people right about Sylvanas after all?

[mistuhbull]

Yeah because the alliance has ever been a respectable faction either. lol.

Gnomes are fairly respectabible

[Baker St Irregulars]

Yeah because the alliance has ever been a respectable faction either. lol.

See, this is the problem - I never justified the Alliance. We're talkign about Sylvanas, this is a Sylvanas thread. Do you want to talk Alliance? Cause they've pissed me off too.

[Phenomina]

Orgrimmar burned down and they got it on the cheap from the Goblins. Durotar also has materials, just not lumber...or food

So new city looks is a priority for the money over food for the Horde? Yet Varian is a bad guy?

[GennGreymane]

that bitch is going to die!

[Flaks]

? Besides the Horde who suffer from lack of resources managed to build a whole new upgraded city..... ?

I think the war in Northrend and huge leaps forwards into Ashenvale had somethings to do with fixing the Horde resource problems.

Also, the story arc with Stormwind ignoring Westfall has existed since original WoW. Lack of a leader I think used to be sited as a source for why proper attention wasn't given to that region so logically it followed that the return of King Wrynn would herald a fix to all of Westfall's problems. Sadly that wasn't the case AT ALL. I know the Alliance was hard-pressed for resources what with the war in Northrend and then being attacked directly in Stormwind by Deathwing but the interim period between the victory over the Lich King and Deathwing's attack should have been enough to at least mildly address the West fall problem.

[Pyrowraith]

1. Everyone does EVERYTHING for Power, the pursuit of power is what drives humanity, both in fiction and in reality
2. Sylvanas agreed to the treaties, until they were broken by Twi-Hammer/Alliance
3. Sylvanas agreed to the agreements, until they were broken by Twi-Hammer/Alliance
4. Sylvanas tells people what they want to hear, remember there were no US troops in Cambodia
5. The Val'kyr chose to join Sylvanas, they are not forced
6. Sylvanas is Forsaken, and the Forsaken are her people.

A) There was peace between WC3 and WoW, that's 4 years of peace
B) The Orcs would love to return to Draenor, too bad the Legion blew it up. The Humans are not native to Kalimdor, so they are invading on Tauren lands
C) It's weird, factions help their allies
D) lolwut?

All of your counter arguments are "i'm right cuz I say so"

This. Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

They are her people. She is the leader of the forsaken as said above.

Stop participating in warfare? Don't be so blind. She is surrounded by enemies to the south and east. Varian has been trying to wipe her out. Stop participating? And let her and HER PEOPLE get slaughtered? That makes sense.

Also you state "Why do you think Thrall quit leading the horde?" He stopped leading the horde because he had to choose between becoming the greatest shaman to ever live or not be a shaman at all. He noticed how the world was starting to be torn apart by the elements. He decided it was in the best interest of the entire world to continue his shamanistic training.

You can stop now.

[Thage]

The most I ever did was call some people fanbois for sylvanas. That's not name calling when people are actually protecting her by saying "she's really a good guy" after admitted she's murdered thousands for her own power structure.

We're pointing out the flaws in your rhetoric, and you're ignoring the logical points people make by repeating the same points that were debunked. If you'd like, I can start linking quest text every time you say something and bolding the parts that prove you wrong, I've got nothing but time for the next day or two.

[Baker St Irregulars]

What is evil to one group of culture may be seen as good to another. It's a simple fact of life. Causing pain, suffering, and misery, for the sake of doing exactly that, most people will accept as evil.

Sorry, but the concept of Good and Evil are universal. You can't play a hair splitting game like that.

The words include Universally recognized Actions.

You're discussing Morality, not Good and Evil.

[surafang]

that bitch is going to die!

for gilneas!!!!!!!!!!

[mistuhbull]

So new city looks is a priority for the money over food for the Horde? Yet Varian is a bad guy?

Garrosh is trying to get food, them damn blue tree folk keep killing our peons though

[Myrrar]

Phen has already told you to cool it. If you insult someone, you will receive an infraction. And yes, the overused moronic 'fanboi' comment is an insult. So enough.

