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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Twintop View Post
    That sure looks like 50%+ to me, which is the definition of "most". Additionally, I didn't say that the scaling weights from the Double DoT simming option would be the *only* stat weights I would use, I just said that I was leaning towards using them. I.E.: in conjunction with single-target weights, just like how I currently average HelterSkelter and Patchwerk sims for single-target.
    Well, not really. On Beth'liac you don't constantly multi dot, only when the spinners are up and you can't sustain multi dotting the small spiders while Mind Searing. On Rhyolith, you also can't sustain multi dotting while Mind Searing and killing sparks. Even if you multi dot on Rhyolith, it will only be for a small amount of time. So Shannox is the only "true" multi-dot fight. The other fights are not like Valiona and Theralion and Ascendant Council so I wouldn't say simming a 2 DoT target fight to be optimal if you consider how Fireland bosses are at the moment. Naturally, it can change if you look at heroic fights but I don't think so.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Well, not really. On Beth'liac you don't constantly multi dot, only when the spinners are up and you can't sustain multi dotting the small spiders while Mind Searing. On Rhyolith, you also can't sustain multi dotting while Mind Searing and killing sparks. Even if you multi dot on Rhyolith, it will only be for a small amount of time. So Shannox is the only "true" multi-dot fight. The other fights are not like Valiona and Theralion and Ascendant Council so I wouldn't say simming a 2 DoT target fight to be optimal if you consider how Fireland bosses are at the moment. Naturally, it can change if you look at heroic fights but I don't think so.
    If you're below for Beth, you can multidot the spinners, then get back to killing the drone or AOE'ing the spiderlings. My group's never had issues with healing on first phase, so Spinners aren't high on the priority list. On Ryolith, I'm assigned to adds only, so I keep VT and SW: P on both legs so long as it doesn't interfere with killing adds. Alys is impossible to multidot while flying, Baleroc has no adds, and Majordomo it's a horrible idea to multidot.

    Telling someone that the way they calculate things is wrong helps no one. You have to realize that there's more than 1 strat available for a fight. Just because it isn't optimal for you in particular does not invalidate the work someone puts into a list like this. Pointing out that the values of a doubledot sim would be unreliable for particular strats is worth saying, since anyone who uses that particular strat may want to rethink their priorities. That's helpful, but don't phrase it as if it's true for everyone.

    As a final note, Twintop said he did not center his values only on double dotting sims. They are taken into consideration, but they're not the sole cause of the values in the list.
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Power Torrent, Volcano and Theralion proc'ed, dots just refreshed. Everyone dies. Just a tank and a boss with around 200k hp. Everyone in vt yells "omg we failed omg omg" and you "don't worry amigos, my dots are steamrolling!". Boss dies while you'd say "Enjoy your loots" with a lot of purple awesomness spilling thru your voice. Just happend yesterday.

    Seriously, i thought i'd reroll warlock for 4.2, but that was the sign that i'm purple inside and i can't reroll. never.

  3. #23
    While the haste boost is gigantic for our class, my guild chooses to send only melee in the air on Alysrazor. This means I am on the ground the entire fight where it's multidot madness all over. Dpsing the druid whenever it's up, while dotting up both the boss and the hatchling

    Ontopic: That list is really nice, esp since shadowpriest.com doesn't even try to redeem itself as -THE- source for sp's.
    Last edited by Omirr; 2011-07-15 at 09:46 AM.

  4. #24
    Mechagnome Exiztence's Avatar
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    Why would you send melee up ? Ranged benefit alot more from it, pretty bad decission right there.

    Retired; Muerte of Loot FTW, Exizt of Pacifism, Exiztence of Vortex.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuziza View Post
    If you're below for Beth, you can multidot the spinners, then get back to killing the drone or AOE'ing the spiderlings. My group's never had issues with healing on first phase, so Spinners aren't high on the priority list. On Ryolith, I'm assigned to adds only, so I keep VT and SW: P on both legs so long as it doesn't interfere with killing adds.

    Telling someone that the way they calculate things is wrong helps no one. You have to realize that there's more than 1 strat available for a fight. Just because it isn't optimal for you in particular does not invalidate the work someone puts into a list like this. Pointing out that the values of a doubledot sim would be unreliable for particular strats is worth saying, since anyone who uses that particular strat may want to rethink their priorities. That's helpful, but don't phrase it as if it's true for everyone.

