1. #1

    [Advice needed] - Alysrazor - Boosting tank dps

    Hey champions.

    Since you guys gave me some kickass news on Lord Rhy which we then 4 shotted down from 2 hours of wiping, i have come back yet again with another simple question, that most of you can probably answer that have done Alysrazor .




    1. Alysrazor = Can be healed with 2 healers considering all firyoroblast gets interrupted? (yes i don't know the exact name of the spell)
    2. Our tanks are doing around 75k dps each (Warrior + DK)- According to world of logs some people are doing way way more (85-100k) - How do we go about this? Spec more dps orientated? use dps trinkets? use dps consumable? I also tried to look up those tanks up high in the dps list but they seem to have normal specs (which they probably changed for other boss's).

    Reason for 2nd is because i hear people say that tanks should be able to take out the adds by them self's and i believe it is possible but then the tanks needs to do about the 85-90k dps output as we always get into the Tornado phase with adds having 5-10% hp and most of the times they die during the running after a tornado part.



    3. What % should Alysrazor be at when she lands and when she flies back up with 1 dps flying only! (So we can check if he is slacking)
    4. Which class would benefit most from the Haste + Crit from the "flying" part of the fight? we're currently trying a Shadow priest due to his raid healing abilities.



    Thanks again

    *edit* - If anyone can post a link to a talent build for either a DK or Warrior that would be greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Anyone benefitting from a shitload of haste + crit should get into the air, you should be able to kill Alysrazor within 3 down phases or shortly into the 4th normal phase (aim for 33% damage down after each ground phase.

    We sort our feathers like this:
    3feathers to the one flying.
    1 feather to each of the tanks
    and the last feather to the healer that's assigned to "fill in the gaps" or raidhealing/disspelling and so on.

    Second time feathers come (after cleave) you can either give 3feathers to the rest of your dps or give 2 of your healers 3 feathers to go really mad (1healer having 1 from the start) I advice you give feathers to dps since they're running around the room chasing down adds and the 2 tank healers hardly has to move anyways.

    You should ALLWAYS have 1 feather in reserve if your flying player lose his flying buff.

    You can "cheese" the hatchlings simply by having a holy paladin spec into denounce (to make a mob unable to crit) and have a dps tank it and then it's going to be dead in roughly 1/4 of the time. You'll need a tank anyways though for the ground tanking phase and eating worms. with dps being as high as 140k hp in cataclysm there should be no worries about a dps tank getting 2shotted either (tantrum, cleave and worm breath is dangerous).
    ^
    it's not adviced you do this though since it's hardly needed and it's got many ways to fuck your life.

    if you're having trouble killing the hatchlings in time you can have the flying player fly down and burn some damage on them or have a feral druid tanking (and going catform in p2 for dps)

  3. #3
    Brewmaster
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    About 2), our DK tank had the same problem. I as protadin and 6.x% hit had no issues with 100k+, leaving me "plenty" of time to go and assist him with downing his. But a few times we had to bring it down during the tornado phase, so I would suggest your tanks to put on their hit/exp gear (or at least the few pieces they should have automatically by now through upgrading old upgrades). Cooldown management helps. I didn't pop wings until my vengeance bar got decently high for one.

    And 4), we had a shadow priest flying up in the air as well. Worked like a charm. He was the logical choice since he's normally our highest DPS'er as well.
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  4. #4
    1. 2 healing is possible but unless you're healers are bored this will probably cause more problems than it will solve while you are still learning the encounter. We tried this after struggling with the fight for an hour and it definitely gave negative results; there are better options to give you a better shot at downing the boss.

    2. This was our biggest problem with the fight; having adds going up for very long into p2 was definitely the source of our wipes. We didn't have problems with our warrior downing his add, but we did have problems with our feral druid. Eventually he started using a dps trinket and started using a more dps-oriented rotation rather than a survival-oriented one. A lot of this will come down to your tanks becoming more familiar with the fight over time and therefore having to spend less time surviving and more time dps'ing. I've seen a couple tanks switch to dps stances (battle stance for executes, cat form, frost presence) while the adds have the satiated buff, but we didn't try this ourselves so I can't say how beneficial it was. If you still have problems with the tanks not being able to take down the adds, start taking people out of the sky to help with adds during p1, or see if your melee on the ground can spend more time on adds in between druids.