[Baker St Irregulars]

We're pointing out the flaws in your rhetoric, and you're ignoring the logical points people make by repeating the same points that were debunked. If you'd like, I can start linking quest text every time you say something and bolding the parts that prove you wrong, I've got nothing but time for the next day or two.

You haven't pointed out spit to justify what Sylvanas is doing, you just yell at me and say "KILLING PEOPLE ISN'T EVIL BECAUSE IT'S ACCEPTED FOR THEIR SOCIETY!" over and over and over. THAT IS NOT AN ARGUMENT. That is a fallback point for someone who doesn't understand the concept of debate, let alone good and evil.

[GennGreymane]

for gilneas!!!!!!!!!!

hell to the yea!

[surafang]

So new city looks is a priority for the money over food for the Horde? Yet Varian is a bad guy?

Actually Garrosh is doing a good job on the resource game.

[DrakeWurrum]

Sorry, but the concept of Good and Evil are universal. You can't play a hair splitting game like that.

The words include Universally recognized Actions.

You're discussing Morality, not Good and Evil.

No, what I'm discussing is that you're accusing Sylvanus of murdering people for the sake of murdering them, when she's not doing that.

She has reasons for doing what she's doing and, in the eyes of the Forsaken, and in the eyes of securing the Horde's positions in the Eastern Kingdom, it's not an "evil" so much as a moral position that her enemies will disagree with.

I don't know about you, but when the humans slaughter orcs in their war, they're not giving the orcs a second chance at life. At least when Sylvanus goes to war, she brings her enemies back to life, and proposes that they join her. Or not, as they wish.

[mistuhbull]

Sorry, but the concept of Good and Evil are universal. You can't play a hair splitting game like that.

The words include Universally recognized Actions.

You're discussing Morality, not Good and Evil.

Good and Evil are not universally defined.

certain groups of people consider eating pork to be "evil"
other groups consider Bacon to be delicious

[Thage]

So new city looks is a priority for the money over food for the Horde? Yet Varian is a bad guy?

A city that can withstand siege and not catch fire is a pretty big priority. I'm not saying either is worse because I consider both Chynn and Hellwhimper to be wasting their and their allies' resources and manpower fighting a war over what should be a one-on-one mak'gora to settle the entire matter. However, the thing is Garrosh is an idiot and has drastically less leadership experience than Varian, who was king of Stormwind for the majority of his life--his father was killed young--and has, instead of seeing to his people, opted instead to reignite a war with the Horde and lavishly renovate his keep in the time between Northrend and the Cataclysm (which, lorewise, was stated to have been at minimum a year). On the other hand, Garrosh has been proactively trying to better things for the Horde--in all the wrong ways, but he's actually trying to secure resources rather than divert manpower and resources warring against the Horde.

[Flaks]

How is citing facts showing a hatred of the horde?

lol

It seems more likely to me you didn't actually EVER know what the horde was really doing.

Not a single thing you said in the post I quoted was factual. NOT A SINGLE ONE. And mistuhbull debunked everyone of those arguments piece by piece.

Your argument that Sylvanas has done morally reprehensible acts is true. But to condemn the entire horde or even call her an 'evil bitch that deserves to die' is still incorrect. She does things she sees fit to give the Horde the upper hand while also ensuring the survival of her species. There's no doubting that whatsoever.

She will face her final judgment eventually. But it will not be at the hand of raiders, the alliance nor the horde.

[xotrem]

Even if it's against their will, it doesn't mean it's the wrong thing. It's like when your pet is sick and you take it to the vet to get cured, but the pet doesn't know you're trying to help it, so you have to force it to get better against its will.

That would be presenting humanity as a disease to be cured.

[Deleted]

Wait, the OP considers Deathwing and all of that "new lore?" Am I reading too deeply into his post and making assumptions or does he serioulsy not realize the dragon aspects have been in this game's history since looooooooonnnnnggggg before Arthas? o_o

I wouldn't expect to get back to the original idea anymore even the OP probs thinks that... baker said some shit about my first post on this thread and then people pput in their brand of what they think and he just said nope your wrong and tada 80 posts late hitler -.-' so yeh im just here for the ride now.