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  1. #21
    Hi Zuziza, thank you for the question. This is a very tricky one. I will try my best to explain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuziza View Post
    Since we're going into the next tier, it should be noted that the haste plateau you advocated (2588) is already achievable in t11. I have 2680, with only 1 heroic piece. Thus, if this will be a 4.2 guide, what advice should there be for once you've gotten past the 359ish mark and have this plateau handled? Should we be simming ever afterwards for every piece, or is there a pattern for other stat weights?
    So the biggest issue I see is people getting a gear set that doesn't reach these plateaus, and not getting the same dps as a shadow priest next to them who has similar gear and wondering "Why can't I keep up with him/her?". Haste does not normally become worse than any other stat at any level, so even after you reach these you should just continue to stack haste. The guide stresses plateaus so much because of the significant bonus to damage you get from reaching them. In some ways it is sort of like getting a mini "set bonus" (think like our tier 9 set bonus that extended the cast time of VT). It is something to consider when looking at equiping an item that would cause you to fall under them.

    The above is mostly what I want people to take away from the guide when it talks about Haste Plateaus.

    Now... (trails off)... there's more, but it gets theoretical.

    If you can keep ES up 100% of the time, there is a point where Mastery will increase dps more than haste after you reach these plateaus. You have to tell Simulationcraft to build ES up first before casting dots in order to see the behavior. What I know from this is that when ES is active, Mastery can occasionally be stronger. The question here is whether or not this is going to translate into an actual dps increase in the game. The answer is I do not know, but I think it will.

    You're asking for a definitive answer, but I cannot give you one yet. If you don't want to bother with it, just continue to stack haste. You probably won't notice a difference. There is a chance however that stacking mastery after a haste plateau will increase DPS more than haste (with tier 12). It's a behavior I have seen in Simulationcraft, and is something I intend to test thoroughly throughout 4.2. I will update the guide when I have more information. For now that's all I can say about it.
    Last edited by Kilee25; 2011-06-27 at 10:34 PM.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    The Old Guard - my Earthen Ring guild
    Revenant - my Echo Isles guild
    HowToPriest - a great priest forum

  2. #22
    Thanks, that actually was the type of answer I wanted. I'm hoping it is added to the guide so people know how to carry on once they reach that plateau. =)

    The note on ES uptime is very important. For the average spriest, uptime on ES is not very high, so until their skill improves, they'd be better off stacking haste even if sim says to go with mastery. On the other hand, if an excellent spriest with good connection and comp can get crazy good ES uptime, they may prefer mastery to maximize DPS on certain fights. That'd be a skill/lag affected distinction (much like Arlee covered in her Hit Cap FAQ) that could explain why 2 priests in the same gear may have different output. This would also vary by fight; looking at the Firelands bosses, maximizing uptime on ES may not be so feasible due to movement (fewer orbs, QQ).

    It is worth bringing up though, so I'm very glad you included it in your response. Understanding the reasons behind our stat weights beyond what sim spits out can improve any raider.
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Power Torrent, Volcano and Theralion proc'ed, dots just refreshed. Everyone dies. Just a tank and a boss with around 200k hp. Everyone in vt yells "omg we failed omg omg" and you "don't worry amigos, my dots are steamrolling!". Boss dies while you'd say "Enjoy your loots" with a lot of purple awesomness spilling thru your voice. Just happend yesterday.

    Seriously, i thought i'd reroll warlock for 4.2, but that was the sign that i'm purple inside and i can't reroll. never.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuziza View Post
    looking at the Firelands bosses, maximizing uptime on ES may not be so feasible due to movement (fewer orbs, QQ).
    This actually looks like it might be what is happening so far. Though due to limited availability of ptr logs it is hard to say if it has more to do with learning new fights and not performing as well as you would on a boss you have been fighting for awhile. So this is something else I am interested in as well

  4. #24
    I need time with the game as well. The guide is not complete or final. I don't think it ever will be. I will probably change the stat weights 6 more times in the next month alone. I will probably change the BIS list 3 more times. I'll probably re-write entire sections after I start playing around with tier 12 and seeing what works and what doesn't. I hope that people reading it understand that there is no "be all end all", and I never intended to be the final say on how to play a priest. I can only hope that it does more good than bad within the community. I wrote it for people like me who wanted to learn more about their class and how their spells work. I didn't write it for people who are #1 in World of Logs and already know what they are doing. I also didn't write the guide for beginners who don't know how ES works. I can only do so much before it turns into a book instead of a guide... (lol man I need to go to sleep).
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    The Old Guard - my Earthen Ring guild
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    HowToPriest - a great priest forum

  5. #25
    Mechagnome Veiled's Avatar
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    Once the patch is here, this guide will shape up quickly and be much more precise. Kilee won't let anyone down. I AM EXCITE!