    3. I'm not entirely sure how much dps I was doing during p1 in the air, but I know between the fire mage and myself (shadowpriest) who were in the air we brought the boss down about 30% or more per air phase. Once you are confident in your p1 skills you may have the option to send a second person up in the air to bring the boss down to only two or less burnout phases.

    4. In 25m, it would appear to be better to send classes up which would benefit the most from infinite resources and haste, but are not pet classes (since the pet won't do anything the whole phase). Frost dk's, fire mages, shadowpriests, ret paladins, and rogues are all good choices. Really you should be sending your best dps up, as they will probably do more damage than a less skilled dps, even if their class may be better suited to the task. Unfortunately however, in 10m you don't have a lot of options. You are almost certainly sending up your best ranged dps since all melee will probably be needed on the ground for interrupts. I wouldn't send a shadow priest just because of vampiric embrace though. They benefit more from the haste than most casters so they're a natural choice, but don't base it on the heals.

    Our biggest problem was having the tanks adjust to tanking the birds while maximizing their dps. Once the tanks become comfortable with dodging worms and clearing tantrum they should be able to put more effort into killing the mobs quickly. We spent about 2 hours wiping because tanks were dying during the tornado phase due to having the adds still alive and called the raid for the night. The next day after we discussed strategy and made it clear that killing adds was a priority, we came in a one-shot the fight. In addition to tanks maximizing their dps done, if your raid can cover interrupts without every dps being on druids you can have a full-time hatchling dps'er to help the tanks out.

    I would really like to know where you think your raid's problem lies so I could give more specific advice. It seems like you are worried about dps in the air phase, which I wouldn't consider a priority while learning the fight. Once you can sustain an entire rotation of phases, you have mastered the fight and it is all repetition from there. I believe the enrage timer is 15 minutes or something ridiculous, so you can drag out the fight for a total of 5 burnouts if your control of the fight is sufficiently good. That said, if your raid dps is exceptionally high and you don't have trouble making it through the first burnout, you can send every one of your dps up during the second air phase and just leave the tanks/healers to die. So long as your flyers are proficient and don't hit enough clouds to require healing, you can sacrifice the ground team in order to kill her before a second burnout. The encounter does not bug or reset if all raid members are in the air and I imagine you could do at least 50% of the boss's health so long as every dps got up there. This is a rather extreme strategy that is more of a band-aid fix just to kill the boss and won't help you out on hm, but it's still a viable kill option on normal.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Threeosexy View Post
    Hey champions.


    Reason for 2nd is because i hear people say that tanks should be able to take out the adds by them self's and i believe it is possible but then the tanks needs to do about the 85-90k dps output as we always get into the Tornado phase with adds having 5-10% hp and most of the times they die during the running after a tornado part.


    *edit* - If anyone can post a link to a talent build for either a DK or Warrior that would be greatly appreciated.
    Only answering this part of the question;

    I do 90 - 100k dps as a blood tank in full tank gear with a normal tank spec. Our druid tank does 100 to 110k dps. I do prioritize dps to an extent unless I am at risk of death then do what I can to stay alive.

    I think at current gear levels, tanks would have a hard time killing the adds on their own. I think 80% is a reasonable amount to expect from your tank. In our group dps contributes the rest. There is a decent amount of time between humanoid spawns where there is time to attack the hatchling if your dps is decent. Also, dot classes should be able to help with all once they pick up a couple feathers.
    Last edited by Kabria; 2011-07-02 at 07:00 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Threeosexy View Post
    Hey champions.

    Since you guys gave me some kickass news on Lord Rhy which we then 4 shotted down from 2 hours of wiping, i have come back yet again with another simple question, that most of you can probably answer that have done Alysrazor .




    1. Alysrazor = Can be healed with 2 healers considering all firyoroblast gets interrupted? (yes i don't know the exact name of the spell)
    2. Our tanks are doing around 75k dps each (Warrior + DK)- According to world of logs some people are doing way way more (85-100k) - How do we go about this? Spec more dps orientated? use dps trinkets? use dps consumable? I also tried to look up those tanks up high in the dps list but they seem to have normal specs (which they probably changed for other boss's).

