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  1. #81
    A link to the end game spriests doing either of what you said would be more convincing. Many of them have DI in reserve though, so they have a goal of about 400 less haste.

    As for our burst, we'd have 2 situations where it's useful in PVE:
    1) In the regular rotation, just that you want MB/SW: D to hit harder. Mastery benefits MB more than crit as long as you're proccing orbs.
    2) Medium health adds you can MSp/MB spam to kill. Mastery benefits both with orbs, but you'd need SW: P proccing on a main target for orbs to pop up. However, there's other classes with burst that are usually assigned to fast nukes on adds (Arcane Mages, destro locks, etc.), whereas we don't have burst on command.

    Overall, mastery is more useful in our best situations. The nerf to multidotting has not changed that we still multidot, and buffing ES helps that. Mastery also benefits MB with orbs, which we do anyway for the ES buff, so we get some nicer numbers from that. Crit is RNG; it increases the chances of a crit, but you're never guaranteed one when you want it (MB with 3 orbs and archangel? Only gonna happen when you want it if you were flying for Alysrazor).

    Haste isn't just about those plateaus though. Ignore that we could get more ticks per duration for a second. It makes it tick faster. Everything you cast, but the same damage faster. Shorter MB casts mean more MF, faster SW: P ticks mean more chances at orbs, and shorter MF channels mean more chances at orbs. Haste makes mastery a better stat. It's usefulness is never limited to a plateau for another tick.

    Chances are the priests you're looking at that stopped stacking haste are at a point where their sim says to up another stat. It's debatable whether or not you should do that after the second plateau since the sim scaling go wonky for haste around them. Haste isn't worth as much as mastery around that time, but it is if you stacked >300 haste, because after that, haste starts ranking higher again. It becomes a question of whether or not you force your way past that mark and go haste, or do you go with sim and stack mastery (where haste is not likely to pass it again). One thing to keep in mind is that mastery scales badly in comparison to haste. It's a point where theorycrafting isn't going to be able to give you a straight answer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Power Torrent, Volcano and Theralion proc'ed, dots just refreshed. Everyone dies. Just a tank and a boss with around 200k hp. Everyone in vt yells "omg we failed omg omg" and you "don't worry amigos, my dots are steamrolling!". Boss dies while you'd say "Enjoy your loots" with a lot of purple awesomness spilling thru your voice. Just happend yesterday.

    Seriously, i thought i'd reroll warlock for 4.2, but that was the sign that i'm purple inside and i can't reroll. never.

  2. #82
    The thing about crit is you can't count on it and the only thing that helps to make crit more reliable is more crit. However, Mastery gets better when you add more haste because you get faster ticks on sw: pain and MF so the times you will go without an orb will decrease because there will be more chances to get an orb more often. So both haste and mastery make mastery better. The reason stopping at 2589 haste is being talked about it because getting to the next plateau is pretty hard to do at this point. So stacking more mastery makes sense because keeping ES up isn't a challenge when you have that much haste.

  3. #83
    Hi, thank you all for the dicussion and comments. I wanted to reply to Arlee in particular, but everyone has made some valid points. This point in particular is the crux of the discussion IMO:

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    The reason stopping at 2589 haste is being talked about it because getting to the next plateau is pretty hard to do at this point. So stacking more mastery makes sense because keeping ES up isn't a challenge when you have that much haste.
    This. You reach a point where the next break point just isn't realistically possible. Even with 391 gear, 3202 haste is just very impractical to reach. You also reach a point where you're generating enough orbs to keep ES up 100% of the time. Additionally the 4-piece bonus of the tier 12 set makes mastery a bit higher than normal, comparible if not better than haste. All of these things combined make adding a bit more mastery after you reach that haste point a viable thing to do. Maybe not the best thing to do, but it's a viable alternative and should, in theory, generate the same amount of dps, just in a different way.

    As for crit:

    The thing about crit is you can't count on it and the only thing that helps to make crit more reliable is more crit.
    While it is true that you cannot predict crit, it's not true that you cannot "rely" on it. When I look over my combat logs, my crit for all of my spells matches my character crit % within a normal margin of error. Adding crit increases your dps just as linearly as any other stat. It's just that, right now, it's our worst stat. If it were our best stat though, I would absolutely stack as much of it as I could.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    DPS Loss - my guild on Proudmoore
    The Old Guard - my guild on Earthen Ring
    Revenant - my guild on Echo Isles

  4. #84
    Yea I worded the part about crit wrong... I was meaning more that crit is just crit while haste and mastery play very nicely together. I think as I was typing my reply though Kel mind controlled me and made me think of the convos in the healing threads on crit and I lost track of what I originally meant. I didn't mean to imply that we should be avoiding crit... just that if it is a choice of haste/mastery or crit, crit loses.

