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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Baker St Irregulars View Post
    Plenty of humans can't procreate either, does that mean they are justified in kidnapping/murdering others' children in order to continue their family line?



    1. They are not her people.
    2. Maybe she should stop participating in warfare.
    3. The orcs and humans are killing themselves often enough, and people die every day. She can be happy to take the scraps from those battles.



    She's doing it for the sake of power.

    She refuses to abide by every single treaty she has signed.

    She refuses to abide by every single peace agreement she has entered.

    She lies about what she will and will not do.

    She captured Val'kyr for the sole purpose of power and immortality.

    The forsaken are not "her people". They are people from OTHER races OTHER factions she has murdered and raised from the dead to serve her whims.



    1. Thrall never once lived in peace.
    2. The orcs are not native to azeroth, they are invaders.
    3. The orcs continue to do things, even during "peactime" such as HELP THE FORSAKEN MAKE SUPER PLAGUES.
    4. Even in the novels, there's 0 evidence that the orcs obeyed thrall.

    Why do you think Thrall quit leading the horde?



    I considered them, and most of them are flat out lying.
    I think this is the very few times where I can say 'your fanboy is showing'. Your hatred for the Horde is so tangible in this response with how you twisted at least half of the shit that's happened in lore it amazes me.

  2. #102
    Fluffy Kitten Thage's Avatar
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    Also, Baker, the Ebon Blade rejoined the Alliance and Horde after Northrend. Thassarian even flat-out says this. Koltira disobeyed an order from his superior. Sylvanas is fully within her rights to punish him for doing so. I take it you don't have any relatives in the military, so here's a news flash: Court Martials are far more strict than civilian courts.

    As for what her order was? To take Andorhol. I'm sorry you can't actually blame Sylvanas for fighting back the Alliance that wants to wipe her people out and annex her territory.

    Awesome sig by Elyaan is awesome.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Phenomina View Post
    Besides the Horde who suffer from lack of resources managed to build a whole new upgraded city..... ?
    Goblin Engineering it builds to last.

  4. #104
    Blademaster Gorshan's Avatar
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    i'd expect from whats happening, that garrosh will discover that sylvanas is still mass producing "the plague" which he has demanded to be stopped.
    Sylvanas still refuses to stop, breaking out with mass war and garrosh attacking and effectively removing sylvanas and "the forsaken" from the horde.

    Now this is the twist, with "the forsaken" out of the horde, and still hated by the alliance - what happens?

    a - The forsaken becomes a whole expansion where sylvanas is main boss with possible tie-in with Bolvar for numbers?
    b - factions are torn, trolls and blood elfs join forsaken after being abused by garrosh and alliance sided factions split with a change of alliances being made.
    c - sylvanas is removed from "the forsaken" and takes some with her, creating a "new" forsaken army with possible Bolvar being corrupted, and in control of the nerubians + scourge army (possible tie-in with AQ20/40).

    just my 2 cents.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Phenomina View Post
    Besides the Horde who suffer from lack of resources managed to build a whole new upgraded city..... ?
    We didn't suffer anything. Anyone caught suffering where stuffed into the walls of the city. If the chinese can do it, so can the horde!

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Leesa View Post
    A) Drop the pseudo-intellectualism in the attempt of coming off as superior. The only thing you're doing is making yourself look like a pompous know-it-all.
    Really?

    B) Good and evil are totally subjective to the culture in which people live. You can't solely tell people what Good and what Evil is.
    Morality is subjective to a culture. Good and Evil in ALL ancient cultures and ALL ancient societies have long been shown to have nothing to do with the culture. Instead, they are concepts that are universally attributable to the concepts of pain, suffering, misery, happiness, sustainability, harm and no benefit.

    By causing pain, suffering, misery, you are committing an act of evil.

    There is no social equivalent here. This is all about the living environment of not just you but enemies and non-enemies.

    C) Winning an argument isn't closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears and blindly yelling that you're right and everyone else is wrong.
    No, it's citing facts, and not lying through my teeth about murder in order to protect my fanboi adoration of a fictional character who is committing overt acts of evil just to save my own moral sensibilities.

