separate cuz then ppl get moar loots and then me and alot of other jc/ench will make even moar goldz!!!
Shared (10s and 25s on one lockout)
Seperate (Can do 10s and 25s seperately each week)
separate cuz then ppl get moar loots and then me and alot of other jc/ench will make even moar goldz!!!
I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.
10s are killing 25s because most guilds are exclusively 10man guilds now, and thus only need to keep like 15 active raiders on the roster, instead of like 30+ in a 25man guild.
It's rather difficult to find a 25man guild on most servers now. They exist, but not nearly as common as 10man guilds.
I miss 25 man progression. End of the day, fights still have unforgiving mechanics with twice the people to mess up.I rarely did alt 10s, no enough time. I'm in the last 25 man progression guild on the server. Mmo got a bit less M
My server has lost the 3 major 25man guilds (one being my own) who dominated throughout Wotlk and BC due to being crippled by attendance issues and players leaving the game, leaving only one guild (a 10man) of the same level of progression left.
edit: Toas summed it up pretty well.
Separate. I actually like raiding and they cut the time I spend doing it in half.
Nice move, Blizzard.
From a lifelong 25 raider who started in Vanilla the shared lockout is nice as you don't have to do the same instance twice, but its bad because 10m is inherently easier to do then 25 man for a few reasons.
1. Easier to organize 10 people compared to 25
2. Any fight that is space dependent is easier because less people = more space
3. Fights are setup for groups that don't have optimal setup of players
Its tiring hearing the 10m guilds on my server talk about how they are more "progressed" then the 25 man guilds but they fail to realize if you take the best people out of a 25 guild and put them in a 10m they will pass them and then some in absolutely no time at all. We did an experiment this week and took our alts who were in nothing but ZA/ZG and valor gear and passed up the 10m guild who was in heroic gear. I think that proves the point that 10m needs to be seriously looked at when it comes to progression totals. Personally I'd be in favor of blizzard totally splitting up the paths of 10m and 25m raiding in such a way that they each have different paths to the main protagonist, and everything is different.
Someone had the idea during ICC when this came up that just for examples sake 10m can fight arthas but he is without his sword while 25m fights him sword and all. I'd rather have this because then it removes the competition entirely between 10m and 25m guilds which I think for the communities sake would eliminate alot of childish behavior.
I expect to be part of a minority when I say 'shared'. IMO it makes the boss fights that much more unique when you can only kill them once per week like we did in TBC and Vanilla, a raid boss should be killed once per week and that is all IMO. If you want to run it again that badly, then play another toon and do it.
Separate is far superior for many reasons.
-Mains can do/help with alt runs, or mains can do pugs.
-Promotes more pugging = more active server = more people keep playing, ect.
-Weekend mount/achievement/dick around runs!?
-More to do in general when there is alot of down time and everything is on farm, or towards the end of a tier/expansions when alot of people fade off.
I honestly don't understand why blizzard did this is in the first place. Even from a business stand point it doesnt make sense. They obviously didnt want to make separate mechanics and separate loot because it would use up too much of their "resources" (like they have a shortage in the first place?), but even if mechanics/loot was the same like it is now it would still be much better off if they were not shared and just lowered/altered drop rates and point gains.
They are trying to make 10s and 25s equal but they will never be. They are like apples and oranges.
Im a raid leader on a server where 25 main is currently dieing out. I think we have 4 guilds on horde side and probably one or two on alliance (although alliance outnumber us 2:1). I much preferred the seperate lock out system as a raid leader. We dont do PTR and going on a 10 man with my main before the 25 run provided me lots of information regarding boss mechanics that you just cant learn from watching videos. Now though we are doing this on the fly, which isnt a problem, it just slows us down a lilttle bit.
I dont want to get drawn into a 10 man vs 25 man debate but the way I see it is that the categories can never ever be balanced. Sure you can tweak a few numbers here and there but there are multiple things that are just plain easier in 10 man. The issue I have with the shared lock out system is that the Realm First achis are also shared. As a 25 man gulid it is quite strange to find a 10 man guild as your main competition for Realm Firsts. This week we did our normal 3 days a week for 4 hours, and managed to progress fairly well on the new content, whereas our main competitor took 10 ppl, spent 16 hours a day twice and cleared all 7. How can a 25 man guild compete with that? Dont tell me the option is there for us to do as well. It is a damn site easier to get 10 ppl online during the day than 25 and keep them there all day long.