  5. #85
    Stood in the Fire Veiled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dyra View Post
    I've not played 4.2 yet, but are you allowed both Intellect exalted rep rings at the same time?
    On the PTR, you could not equip both rep rings at the same time and I'm sure that hasn't changed with live.

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  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled View Post
    On the PTR, you could not equip both rep rings at the same time and I'm sure that hasn't changed with live.
    How was it even possible to reach exalted with Avengers on PTR? Or did some premades have exalted with Avengers?

  7. #87
    Nice Guide, I found it to be a useful review.

    A shackle macro I've had for to long to remember where I originally found it (BC days) automatically sets the target as focus on the first shackle and a refresh of the shackle can be cast without switching from your current target. The focus target remains till you either kill the target or shift cast the macro.

    #showtooltip Shackle Undead
    /clearfocus [mod:shift]
    /clearfocus [target=focus,dead]
    /clearfocus [target=focus,help]
    /focus [target=focus,noexists]
    /clearfocus [target=focus,help]
    /cast [target=focus,exists] Shackle Undead

  8. #88
    Stood in the Fire Veiled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    How was it even possible to reach exalted with Avengers on PTR? Or did some premades have exalted with Avengers?
    Premades came with both rings.

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  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled View Post
    Premades came with both rings.
    At least the 378 gear priest and druids didn't. The Priest premades had the brimstone rings, for those it's true that you only can equip one of the brimstone-type.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    I think as I was typing my reply though Kel mind controlled me and made me think of the convos in the healing threads on crit and I lost track of what I originally meant.
    After everything we've been through, you drop this on me? Arlee </3
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
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  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    After everything we've been through, you drop this on me? Arlee </3
    I was trying to think of something that sounded better than "I had a blind moment" >< I still <3 you though
    D'awwwww -- <3 Kel
    Last edited by Arlee; 2011-07-11 at 04:26 PM. Reason: If you miss the "o" in blond it spells blind... it is odd all my mistypes spell a different word?

  12. #92
    I guess i see now why people were very vocal about there not being a 'haste plateau'

    The less informed players (I would have other adjectives but not worth getting infracted) may see an unattainable haste number to reach and think "gee, I should just gear only enough to hit a previous plateau" when following the adage of 'just keep gearing/reforging for haste' should be what they do.

    Anyways, in general, you should keep gearing for haste even if you are not near a plateau, as it usually sims out to being worth more than mastery. And even if it doesn't, you'll eventually get to another point where haste gets really good again.

    Now, if you are near BiS so where you won't be receiving a new piece of gear every week, this generalization doesn't hold true, but you also wouldn't be mindlessly following a random person's advice on mmo-champ anyways (I'd hope.)

  13. #93
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuziza View Post
    I had 2680 haste in all 359 gear with 1 heroic piece (the bracers)
    I don't see how you could have done that except using ome weird combo of trinkets.

    Anyways, taking the BiS list from shadowpriest.com I manually added all haste rating from the gear and added reforged haste as well and I get 2594. This is without gems and enchants. You get 25 haste from the shoulder enchant and 50 haste from the gloves enchant if you choose to go for that (assuming 30% haste you would choose +65 mastery here). As far as the gemming goes, some people choose to ignore +10 Int socket bonuses and just gem +40 Intellect. Even if you DO follow those socketbonuses, I believe you had max 3 reckless gems in your gear, adding another 60 haste. This gives you a little over 2700 haste from the BiS setup.

    I still think that's a small margin for a spriest to keep your haste level when gearing up, assuming you don't have DI. (in my 25 man raids, 2 priests have this problem)

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Omirr View Post
    I don't see how you could have done that except using ome weird combo of trinkets.
    I'll have to go a bit from memory, since I've replaced a handful of pieces since 4.2 went live. Armory is also down because Blizz hates me.

    Helm: Helm of Eldritch Authority: Brilliant Inferno (30 haste socket bonus)
    Neck: Valiona's Medallion
    Shoulders: Mercurial Shoulderwraps (Tier 11): Brilliant Inferno (10 haste socket bonus)
    Back: Drape of the Twins
    Chest: Mercurial Vestment (Tier 11): Brilliant Inferno + Purified Demonseye
    Gloves: Hands of the Twilight Council: Brilliant Inferno
    Wrist: Bracers of the Burning Eye Heroic
    Waist: Belt of Arcane Storms: Brilliant Inferno
    Legs: Mercurial Leggings (Tier 11): Brilliant Inferno + Reckless Whateveritscalled
    Feet: Slippers of Moving Waters: Brilliant Inferno
    Ring 1: Ring of the Boy Emperor (Archaeology)
    Ring 2: Band of Secret Names
    Trinket 1: DMC: Volcano (reforged to haste)
    Trinket 2: Vibrant Alchemist's Stone
    Weapon: Twilight's Hammer
    Offhand: Book of Binding Will

    All reforged to haste if it's not on the item. Max int. enchants, otherwise all haste enchants and PT. Haste on the boots, I don't have issues with running speed.