    As a final note, Twintop said he did not center his values only on double dotting sims. They are taken into consideration, but they're not the sole cause of the values in the list.
    Multi dotting the spinners instead of AoEing the spiderlings is sub-optimal and even then you aren't multi dotting for the most of the fight anyways. Spending time applying DoTs on spinners instead of searing spiderlings would be a DPS loss I think, but I have only done the fight once as shadow priest(one shot) and once as healer so I might be wrong here but looking at other top logs it seems they don't keep DoTs on spinners all the time either (f e http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1819&e=2279). On Rhyolith I am also assigned to adds only and keeping DoTs constantly on the legs while Searing and killing spark is not sustainable, mana wise. If you have any log to show that it is, please show. Here is mine http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...2/?s=173&e=489.

    I don't see the point using 2 DoT sim results in conjunction with single target to be very good since most of the fights in Firelands are not good for multi dotting. Sure, you CAN multi dot if you want on most fights but it is not optimal. Taking sub-optimal play into consideration to justify using 2 DoT sim in conjunction with single target sim results doesn't sound good to me. It is like giving Mastery a much higher value for disc priest because some people only know how to press PW:S.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2011-07-15 at 12:24 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Multi dotting the spinners instead of AoEing the spiderlings is sub-optimal and even then you aren't multi dotting for the most of the fight anyways.
    Umm... unless your group is such that you don't have to ever dps the spiderlings at all... in our 10 man we have a mage and a hunter take those out so I rarely have to ever think about looking at the spiderlings let alone doing any dps to them at all. So for me multi-dotting the spinners and the drone and then focusing one of them is optimal. And heck... even if you are on spiderling duty, it's not really that difficult to toss some DoTs up on the drone and spinners between spiderling spawns.

    That aside it is actually valuable to have values that account for some multi-dotting because honestly whenever possible (and by possible I mean doesn't ruin the strat) we do it. No the values shouldn't be based solely on it, but that isn't what Twin is talking about at all
    Last edited by Arlee; 2011-07-15 at 02:30 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Umm... unless your group is such that you don't have to ever dps the spiderlings at all... in our 10 man we have a mage and a hunter take those out so I rarely have to ever think about looking at the spiderlings let alone doing any dps to them at all. So for me multi-dotting the spinners and the drone and then focusing one of them is optimal. And heck... even if you are on spiderling duty, it's not really that difficult to toss some DoTs up on the drone and spinners between spiderling spawns.

    That aside it is actually valuable to have values that account for some multi-dotting because honestly whenever possible (and by possible I mean doesn't ruin the strat) we do it. No the values shouldn't be based solely on it, but that isn't what Twin is talking about at all
    If you think that is optimal, okay.

    Why would the values be valuable when there is only one fight where we can multi dot constantly? The other fights are not even close to a "real" multi dot fight.

  8. #28
    Just for clarification, the stat weights above *do not include double dotting* as of this post, they are still a simple average of a Patchwerk sim and a HelterSkelter sim. This weekend I'm going to be doing new sims that take in to account all of the changes/new modes in Simulationcraft 4.2.0-2 and above, 6 in total--Single Target Patchwerk, Single Target Low-Movement (HelterSkelter), Single Target High-Movement (Helterskelter), Double-DoT Patchwerk, Double-DoT Low-Movement, and Double-DoT High-Movement--and will be doing a simple average of all of these values.

    Why, might you ask?

    The original Best Raid Gear Available lists (from ShadowPriest.com) were based on the simulations from *only* Patchwerk fights, so this was my basis in the beginning. Towards the end of 4.0.6, it dawned on me that there are just as many, if not more, movement heavy fights in T11 (Magmaw, ODS, Atramedes, Maloriak, Nefarion, V&T, Ascendant Council, Cho'gall, Al'Akir) than those that are much more Patchwerk style (Chimaeron, Halfus, Sinestra, Conclave), and that each of these fights have movement of *some kind* involved, so you can't lump them all in "heavy movement" or "tank'n'spank". Because of this, I started averaging the results from Patchwerk and HelterSkelter to provide a more accurate depiction of stat weights in a general sense across all fights, rather than lean towards those where you stand still all the time.

    Following this trend, I noticed that in SimulationCraft 4.2.0-1 the devs introduced "Low Movement" and "High Movement" in place of Helterskelter. This makes far more sense, since most of the fights in T11 can be categorized as "Low Movement". With SimulationCraft 4.2.0-2, preliminary double-dotting has been introduced, which also makes a lot of sense as well, since you can categorize most fights in to "those with multiple DoT targets" and "those with single targets". There is a combination of all 6 of these possibilities in nearly every tier, so accounting for them in to a general simulation makes sense.

    The stat weights that will be used for my list will be geared for "overall, average performance over a raid", not "overall, average performance over a bossfight". As I've said before, this list is a tool, not a replacement for your own simming or gearing decisions. If you're lucky enough to have surplus gear, you'll probably get better results in a raid from mixing/matching pieces to min/max your stats to match the type of fight you're encountering (I.E.: double-dotting Patchwerk vs. single target high movement).