  7. #107
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baker St Irregulars View Post
    Plenty of humans can't procreate either, does that mean they are justified in kidnapping/murdering others' children in order to continue their family line?



    1. They are not her people.
    2. Maybe she should stop participating in warfare.
    3. The orcs and humans are killing themselves often enough, and people die every day. She can be happy to take the scraps from those battles.



    She's doing it for the sake of power.

    She refuses to abide by every single treaty she has signed.

    She refuses to abide by every single peace agreement she has entered.

    She lies about what she will and will not do.

    She captured Val'kyr for the sole purpose of power and immortality.

    The forsaken are not "her people". They are people from OTHER races OTHER factions she has murdered and raised from the dead to serve her whims.



    1. Thrall never once lived in peace.
    2. The orcs are not native to azeroth, they are invaders.
    3. The orcs continue to do things, even during "peactime" such as HELP THE FORSAKEN MAKE SUPER PLAGUES.
    4. Even in the novels, there's 0 evidence that the orcs obeyed thrall.

    Why do you think Thrall quit leading the horde?



    I considered them, and most of them are flat out lying.
    1. Everyone does EVERYTHING for Power, the pursuit of power is what drives humanity, both in fiction and in reality
    2. Sylvanas agreed to the treaties, until they were broken by Twi-Hammer/Alliance
    3. Sylvanas agreed to the agreements, until they were broken by Twi-Hammer/Alliance
    4. Sylvanas tells people what they want to hear, remember there were no US troops in Cambodia
    5. The Val'kyr chose to join Sylvanas, they are not forced
    6. Sylvanas is Forsaken, and the Forsaken are her people.

    A) There was peace between WC3 and WoW, that's 4 years of peace
    B) The Orcs would love to return to Draenor, too bad the Legion blew it up. The Humans are not native to Kalimdor, so they are invading on Tauren lands
    C) It's weird, factions help their allies
    D) lolwut?

    All of your counter arguments are "i'm right cuz I say so"
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Point out to me specific examples of Sylvanus performing said acts, instead of Forsaken with their free will doing whatever they want, and I'll believe you.
    Hitler was the good guy, it's just that his followers did all the nasty stuff in his name under their own free will.
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Baker St Irregulars View Post
    Why do you think Thrall quit leading the horde?
    Because he wanted to do the greater good and heal the world mabye?

  10. #110
    Stood in the Fire Vaelyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anoregon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Baker St Irregulars View Post
    LOL It's not "a matter of perspective". Good and evil are not equatable to "perspective".
    They absolutely are.
    If they were not, you wouldn't see so much debate about things like "Pro-choice VS Pro-Life," Kavorkian, and Gay Rights. People who consider their views and perspectives to be the one and only good truth, are ignorant imbeciles. I know what I believe to be true and have no doubts in it, but going around, telling anyone who disagrees with me off and calling them evil just makes me an ass. :-)

  11. #111
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phenomina View Post
    Both capitals got. In-game revamp. Is there any lore or factual backup to Varian paying for the docks, a new keep, a new bank and an entire new city while enjoying Westfalls poverty and relishing in there hunger? Besides the Horde who suffer from lack of resources managed to build a whole new upgraded city..... ?
    Orgrimmar burned down and they got it on the cheap from the Goblins. Durotar also has materials, just not lumber...or food
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  12. #112
    Fluffy Kitten Phenomina's Avatar
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    Everyone needs to tone it down a bit, debating lore is fine but name calling is not.

    The Flower of Shattrath

  13. #113
    Fluffy Kitten Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phenomina View Post
    Everyone needs to tone it down a bit, debating lore is fine but name calling is not.
    So, what about Bakers having done that for the last five or so pages to anyone that dares to disagree with him?

    Awesome sig by Elyaan is awesome.

  14. #114
    The Insane DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    Wait, the OP considers Deathwing and all of that "new lore?" Am I reading too deeply into his post and making assumptions or does he serioulsy not realize the dragon aspects have been in this game's history since looooooooonnnnnggggg before Arthas? o_o
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  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    I think this is the very few times where I can say 'your fanboy is showing'. Your hatred for the Horde is so tangible in this response with how you twisted at least half of the shit that's happened in lore it amazes me.
    How is citing facts showing a hatred of the horde?

    lol

    It seems more likely to me you didn't actually EVER know what the horde was really doing.