    I saw the mirror drop once on regular in March I think, and then never again since. It went to the boomkin. QQ

    Edit: Wand was Finkle's Mixer Upper

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-12 at 05:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Omirr View Post
    I still think that's a small margin for a spriest to keep your haste level when gearing up, assuming you don't have DI. (in my 25 man raids, 2 priests have this problem)
    I think it's more of an issue of the competition over the cloth items. There's no cloth drops with spirit, so there's no items that are priest only. If you want to be realistic, any guild that has some officer/GM/RL oversight to loot is going to give the BiS weapons (Haste/Spirit mace, OH, and staff) to a healer first due to how few spirit items there are, particularly if there's a priest healer in the raid. Spriests are not first in line for those by a long-shot, and even if they're the ones getting the legendary, it's going to take a good while to farm those embers.

    However, there are plenty of items that do have haste (1 for each slot at least). There are situations where an spriest may settle for a non-haste item (such as Chelley's Scalpel, the BoE MH dagger) because it's a decent upgrade and reforging is available, plus you can upgrade it later with Crystallized Firestones. I'm not saying those circumstances don't happen. However, this is immensely dependent on the loot distribution system in your guild; any points based systems take a lot of the power of your spec/stats out of the consideration for what items you get, whereas a council system is dependent on OTHERS understanding your spec/stats. Personally, I'm in a loot council system and also in a raid group where 8 of the 10 raiders are officers, and I'm not one of them. I'm very well aware that I'm dead last for any sort of upgrade, not because of performance (I frequently stomp the arcane mage, boomkin, and lock-that's-getting-the-legendary-but-thinks-he-can-use-spirit-for-hit on the meters) but because they're unsure if I'm sticking around. I managed to get a decent set of gear in tier 11 anyway, simply because I knew exactly what items I wanted going into each instance; every time they offered something other than a BiS, I explained why it was a crappy alternative. This tier may change their opinion, since they're becoming aware that not rewarding me for good results may mean that I defect to another guild on our server.

    That went on a tangent a bit; my guild's a bit odd, and what they lack in professionalism for gear handouts they make up for in enjoying a raid and getting things killed.

    Anyway, back to gear. As you mentioned, you have 2 priests in a 25man raid that have this gearing issue. It really comes down to being able to get your pick of the drops.... when competing against all the other clothies who have a boner for haste for enormous loot tables from only 7 bosses. It sucks especially when there's someone in your group that wants the exact same items you do. The numbers game for drops and who you're competing against are more of the issue than what items with haste are available. That's not to say it won't be a hassle to maintain haste > 2589, but it's not necessarily going to be a problem for all spriests either. It depends on your guild and raid makeup.

    Personally, I'll be shooting for a lot of the haste upgrades first. Hit can take a dip and it doesn't affect me much, so haste/mastery upgrades aren't that bad. And don't forget we'll be getting our 2 piece (that chest is awesome) through valor, plus haste/spirit wrists and wand. Spend your valor wisely and you shouldn't take a dip if you've already achieved the haste plateau.
    Last edited by Zuziza; 2011-07-12 at 11:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Power Torrent, Volcano and Theralion proc'ed, dots just refreshed. Everyone dies. Just a tank and a boss with around 200k hp. Everyone in vt yells "omg we failed omg omg" and you "don't worry amigos, my dots are steamrolling!". Boss dies while you'd say "Enjoy your loots" with a lot of purple awesomness spilling thru your voice. Just happend yesterday.

    Seriously, i thought i'd reroll warlock for 4.2, but that was the sign that i'm purple inside and i can't reroll. never.

  15. #95
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuziza View Post
    All reforged to haste if it's not on the item. Max int. enchants, otherwise all haste enchants and PT. Haste on the boots, I don't have issues with running speed.
    Hmmm I'd never go without the run speed enchant tbh. I also saw you didn't have 4 t11 and as I predicted the alchemy trinket. Well it does add up so, yeah it was possible to get that much haste :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuziza View Post
    However, there are plenty of items that do have haste (1 for each slot at least).
    I don't see a 391 haste cloak. There is only 1 391 haste ring and the bis trinkets are both Int trinkets so no haste there either.
    Also if you're going for 4 t12, there's the Ragnaros gloves with haste but then you'll take legs without haste (doing it the other way means you can take haste legs but you'll lose 6 item levels)

    What annoys me most atm is the fact that 372 items have equal or even more haste than 378's. So while I'm upgrading and both pieces have haste, I'm still losing a bit. God I'm hoping the t12 gloves drop so I can bridge set bonuses while keeping my haste. Anyways, enough whining, we'll just have to deal with it.