    MoP Guides, Raiding and Pre-Raiding BiS Lists, Theorycrafting, Healing/DPS Help & More!

  6. #26
    Elemental Lord Chickat's Avatar
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    you should add this to the official forums

  7. #27
    Opening Rotation

    My opening rotation goes like this: Volcanic Potion, Shadow Word: Pain, Shadow Fiend, Mind Flay x 1.1, Mind Blast, Vampiric Touch, Devouring Plague, Archangel. From there I just start Mind Flaying and going into the normal rotation, refreshing dots whenever a stronger buff becomes available.

    I'm aware that there are a lot of different opinions on opening rotations. Many feel it is best to lead off with dots first, and then build buffs later. The reason I do not advocate this method is because at the start of the pull, you have a lot of procs going off - shadow orbs, trinkets, enchants, etc... If you lead off with dots, they are ticking at their lowest settings, and will need to be refreshed as soon as buffs become active.

    The other advantage of this rotation is that it advocates using Archangel early off, and while a lot of intellect buffs are still active. If you get a bit of luck, an orb will proc before the Mind Blast, then your dots go up at their strongest setting and do not need to be refreshed, and you are going right into Archangel with your intellect procs still active. It's a gamble, yes, but if it works it pays off with a very large burst at the start, and that's the reason I advocate it.

    (I have tested the above opening in Simulationcraft, and it appears to hold up and perform soundly.)
    Few questions:

    1) What specifically is 1.1 mind flay? Is it one mind flay with a another mind flay but clip the 2nd mind flay after one tick or is it one mind flay clipping it at the first tick?

    2) You have tested this opening rotation on simulatrioncraft. Have you tested it on live to see how it performs against our other rotation that we have had for so long? What is the difference in DPS by comparing the two different opening rotations?
    Pokemon FC: 4425-2708-3610

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  8. #28
    High Overlord H E R O's Avatar
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    Awesome guide, Saved to favorites! I might need it with my future SP.
    Garrosh Hellscream says: Shut your clever mouth, bitch.

    Tallahassee: [Searching for Twinkies] Where are you, you spongy, yellow, delicious bastards?

  9. #29
    Great guide Kilee! Thanks for posting it here aswell.
    No Envy, No Fear


  10. #30
    Hi Zito, thank you for the questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    1) What specifically is 1.1 mind flay? Is it one mind flay with a another mind flay but clip the 2nd mind flay after one tick or is it one mind flay clipping it at the first tick?
    I probably need to rewrite this, as it has evolved over the past few months. Originally this was a 1.2 Mind flay. 1 full Mind Flay, and then 2 ticks and an interrupt. I found later that I can clip the first Mind Flay after the 2nd tick, extend it, and then clip the 2nd mind flay after the 2nd tick for 4 ticks total and then cast Mind Blast. So it smore like a .2 .2 Mind flay I guess... I'll try to make this more clear in the guide in my next update. I think perhaps just changing it to read 1.2 will be best. A 1.1 does get the same effect, although you willl clip the 2nd Mind Flay in a bad place.

    2) You have tested this opening rotation on simulatrioncraft. Have you tested it on live to see how it performs against our other rotation that we have had for so long? What is the difference in DPS by comparing the two different opening rotations?
    Yes I've tested it exhaustively in game. The amount of difference you see depends on your gear level.

    When I was testing it, my opening rotation would burst for about 25k dps and sustain it for as long as 15 seconds. If ES does not go off early, it tends to do about the same as a normal rotation, which was about 20k. The point of the opening is to take advantage of trinket and weapon procs, by having your strongest spells put up at the same moment that your strongest buffs go up. I found that this one lined up well with those procs and allowed me to make the most use out of them.