Now, I dont want to take away from their achievements. If they want to do that then good luck to them, they have the time, the energy and the skill to do it. We physically cant compete with that, but Blizz is putting us into a position where we ARE competing with them since there is only one Realm First achievement.
Solution. For me, keep the shared lock out. I have no real issues with it even though I preferred the seperate raid IDS. But I do think BLizz should seperate the 10 and 25 man Realm First Achi.
The shared system has vastly improved 10 man raiding. And for this reason I love it.
10 Man was a new feature in The Burning Crusade, and barely went anywhere, while in Wrath of the Lich King it was nothing but a joke. 10 Man could be done much easier, faster and in far worse gear then that of 25 Man. Now, I like that fact that actually 10 man is more difficult then 25.
I've always found 25 to just be a mess. A clumsy RNG based over-healing mess that takes very little skill, and more sheer numbers to down a boss. This is just my opinion, I prefer small groups of highly skilled players where every action could lead to a wipe or just not downing the boss in time.
I prefer the new system, I prefer the new 10 Man. I hope it stays.
Your argument is basically, "I gear my char's too fast, so please Blizzard, give me unfair advantage to get even more gear via non-shared lockouts between 10 and 25's compared to guild's only doing 10's. Could you do this for me?"
PVE progression in BC was:
1) 5man Normals
2) 5man Heroics
3) 10 mans (Kara)
4) 25 mans (Mag+Gruul)
A similar model was used in early WOTLK before they became shared.
While the system was flawed, it was a better system overall for teaching newer players teamwork because 10 mans only existed for that purpose. Now theyre filled with players as egotistical and elitist as the 25 mans, and newer players get stuck in the current system where Blizzard has to constantly nerf content to facilitate people not being as good.
I think its a good thing that 10mans are as hard and give the same loot as 25. I always hated having to do 25mans just to get the gear, when I only actually liked doing 10mans
Yes, 10man was a teaching tool for raiding back then. And yes, this is partially responsible for current nerfs (in a sense that new raiders aren't being taught to raid "properly", and 10man's being more accessible than the old mandatory 25man's) but let's face it, most of times, it is only natural that Blizzard nerf's content to make it more accessible at some point.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, you have good point that, making 25man's non-mandatory for getting the "best" gear has, infact made the raiding playerbase more unstable and Blizzard is too keen on giving the nerfbat because of the newer generation of raiders that are struggling with the content.
All pro's and con's taken into account, I still feel the raids should share the same lockout. That's what works for me without giving the feeling "I have to do 25man's to stay at the cutting edge".
Last edited by Keulanaama; 2011-07-02 at 11:50 AM.
I'm in a 10 man guild now, so ofc I like the ilvl on the loot is the same. That said, I miss the old lockout system. I feel like, there's less for me to do as a PvE'er who only plays this game to raid. I had to level up an alt, so I at least could raid some more.
I know Blizz didn't wanna "force" people to raid 24/7 to keep up but come on, shouldn't that essentially be the players choice?
I see your comment as if you are trying to attack my opinion on the basis, that what you are suggesting actually gave more freedom. But the way I see it, current system is the one that gives more freedom. Especially when leveling alts is so easy and the world has been remade anyway. That makes it a whole new experience to lvl an alt.
"I know Blizz didn't wanna "force" people to raid 24/7 to keep up but come on, shouldn't that essentially be the players choice?" Isn't this exactly that? Players choice. Do the raids with main. Wanna do more? Do the remade content and level and alt and raid with that.
Last edited by Keulanaama; 2011-07-02 at 01:10 PM.
I used to do 25s and then felt obligated to also run 10s just to get the 1-2 BiS pieces and w/e other gear there was in them, so I much prefer the current system.
A lot of people think that 10s are killing 25s but as someone who's ran a 25m guild and a 10m guild I don't mind that, it's certainly a much bigger headache and pain to manage 25s so I would prefer it if I was not forced to do so if I wanted to remain competitive. And if anyone wants to put up with that headache there are compensations in place, such as more valor/tier pieces, the ability to switch to 10m if a certain boss is easier for it and just having more people online to contribute to the guild.
The reason we can't have 10man and 25man normal and heroic with separate lockout, is because it would introduce 4 different ilvls of gear, in one tier of raiding, making the inflation of stats too high. That's why I liked it the way it was at the start of Wrath.. 25man was "heroic" and 10man was normal. I did 25man with my guild, and could pug 10mans at the end of the week.