    Reason for 2nd is because i hear people say that tanks should be able to take out the adds by them self's and i believe it is possible but then the tanks needs to do about the 85-90k dps output as we always get into the Tornado phase with adds having 5-10% hp and most of the times they die during the running after a tornado part.



    3. What % should Alysrazor be at when she lands and when she flies back up with 1 dps flying only! (So we can check if he is slacking)
    4. Which class would benefit most from the Haste + Crit from the "flying" part of the fight? we're currently trying a Shadow priest due to his raid healing abilities.



    Thanks again

    *edit* - If anyone can post a link to a talent build for either a DK or Warrior that would be greatly appreciated.
    We did this with 3 healers, and 1 dps up flying. We had 2 "nuke" phases, and the boss died a little before 3rd. Tanks were me as prot warr and blood dk.

    DK was having troubles downing he's add alone in time, I didn't really have problems. Usually managed to pull about 90-109k on it. Gear makes some difference there but nothing major.

    Warrior tank in general shouldn't have troubles with killing the add in time. I didn't use any specific dps specc for this. Neither did DK. Just our normal tanking speccs and tanking gear.

    DK doesn't benefit as much from the sheer dmg % increase since it doesn't affect rune regen speed in anyway. Can't really go unholy presence either for faster rune regen because crit immunity is only in blood presence.

    So according to my own experience, warr should have no troubles with the add and solo killing it, dk might need help from dps.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Threeosexy View Post
    1. Alysrazor = Can be healed with 2 healers considering all firyoroblast gets interrupted? (yes i don't know the exact name of the spell)
    Yes although not needed

    2. Our tanks are doing around 75k dps each (Warrior + DK)- According to world of logs some people are doing way way more (85-100k) - How do we go about this? Spec more dps orientated? use dps trinkets? use dps consumable? I also tried to look up those tanks up high in the dps list but they seem to have normal specs (which they probably changed for other boss's).
    They need to respec and reglyph for more single target DPS. Put on some DPS trinket or something and reforge what's needed to get hi/exp cap and then just maximize their DPS. As a prot pally I kill my add solo with ~20 sec to spare and our warrior varies anywhere form killing it right on time to 5-10 sec after tornado starts (although he didn't reforge, etc.)

    I can't link you a War/DK spec, they should know their own talent trees well enough to know what talents give DPS. Just go take them, on this fight DPS stats ARE survival stats because more DPS means less tauntrums.

    3. What % should Alysrazor be at when she lands and when she flies back up with 1 dps flying only! (So we can check if he is slacking)
    People have done it in 1 burn phase and in 3 burn phases, everything is doable. Short answer, she should be as low as possible. So long as your 1 DPS is getting 25 stacks while up in the air then they're doing fine so far.

    4. Which class would benefit most from the Haste + Crit from the "flying" part of the fight? we're currently trying a Shadow priest due to his raid healing abilities.
    Arcane mages would due to the infinite mana. Melee classes also work due to their infinite HoPo, Energy, Runes etc. but most guilds can't afford to lose a melee off of interrupts. We used an Arc Mage and a Ret Pally


    Also as an aside, if you're feeling a need to 2 heal it with only 1 person up in the air then your group DPS are slacking hardcore. We did 3 heals, 2 people air and 3 people on ground. We let 1-2 casts get off (easily healable) and still got through ground phase fine while the 1 people in air make the fight end much quicker if they play well. However it's worth noting that air is much harder with 2 than with 1, they will have to be synchronized well in order to both get 25 stacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keulanaama View Post
    DK doesn't benefit as much from the sheer dmg % increase since it doesn't affect rune regen speed in anyway. Can't really go unholy presence either for faster rune regen because crit immunity is only in blood presence.

    So according to my own experience, warr should have no troubles with the add and solo killing it, dk might need help from dps.
    That doesn't make sense, they might not benefit from the rune regen but they still get 1000% DPS. 1000% is 1000%, that's the same for everyone. I can easily do it as a paladin I'm sure a DK should be able to as well


  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by RavenGage View Post


    That doesn't make sense, they might not benefit from the rune regen but they still get 1000% DPS. 1000% is 1000%, that's the same for everyone. I can easily do it as a paladin I'm sure a DK should be able to as well
    Well, yes. with 1000% dmg increase I suppose any tank should be able to do it. I don't claim to be an expert on DK mechanics in any regards. I'm just stating what i observed. The DK is competent (been playing with him since vanilla) and I can't for the life of my disregard the fact that he just couldn't kill the add before flaming tornadoes swoop in. Seems he isn't the only DK tank with the same problem either.