    If you are the type who chronically tracks buffs, you should notice a difference right away, as everything goes off typically right as you are finishing that 4-5th Mind Flay tick. A lot of people I talked to noticed how well it was working on the first or second try. But I've seen others who condemned it immediately as "poppycock". So I guess I'll just sign off by saying "your mileage may vary". Just try it and see if it works for you - if not, find something that does.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    The Old Guard - my Earthen Ring guild
    Revenant - my Echo Isles guild
    HowToPriest - a great priest forum

  11. #31
    I've seen your topic on shadowpriest.com and together with the ppl there, this guide has become quite accurate imo. It's been well updated and followed by a lot of priests. I hope you can keep it up-to-date on this forum as well.

    Some points I'd like to discuss (couldn't post on sp.com)
    Haste plateaus exist. There's a point around 2.5k haste where haste rating is without doubt the best secondary stat. Haste diminishes after that. It will still increase the frequency at which dot ticks happen and it will still make Mind Flay and Mind Blast faster so it will be a close second, if Mastery passes it at all. However, have you really thought about t12 4set bonus?
    When MB's CD is reduced that much, we will be using it a lot more, and that means we will Mind Flay less and generate less orbs. The only way to generate orbs faster is by getting more haste right? So my "gut feeling" says haste will still be the most important stat to stack as Mastery entirely depends on your Orb generation.
    So what's your opinion about this?

    Regardless of your answer there, try wording hit-haste priority like this:
    1. Prioritize Haste till haste-plateau of 30% (27% + DI)
    2. Prioritize Hit/Sprit to get as close to the cap of 17% (but NOT OVER)
    3. Prioritize Haste/Mastery depending on what stat you think is better.
    What do you think?

    You could stress the diversity in Major Glyphs a bit more. It's really 3 utility slots but it looks like you recommend only those 3 Major's ;-)
    Check your recent logs on the spirit tap glyph. When I checked it a couple of months ago, it was quite useless..

    Edit: one more thing:
    On the gem secion you say Reckless Ember Topaz is good when the socket bonus is +20 Int. But your scaling values don't support that. It would be good enough to gem from +10 Int socket bonuses as well. Any reason why you don't agree with that line of thinking?

    Oh, and is it okay to use this info in a shadowpriest youtube guide I'm planning to make? I'll make a reference to you
    Last edited by Omirr; 2011-06-28 at 01:18 PM.

  12. #32
    I'm a little confuse about the haste plateau for the 2nd tick of VT. I've always ready that its 2140 with dark intent, and you copied and pasted the same value into your original post....but you specifically say 2149 a few times. So, which is it, 2140 or 2149 with dark intent?

    I'm curious because it could impact reforging a little bit. I expect that we will have to reach 2141 haste as a priority if we are getting dark intent, and then reforge any extra haste to mastery,if possible, to maximize DPS with the 4.2 changes. You get a 3rd tick from DP at 2283 haste, but I really don't think that extra tick of DP will be as valuable as reaching another mastery plateau...so it looks like 2141 haste is the point where a shadow priest would want to start stacking mastery(assuming they are hit capped or close).

    What are other peoples' thoughts?

  13. #33
    Read his first post again. It clearly states 30% Haste needed for that extra VT tick but yeah, the number of haste rating should be consistent

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Omirr View Post
    However, have you really thought about t12 4set bonus?
    When MB's CD is reduced that much, we will be using it a lot more, and that means we will Mind Flay less and generate less orbs. The only way to generate orbs faster is by getting more haste right? So my "gut feeling" says haste will still be the most important stat to stack as Mastery entirely depends on your Orb generation.
    So what's your opinion about this?
    I am pretty sure the 4pc was changed to 25% increased damage instead of reduced CD:

    http://ptr.wowhead.com/itemset=-359
    Pokemon FC: 4425-2708-3610

    I received a day one ORAS demo code. I am a chosen one.

  15. #35
    Hi Omirr, thank you very much for the questions and feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omirr View Post
    I've seen your topic on shadowpriest.com and together with the ppl there, this guide has become quite accurate imo. It's been well updated and followed by a lot of priests. I hope you can keep it up-to-date on this forum as well.
    Thank you. It's been an iterative process. I probably make about 5-10 changes to the guide a week based on peoples suggestions. I plan to continue updating it throughout 4.2 and beyond.