    Hmm I said we'd have 2 spriest that may run into this issue as we hase 3 spriest but one always gets DI. We also have 1 lock (duh!), and 2-3 mages on our team. We have 2 healing priests on top of that, so I think we'll fight over a lot of items.
    Last edited by mmocafb5b5dbb3; 2011-07-13 at 07:50 AM.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Omirr View Post
    Hmmm I'd never go without the run speed enchant tbh. I also saw you didn't have 4 t11 and as I predicted the alchemy trinket. Well it does add up so, yeah it was possible to get that much haste :-)
    Gloves didn't sim to be worth it until we got Sinestra (for the helm), but issues came up with my guild when we got halfway through heroics that made scheduling a pain in the ass. I also mentioned the gearing priority for my guild, so even though I didn't get BiS items, I made sure to at least get that plateau. Note: I actually DID have the tier gloves enchanted and ready for use, but sims and testing showed a DPS loss with otherwise identical gear, so I never used them.

    I don't see a 391 haste cloak. There is only 1 391 haste ring and the bis trinkets are both Int trinkets so no haste there either.
    Also if you're going for 4 t12, there's the Ragnaros gloves with haste but then you'll take legs without haste (doing it the other way means you can take haste legs but you'll lose 6 item levels)
    I actually meant that there are options available while upgrading, even if they're not necessarily BiS. Trinkets are a notable exception though. (Related note: Necromantic Focus dropped a second time this week and it went to the boomkin, and last week it went to the arcane mage... I will get that damn trinket someday.) If you also have any say in what items you can upgrade first (like valor stuff, crafted boots), you can take the haste options.

    What annoys me most atm is the fact that 372 items have equal or even more haste than 378's. So while I'm upgrading and both pieces have haste, I'm still losing a bit. God I'm hoping the t12 gloves drop so I can bridge set bonuses while keeping my haste. Anyways, enough whining, we'll just have to deal with it.

    Hmm I said we'd have 2 spriest that may run into this issue as we hase 3 spriest but one always gets DI. We also have 1 lock (duh!), and 2-3 mages on our team. We have 2 healing priests on top of that, so I think we'll fight over a lot of items.
    Definitely agree with you there, which is a bit annoying. My guess is Blizz did a doubletake when they realized just how high our haste ratings had gotten in just the first tier of raiding and this is an attempt to slow it down so it's not absurd by the end of the expansion. Considering that mastery will be catching up to haste, it's really not that bad overall. It just makes this one plateau a bit tricky while we gear.

    And damn, you have way too many clothies in one raid group. That's just nuts.
    Last edited by Zuziza; 2011-07-13 at 11:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Power Torrent, Volcano and Theralion proc'ed, dots just refreshed. Everyone dies. Just a tank and a boss with around 200k hp. Everyone in vt yells "omg we failed omg omg" and you "don't worry amigos, my dots are steamrolling!". Boss dies while you'd say "Enjoy your loots" with a lot of purple awesomness spilling thru your voice. Just happend yesterday.

    Seriously, i thought i'd reroll warlock for 4.2, but that was the sign that i'm purple inside and i can't reroll. never.

  17. #97
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuziza View Post
    I actually meant that there are options available while upgrading
    Well not a big incentive to upgrade 372's atm so I am aiming for the 391's mostly.
    Although my guild recognized the passing on higher ilvl items and decided to give half the dkp discount if the upgrade is only 7 ilvl or lower. I may consider getting some upgrades... I think I'm gonna get those crit/haste boots since I'm buying the t12 chest tonight probably and that IS an upgrade on haste by a lot.

    I was gonna buy the wand with valors as well this week but I think I should go for tier gloves maybe.. BH is cleared every week but the stats on them are just too yummy...

  18. #98
    Aren't the crafted boots (spi/haste) BiS until heroics anyway? I'm waiting for the price of the embers to drop a bit so I can get them crafted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Power Torrent, Volcano and Theralion proc'ed, dots just refreshed. Everyone dies. Just a tank and a boss with around 200k hp. Everyone in vt yells "omg we failed omg omg" and you "don't worry amigos, my dots are steamrolling!". Boss dies while you'd say "Enjoy your loots" with a lot of purple awesomness spilling thru your voice. Just happend yesterday.

    Seriously, i thought i'd reroll warlock for 4.2, but that was the sign that i'm purple inside and i can't reroll. never.

  19. #99
    Deleted
    well spirit and crit are about equal in PP value, so technically little difference. But even if the crafteds are slightly better (it won't be a LOT better for sure) then I'd still have to get 4 of those embers. They are really expensive and will stay expensive until blizzard puts them up for valor points.
    In my guild all embers to the guild bank and they'll give them to the people that need them the most. I won't even request them, no point imo when there's similar boots dropping from the first boss

  20. #100
    ^^This pretty much.

    No point in wasting 4 Embers for a LONG time when you can easily get sidegrades.

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