  9. #29
    You multidot every encounter on heroic other than shannox and baleroc. Spamming vt on multiple mobs while weaving in mind sears is also very easy to sustain (read: rhyolith).

    http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...Shadow_Priest/

    Keep in mind that whenever you take more than 10% of your health in damage you get a large mana return. Tie that in with sniping sw:d on low adds and you'll be more than fine. Oh, and the new 2pc!

  10. #30

    Thanks!

    Just wanted to thank you for all the hard work you're putting into this list -it's greatly appreciated.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    If you think that is optimal, okay.
    What you think it would make more sense for me single dps each spinner down and then switch to the drone? Care to elaborate on that? Also, see Nadril's comment... multi-dotting is still and should be heavily used.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by nadrii View Post
    You multidot every encounter on heroic other than shannox and baleroc. Spamming vt on multiple mobs while weaving in mind sears is also very easy to sustain (read: rhyolith).

    http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...Shadow_Priest/

    Keep in mind that whenever you take more than 10% of your health in damage you get a large mana return. Tie that in with sniping sw:d on low adds and you'll be more than fine. Oh, and the new 2pc!
    I did note that things might change on heroic. 7% on each leg out of your total damage does not make it a multi dotting fight. What I mean by 2 DoT multi dotting like simulationcraft is simulating is keeping VT and SW:P on two targets and refreshing them. How is Ragnaros HC a multi dot fight? Is Majordomo a multi dot fight on heroic? Are you multi dotting while flying on Alysrazor?

  13. #33
    Mechagnome Veiled's Avatar
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    Never seen an argument like this one in a bis thread before.

    This list is a tool and not a bible. You have to use your best judgement when gearing yourself and as such, I'm assuming you'd take single target/multi-dotting into account. 'Nuff said.

    MoP Guides, Raiding and Pre-Raiding BiS Lists, Theorycrafting, Healing/DPS Help & More!

  14. #34
    Now you're just forming arbitrary requirements for something to be considered a multi-dot encounter. To me, anytime I have to dot more than one target it's a multi-dot encounter. So yes, 99% of encounters are multi-dot encounters by my standards.

    For rhyolith you can vt the small adds into a mind sear as well as maintain dots on the big adds and legs at all times if you'd like.
    For domo you dot the cats, especially in heroic, otherwise your tank will die when you decide to depend on melee cleave alone.

  15. #35
    The Patient
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    Was in air as Alysrazor, found it rather easy to drop a VT + SWP on each Hatchling whilst maintaining the stacks from the rings, on the note of lack of multi-dot in the encounter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Duke
    Hail to the King, Baby!
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    I remember a guy like you who used to go around forcing his beliefs on others. He started up a few camps in Germany back in the 40s and it didn't turn out well for him in the end.

    Let this be a warning to you.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by nadrii View Post
    Now you're just forming arbitrary requirements for something to be considered a multi-dot encounter. To me, anytime I have to dot more than one target it's a multi-dot encounter. So yes, 99% of encounters are multi-dot encounters by my standards.

    For rhyolith you can vt the small adds into a mind sear as well as maintain dots on the big adds and legs at all times if you'd like.
    For domo you dot the cats, especially in heroic, otherwise your tank will die when you decide to depend on melee cleave alone.
    You're cute. How is that in any way similar to the multi dot scenario Simulationcraft simulates? How does you definition have anything to do with what we were discussing? The thing I was talking about was that no encounters are similar to the Ascendant and Valiona encounters, if you read my posts, so I don't even see a reason for your first post unless you wanted to bring up a new topic. If you first post was to say that I was incorrect not to consider those multi dot fights, then please read my definition of it else there is no point discussing. The "arbitrary reuirements" are just comparing it to SimulationCrafts simulation.

  17. #37
    Mechagnome Exiztence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    If you think that is optimal, okay.
    Most optimal way to deal with spinners is to taunt them down stack on top of drone and AoE them down. (25m perspective)

    Retired; Muerte of Loot FTW, Exizt of Pacifism, Exiztence of Vortex.

  18. #38
    Thanks for this list. Used to see these every patch on shadowpriest.com, sad to see it has has kinda died off

  19. #39
    Updated list is now posted. 4 sims, Patchwerk Single Target, Patchwerk Double-DoT, HelterSkelter Single Target, and HelterSkelter Double-DoT, are included in the scale factors. I'll look in to using low and high movement fights in place of HelterSkelter once they've matured a bit.

    Also included in this update are the resimmed trinket values. Enjoy!

  20. #40
    Wow heroic VPLC dropped like a rock. Thanks for the update

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