  16. #116
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    So, what about Bakers having done that for the last five or so pages to anyone that dares to disagree with him?
    I think he's included in that general statement.
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Procadin View Post
    since the leaking information of Sylvanas' actions in cataclysm there have been intense discussions about what she's really up to, her motivations and the consequences in a near future. almost all threads were flamewars and trollfeasts between "zealots", "emos" and "casuals" who dont care. myself have always defended her image against all gryffindor-boys and loved her whole story. but then i read this after coming from my summer vacation:



    yeah. they r totally making her a villain sooner or later. just put down the only cool character left in the lore. im surprised i dont care anymore tbh. after experiensing blizzard attempts to create new fresh lore in this xpac it was only a matter of time before it happened. cuz lore is now controlled by the need of new content to kill and loot. no depth. or can we still hope that a good surprise is around the corner? that there will be a horde vs tirion + mograine? a 4th war? maybe not, since "there is no money" for such awesomeness.

    what r your last theories about sylvanas and the forsaken before blizzard surprises us with new predictable content?
    seems to me, you just don't understand that people will buy any expansion for wow blizz makes, so "there is no money" is just false. they have more than 11m suscribers, and of those, at least 9m will buy any expansion, whatever it is.
    "There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man."
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  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Baker St Irregulars View Post
    I take it you never quested in Arathi, or quested as a horde where you poison people to turn them into forsaken. In fact, I read up on the horde quests before I began playing and that was the major reason why I do not play horde. I find the horde to be morally reprehensible.

    This was all true from the beginning. Sylvanas would have to be killed.
    Yeah because the alliance has ever been a respectable faction either. lol.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    So, what about Bakers having done that for the last five or so pages to anyone that dares to disagree with him?
    The most I ever did was call some people fanbois for sylvanas. That's not name calling when people are actually protecting her by saying "she's really a good guy" after admitted she's murdered thousands for her own power structure.

  20. #120
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baker St Irregulars View Post
    Really?
    Yes, really, because it's what's happening.

    Morality is subjective to a culture. Good and Evil in ancient cultures have long been shown to be directly attributable to the concepts of pain, suffering, misery, happiness, sustainability, harm and no benefit.

    By causing pain, suffering, misery, you are committing an act of evil.

    There is no social equivalent here. This is all about the living environment of not just you but enemies and non-enemies.
    What is evil to one group of culture may be seen as good to another. It's a simple fact of life. Causing pain, suffering, and misery, for the sake of doing exactly that, most people will accept as evil.

    But Sylvanus is not doing that, and to believe that she has no justifying cause on her side is to be absolutely ignorance of the FACTS that are present in quest text.



    No, it's citing facts, and not lying through my teeth about murder in order to protect my fanboi adoration of a fictional character who is committing overt acts of evil just to save my own moral sensibilities.
    You're twisting the facts to show your own perspective. You're saying 'HEY THIS HAPPENED IN HILLSBRAD SYLVANUS DID THIS' and completely ignoring that the people who did that... did it of their own volition, without Sylvanus' command, and Sylvanus would certainly tell them NOT to do it if she had known.

    In other words, you're presenting small facts, and then making enough twists to fit your argument that it could still, potentially, be believable. Hell, I bet you even believe it yourself, and you've just been misinterpreting everything you seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baker St Irregulars View Post
    How is citing facts showing a hatred of the horde?

    lol

    It seems more likely to me you didn't actually EVER know what the horde was really doing.
    Because you're not stating facts. You're presenting your own version of the facts as if they are fact, despite the fact that numerous RELIABLE resources are in complete disagreement with your presentation of events and actions.

    You're a verifiable, confirmed, fanboi Alliance player. That's what you are. You're so anti-Horde and pro-Alliance that no logical argument will ever allow you to believe that the Forsaken could actually be good.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

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