 s. from glyph).

Why exactly did you think it would in the first place?

[Deleted]

Why exactly did you think it would in the first place?

I am not sure if I understand your question, but sometimes Blizzard does not inform us about all changes of gameplay. That's why I do tests to uncover new things or to be sure that nothing has changed.
As I remember, similar situation was with hidden cd on Eternal Glory talent. Description of skill wasn't changed, but Blizzard added cd to stop chain procs.
Making test is funny.

[Deleted]

Regardless of what most everyone seems to think and says, it will NOT be good. It's absolutely TERRIBLE. I won't go as far as saying it's useless because if it does work on heals too, wacking one on a healer while he's under pressure might be a decent idea if you can spare the global, but other than that, it's not worth picking for shit.

Scenario - Oh man look, that warrior's popped reck (like some guy above mentioned)! Holy shit, my partner's getting absolutely shredded to bits and, thanks for Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit I, as a holy paladin, am not sitting in CC and there are no interrupts available to be used on me! He's on 50%! Better exorcism him so he can't crit! Just kidding, by the time you get it off your partner's dead due to lack of heals. This is very broad and I hate theorizing, but trust me, it will NOT be good at high ratings, not even remotely. Oh man, that mage's shattering my partner, CS is up, he can sheep me or do whatever the fuck he wants, better use my time using exorcism on him instead of actually healing! Come on now, get your shit together.

Blizzard are not very smart when it comes to class balance as far as PvP goes - this is not what paladins need. It never was, any good paladin will tell you this, and what we need is obvious to most people with a pair of eyes as well.

[kosechi]

so a talent i used to use to help keep pressure on the opposing team when i had a spare gcd is being turned into something i will probably never use and won't spec into.

i mean how much casting do i actually do as a paladin given how ludicrously badly designed we are for pvp. i can get off maybe 5-10 casts a match. i juke casts more then i actually cast.

i'm not going to spending those precious casts i have under AM/Bubble casting exo.

[fierceangel]

Was going to ask if it's worth glyphing Exorcism for dispel protection? Can't remember if the DoT from the glyph is dispellable, and if that would take precedence. Also, can it be cast on multiple players?

As for the talent itself, I kinda like it. I would probably use it on healers more than anything, removing their chance to crit is pretty decent, especially against Disc Priests that rely on crit so much. It's a nice tool to have against dps too, when they blow their iWin macros, only to find they can't crit with their abilities. Would be super effective used on dps in full epic PvE gear.

I can see this talent being tweaked to increase its usability, but right now I prefer it to the old talent.

[Hand Banana]

Regardless of what most everyone seems to think and says, it will NOT be good. It's absolutely TERRIBLE. I won't go as far as saying it's useless because if it does work on heals too, wacking one on a healer while he's under pressure might be a decent idea if you can spare the global, but other than that, it's not worth picking for shit.

Scenario - Oh man look, that warrior's popped reck (like some guy above mentioned)! Holy shit, my partner's getting absolutely shredded to bits and, thanks for Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit I, as a holy paladin, am not sitting in CC and there are no interrupts available to be used on me! He's on 50%! Better exorcism him so he can't crit! Just kidding, by the time you get it off your partner's dead due to lack of heals. This is very broad and I hate theorizing, but trust me, it will NOT be good at high ratings, not even remotely. Oh man, that mage's shattering my partner, CS is up, he can sheep me or do whatever the fuck he wants, better use my time using exorcism on him instead of actually healing! Come on now, get your shit together.

Blizzard are not very smart when it comes to class balance as far as PvP goes - this is not what paladins need. It never was, any good paladin will tell you this, and what we need is obvious to most people with a pair of eyes as well.

While I do agree with this, Ill be playing with a spellcleave on my pally next season and there are many times, especially at the beginning of matches, where I have basically nothing to do because their team is controlled or my teammates are topped off, usually I just use that time to position myself better, but this gives me at least something if i even bother speccing into it, which i probably wont, since you really cant get denounce and speed of light together. I can see this talent being really strong in 2s though (OMG 2s DONT MATTER). If it still made exorcism instant than it would be worth the global since it cant be interrupted, but seems pretty weak right now.