    Basically any class, that can throw the most moves in the shortest amount of time is going to do inflated dps with 1000% dmg buff on this encounter. DK's have to wait for runes to regen, and they only got runic power to use during that. Blood tanking is heavily based around using Deathstrike as much as possible, so can't really just leave the survival aspect totally out of the picture. Deathstrike needs 2 runes each time. So basically 3-4 hits per all runes + runic power moves. Thats significantly less than what I can put out as warrior.

    This is why I argued about the haste (assuming it still increases rune regeneration speed?). If this appears to be a common problem, I think it is an oversight on the mechanic on Blizzards part or the tank just isn't as competent as a dps as I would think. We both used normal tanking gear and specc. No dps gimmicks.

    Tank can't really go into Unholy presence either unless he want's to risk getting hit by criticals.
    Last edited by Keulanaama; 2011-07-02 at 10:42 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Keulanaama View Post
    Basically any class, that can throw the most moves in the shortest amount of time is going to do inflated dps with 1000% dmg buff on this encounter. DK's have to wait for runes to regen, and they only got runic power to use during that. Blood tanking is heavily based around using Deathstrike as much as possible, so can't really just leave the survival aspect totally out of the picture. Deathstrike needs 2 runes each time. So basically 3-4 hits per all runes + runic power moves. Thats significantly less than what I can put out as warrior.
    ^ This is where I think your logic errs. I'm not trying to say DKs are good at this, honestly I don't know if they are or aren't. I just don't see any inherent interaction between runes and %dmg modifiers.

    Let me put it this way, every tank (and DPS class) is ideally balanced around doing the same sustained DPS. If Runes are a part of a class they are balanced around that, they aren't meant to do competitive DPS with all runes up and then limited by the regen time. Their DPS and abilities are tuned and balanced around a certain regen time of their resources. So when DK Tank A does 10k dps normally, they will do 100k on this fight. Warrior Tank B does 10k normally, they will do 100k on this fight.

    Now putting all that aside, do DKs do the same DPS as other tanks in normal situations? If they don't then that's where the problem lies.

    Edit: I went and looked at some WoL data and it looks like you were right (although for the wrong reasons ). DKs on average do seem to be 5-10% below the other tanks, I would assume that's due to Rune Strike granting extra threat. They have to be balanced around the same TPS as us so if they gain extra "free" threat from an ability then their "normal" DPS-related threat will be lower, which means their DPS is a tad lower. So on this fight where threat is irrelevant and it's all about DPS, DKs are gimped a little bit. Good to know I guess.


  10. #10
    We just got our kill yesterday with a Warrior and Pally tank and three healers. The warrior was around 85k with the pally at 65k DPS. I, the fire mage, did the flying by myself and I was able to get 20% of his health down per air phase, and the group got 30% more during the burn phase. This led to us getting her down to around 10% after the second burn phase and I finished her off in the air. If you need any help on the adds, you can have the person that was flying help with them. Good luck on your kill!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by RavenGage View Post
    Edit: I went and looked at some WoL data and it looks like you were right (although for the wrong reasons ). DKs on average do seem to be 5-10% below the other tanks, I would assume that's due to Rune Strike granting extra threat. They have to be balanced around the same TPS as us so if they gain extra "free" threat from an ability then their "normal" DPS-related threat will be lower, which means their DPS is a tad lower. So on this fight where threat is irrelevant and it's all about DPS, DKs are gimped a little bit. Good to know I guess.
    You had apparently more energy than me checking WoL parses

    But ye, seems I was going at it from the wrong viewpoint, like I said, DK ain't really in my area of expertise (if there even is one). That what you said makes perfect sense.

    Like you said, DK tanking isn't balanced (and threat to be more specific) around the damage they do, but rather their threat is inflated. This becomes obvious when you look at the regular raid situation. I do more dps on most occasions, but simply struggle more with threat. Now this in itself proves nothing, just stating my personal observations, but in contrast to what you observed, I think it is more or less to the point atleast. Nice call.

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