    Some points I'd like to discuss (couldn't post on sp.com)
    Ug.. yeah it's down for me too. It seems to stay up about 10 minutes in the morning and then 10 at night... :P

    Haste plateaus exist. There's a point around 2.5k haste where haste rating is without doubt the best secondary stat. Haste diminishes after that. It will still increase the frequency at which dot ticks happen and it will still make Mind Flay and Mind Blast faster so it will be a close second, if Mastery passes it at all.
    Yeah I think part of the issue is that after a plateau, as you gain haste you are slowly eating into your cast time as VT shortens back down. Haste definately still goes up. With ES up, Mastery has already passed haste in 4.2, but I think my question at this point is how valuable is that in a practical setting. As many have said already, you typically only have 80% uptime on ES in a given fight. As a result of that the "helterskelter" scenerio needs to factor into it somewhere...

    I'll probably be adjusting the stat weights again later today after I have some more time to think about this issue some more.

    However, have you really thought about t12 4set bonus? When MB's CD is reduced that much, we will be using it a lot more, and that means we will Mind Flay less and generate less orbs. The only way to generate orbs faster is by getting more haste right? So my "gut feeling" says haste will still be the most important stat to stack as Mastery entirely depends on your Orb generation.
    So what's your opinion about this?
    Ah, yeah as others have pointed out the set bonus is a flat 30% increase to Mind Blast. The set bonus as it stands actually increases the value of mastery rather than diminish it (because mastery increases the damage done by Mind Blast).

    Regardless of your answer there, try wording hit-haste priority like this:
    1. Prioritize Haste till haste-plateau of 30% (27% + DI)
    2. Prioritize Hit/Sprit to get as close to the cap of 17% (but NOT OVER)
    3. Prioritize Haste/Mastery depending on what stat you think is better.
    What do you think?
    I will update the guide this afternoon and try to word it a little better. I am thinking I'm going to relegate the possibility of stacking mastery after haste to the FAQ section and try to clean as much of the haste plateau talk out of the main section of the guide as possible, and move that to the FAQ section as well.

    You could stress the diversity in Major Glyphs a bit more. It's really 3 utility slots but it looks like you recommend only those 3 Major's ;-)
    Check your recent logs on the spirit tap glyph. When I checked it a couple of months ago, it was quite useless..
    Interesting. What other glyphs do you think would be useful? I'll admit this doesn't go off all that much in a raid. But last time I looked at the Glyph list I didn't see anything particularly useful in its place. Perhaps the shield glyph?O

    On the gem secion you say Reckless Ember Topaz is good when the socket bonus is +20 Int. But your scaling values don't support that. It would be good enough to gem from +10 Int socket bonuses as well. Any reason why you don't agree with that line of thinking?
    I was toying with the idea that haste diminises below .5 after you hit a plateau. I'm still mulling this over in my head, but I'll be changing the guide to read +10 later today. As a point of interest, Mastery also occasionally goes above .5 as well, but on an average of simulation types it doesn't maintain it...

    Oh, and is it okay to use this info in a shadowpriest youtube guide I'm planning to make? I'll make a reference to you
    That sounds great. Let me know when you finish your video. I would love to watch it.

    ---------- Post added 2011-06-28 at 09:38 AM ----------

    Hi HeatM1ser, thank you for the feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeatM1ser View Post
    I'm a little confuse about the haste plateau for the 2nd tick of VT. I've always ready that its 2140 with dark intent, and you copied and pasted the same value into your original post....but you specifically say 2149 a few times. So, which is it, 2140 or 2149 with dark intent?
    That was me brain farting. I've changed it to read 2140 throughout the guide. Sorry about that.

    I'm curious because it could impact reforging a little bit. I expect that we will have to reach 2141 haste as a priority if we are getting dark intent, and then reforge any extra haste to mastery,if possible, to maximize DPS with the 4.2 changes. You get a 3rd tick from DP at 2283 haste, but I really don't think that extra tick of DP will be as valuable as reaching another mastery plateau...so it looks like 2141 haste is the point where a shadow priest would want to start stacking mastery(assuming they are hit capped or close).
    For the extra tick of DP... you actually get a bit more dps from using DP liberally because of the added bonus damage from Improved DP. So extending the tick doesn't get you any extra damage really. There's actually some very strong evidence that casting DP more often, even when it doesn't need refreshing, will up your dps. So I don't think it really matters to reach that particular point.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    The Old Guard - my Earthen Ring guild
    Revenant - my Echo Isles guild
    HowToPriest - a great priest forum