[archangelz]

Regardless of what most everyone seems to think and says, it will NOT be good. It's absolutely TERRIBLE. I won't go as far as saying it's useless because if it does work on heals too, wacking one on a healer while he's under pressure might be a decent idea if you can spare the global, but other than that, it's not worth picking for shit.

Scenario - Oh man look, that warrior's popped reck (like some guy above mentioned)! Holy shit, my partner's getting absolutely shredded to bits and, thanks for Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit I, as a holy paladin, am not sitting in CC and there are no interrupts available to be used on me! He's on 50%! Better exorcism him so he can't crit! Just kidding, by the time you get it off your partner's dead due to lack of heals. This is very broad and I hate theorizing, but trust me, it will NOT be good at high ratings, not even remotely. Oh man, that mage's shattering my partner, CS is up, he can sheep me or do whatever the fuck he wants, better use my time using exorcism on him instead of actually healing! Come on now, get your shit together.

Blizzard are not very smart when it comes to class balance as far as PvP goes - this is not what paladins need. It never was, any good paladin will tell you this, and what we need is obvious to most people with a pair of eyes as well.

There's something called 'pressure', not sure if you've heard about it or not. Assuming every paladin plays the only comp thats decent for them, TSG, pressure is the only thing that comp has going for it. Getting a well timed exorcism on a healer helps just that much more. It's situational, you act as if everythings cut and dry when it's not.
Your example with the mage is completely irrelevant considering you most likely won't be using it defensively. If your partner is in a deep freeze, assuming it's RMP, the last thing you're going to do also assuming you're not already sheeped, is cast exorcism. Any holy paladin with a brain is going to either A) attempt to dispel him or B) heal him.

[Deleted]

I'd just like to point out that the denounce effect exo's are always going to be instant and so uninterruptable. I was confused about this and kept interrupting hard casted exo's in arena matches without realizing that they don't proc the denounce effect.

Also, I'm going to tell you guys right now that holy's in for a major nerf come 4.2. They'll be better than resto shamans in rated PvP. This is from my own experience from PTR. With the mastery change, denounces etc. + damage nerfs to other classes paladins have become insanely powerful (personally I'd say overpowered) healers. Its awesome not being able to get a holy pally belo 70% when he's using nothing but instants. WoG crits for 80k+, hasted divine lights, flash of light heals for more than any other quick heal. Its just silly.

excuse me, but you are spreading false information.

1.) exo is not instant anymore, and hard casts exos will add the debuff called "denounce". i don't need to play on the ptr to read the tiny tooltip stating exactly that.

2.) WoG does not crit for 80k+, i'd like to see that scenario.

3.) i'd rather have the melee/whatever waste his interrupt on my exo than my heal. pulling interrupts with exo so that i can heal freely afterwards, when faking is not always an option/Possible against players with half a brain? yay, i like that.

+ keeping that debuff on a specific target and thus forcing the healer to spam dispel (you know how expensive dispels are right? manawar win!) is a very good option. imho you'll be forced to let the debuff up in the long run

im pretty excited regarding the changes to the holy paladin, i always disliked playing it in PvP because it's just too passive for me. with denounce the specc finally get's a cool and strong offensive tool. besided: expect elemental shamans to come out of their resto-holes after the patch, denouncing them will be very strong.

[Malthanis]

2.) WoG does not crit for 80k+, i'd like to see that scenario.

Maybe if you're Ret with Selfless Healer. But since this is a holy thread...

3.) i'd rather have the melee/whatever waste his interrupt on my exo than my heal. pulling interrupts with exo so that i can heal freely afterwards, when faking is not always an option/Possible against players with half a brain? yay, i like that.

But isn't Exorcism still a Holy spell? An interrupted Exo would still silence all of your casted abilities (since the Holy school is all a paladin has).

[Flummox]

But isn't Exorcism still a Holy spell? An interrupted Exo would still silence all of your casted abilities (since the Holy school is all a paladin has).

Getting an Exo interrupted would definitely lock you out. Add to the fact that you're not going to burn an Aura Mastery just to get an anti-crit buff off for six seconds.