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee25 View Post

    For the extra tick of DP... you actually get a bit more dps from using DP liberally because of the added bonus damage from Improved DP. So extending the tick doesn't get you any extra damage really. There's actually some very strong evidence that casting DP more often, even when it doesn't need refreshing, will up your dps. So I don't think it really matters to reach that particular point.
    That was my thinking...2141 is where we all want to be with our haste....at a minimum, but if mastery proves to be more valuable in 4.2 than it did prior, then reforging some haste to reach a higher mastery level is probably the WTG. That gives me a lot of wiggle room, as I stand at 2605 haste right now and have reforged quite a bit of mastery into spirit.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    I am pretty sure the 4pc was changed to 25% increased damage instead of reduced CD:
    /facepalm

    Somehow I missed that change on the PTR.. Well mastery could overtake haste then. But at least we're sure it's either one of the two

    Glyph of Dispel Magic allows you to heal yourself while running and not going out of form, so far, I only found that usefull on Nefarian heroic when I had to jump in lava. Practically not much use, but I've used it at least a couple of times.
    Glyph of Mass Dispel: think Cho'gall .. esp if you do encounter with 2 healers this will help them a lot.
    Glyph of Pshychic Horror: Currently I'm specced into the spell, so why not glyph it as well ?
    Glyph of Fear Ward: if they ever implement fear mechanics again
    There aren't many OTHER options, but it's still somewhat of a choice.
    The Spirit tap glyph isn't bad.. on some fights, like Maloriak it can be decent in 10 man hc .. But I don't use it anymore. If they would make dusts a little cheaper maybe I would swap more ;-)

    Glyph of PW:Shield is a Prime glyph so you can't consider that one ;-)
    Last edited by Omirr; 2011-06-28 at 04:26 PM.

  18. #38
    I have updated the Stat Weights section and made several edits to the FAQs based upon the feedback I've gotten over the past two days. Slowly marching ahead...

    Omirr I will put some thought into revising the Glyph section, thank you for the suggestions.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    The Old Guard - my Earthen Ring guild
    Revenant - my Echo Isles guild
    HowToPriest - a great priest forum

  19. #39
    Thanks for the guide Kilee25, it's good to see that 4.2 info is being consolidated in one place. Also, you're probably the most polite person on the MMO-C forums!

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee25 View Post
    Hi Raynet, thank you for the feedback.

    It is my intention to respond to any questions or concerns about the guide within this guide's discussion thread. If you see something you disagree with, feel free to let me know what it is, and I will be happy to enter a discussion about it. If we can come to an agreeable stance on something within the guide that needs to be changed, I will always be willing to change it. I try very hard to not take the stance that I am right - I'm a very fallible person, but I think it's important to always strive for "the best".

    As for Simulationcraft, I actually agree with you immensely that Simulationcraft is flawed! It annoys the heck out of me, and I could write a few pages worth of complaints about all the things I wish it did better. However, I also have a lot of practical experience to back up what I am saying. I test everything in my guide in the actual game, and I play and gear exactly as I have written it. I really mean it when I say that I practice what I preach. I've worked hard to make this guide as accurate as possible. So when you say "there are things that don't pan out in tests", please let me know what you feel these are specifically, and I will do my best to address them.
    I like how you are open for discussion on things. There's too many people out there who are elitist jerks and think everything they say has to be 100% correct.

    I guess there's only 1 thing really that I have found to not make much of a difference in my DPS. it's the whole discussion of whether or not to cast MB on CD or wait for 1 orb. I have generally been waiting for 1 orb, but have tested both situations on target dummies. I find my ES buff falls off more then enough if I don't wait for 1 orb. Other people say this never happens to them on boss fights but I wonder what kind of crazy luck they have. Either way in my tests I didn't see much of a difference in DPS when I cast it on CD or when I waited for an orb so I guess it hardly matters. I will be toying with things on dummies and in boss fights I am sure as time progresses.

    Oh I also was testing with clipping MF for MB but that didn't even result in a DPS change really and it's much easier to just let the MF cast go through which is the way I have been playing for a while. I am going to run this through some more tests too though. I guess I am the type of person who would take say a 100 dps hit for a much less stressing rotation. :P

    But overall this guide rocks so great work!

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