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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Fierss View Post
    You don't account for using cooldowns.
    Has this been addressed? Reason I ask is, last I read on EJ, AoK was less potent than is originally appears; this is because it's hard to line up with our CDs. (Delaying our initial cooldown phase vs using AoK w/o CDs, etc.)

  2. #42
    Address what? There wasnt any mistake in the first place. Link to Chippydip's post is at OP, read it.

    And if someone have trouble lining up 5min CD (which you will use 1-2 times during the fight mostly) with other cooldowns ... I don't know what to say here.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisko View Post
    Link to Chippydip's post is at OP, read it.
    How I missed that link, I honestly don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisko View Post
    And if someone have trouble lining up 5min CD (which you will use 1-2 times during the fight mostly) with other cooldowns ... I don't know what to say here.
    What I meant about lining up with cooldowns, which turns out was referenced in Chippydip's post and explained better:

    What about [Fury of Angerforge]? This could either be better than [Impatience of Youth] or worse depending on the specifics of the fight. Fury isn't usable at the start of the fight until it has time to stack up. If you wait for it to stack and then pop cooldowns and end up missing out on a cooldown use due to fight length you've just cost yourself some dps. (If you use Fury without cooldowns then its clearly worse than Impatience with cooldowns.) Fury also suffers if the fight has time where you can't melee for long enough that the stack falls off. If this happens soon before your cooldowns are ready, you're right back in the same situation of having to wait for it to stack or Impatience being a better choice for the fight. On the other hand, if the fight duration and mechanics allow you to use Fury just like a normal Use trinket, then it may actually be our BiS trinket.
    So it's not necessarily "hard", but having to wait for stacks could lead to non-optimal situations. Of course, your post (which I also blissfully missed) regarding FoA / AoK + cooldown logic explains how you computed it.


    Yeah, I did an unusually good job of making an ass of myself. Brilliant. [edit: That teaches me to read mmo-champ / post while at work.]

  4. #44
    humm, i really dont like on use trinkets because im an engineer and it works terrible with my glove enchants....
    but i guess its kinda hard to maintain mastery>crit with the current itemisation (from the first look at the t12 gear)

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Alindra View Post
    So it's not necessarily "hard", but having to wait for stacks could lead to non-optimal situations. Of course, your post (which I also blissfully missed) regarding FoA / AoK + cooldown logic explains how you computed it.

    Yeah, I did an unusually good job of making an ass of myself. Brilliant. [edit: That teaches me to read mmo-champ / post while at work.]
    No worries, at least once you read the posts you got the idea. I was trying to keep the lines short, so some calculations didn't fit in.
    For AoK, because of delayed CDs, I reduced duration of 3rd AW by 33.33% (was 25% for FoA back in 4.0), which resulted in combined AWs duration as 20 + 20 + 20*66.66% = 53.33s instead of usual 60s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bozzna View Post
    humm, i really dont like on use trinkets because im an engineer and it works terrible with my glove enchants....
    but i guess its kinda hard to maintain mastery>crit with the current itemisation (from the first look at the t12 gear)
    Go BS/JC like the rest of the crowd

  6. #46
    Mechagnome BloodGutter's Avatar
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    Thanks for this list!

    Any idea where the Strength Alchemy trinket falls? I still have it and I'm not sure if it's worth replacing or not.

    EDIT: Nevermind, did the math myself and the DPS worth of Volatile Alchemist Stone comes up to 1212.47 (351*2.57 + 194*1.60), making it on par with the PVP trinket at the bottom of the list.
    Last edited by BloodGutter; 2011-07-10 at 06:42 AM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Bozzna View Post
    humm, i really dont like on use trinkets because im an engineer and it works terrible with my glove enchants....
    but i guess its kinda hard to maintain mastery>crit with the current itemisation (from the first look at the t12 gear)
    For the moment, using the Apparatus of Khaz'goroth actually does not proc a cooldown on the engineering glove tinkers, or vice versa. I'm not sure if it's intended or not, but due to the ramp-up time involved in the trinket's use I could see how it might make sense. I'm not sure about the reputation trinket, however.

  8. #48
    Blademaster Silvercreek's Avatar
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    Well about delaying CDs .. when we will all get our 4piece T12 we will wait to be able to pop Zeal ... then 5 secs after we will pop guardian ... 5 secs after a pot (if you didn't pre pot) ... then 5 secs after our wings ... AND THEN 5 secs after the AoK trinket ... so this is like 20-25 secs total. It should have some stack at that moment !

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisko View Post
    Currently search for Essence of the Eternal Flame returns only one normal trinket.

    Firestones don't have any use ability and it would break ability to trade items back.

    It might be added later to the game, but currently this item is not available to players, hence it's not in the list for now.
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=69200 -> heroic version
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=69002 -> normal version

    http://www.img-share.net/uploads/16388gmfirestones.jpg is a pic describing how i thought we would get the heroicversion. gm comvo saying you can use firestones?

    well thats where my confusion came from anyway.

    list is looking good

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Viglante View Post

    http://www.wowhead.com/item=69200
    -> heroic version
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=69002 -> normal version

    http://www.img-share.net/uploads/16388gmfirestones.jpg is a pic describing how i thought we would get the heroicversion. gm comvo saying you can use firestones?

    well thats where my confusion came from anyway.

    list is looking good
    Sold by: no one. Comments say the same.

    That would be World First GM Who Does Not Have A Clue, right? =)

    GMs have no first hand knowledge of how the game works. It's just a layer to shield Blizzard from the most dumb and mundane requests general population might have.

  11. #51
    Hmm still not sure what trinket to use think i wiil make a tread :-)

  12. #52
    if fury of angerforge missing? jsut to see if it's beter than the caber more than anything else?

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Viglante View Post
    if fury of angerforge missing? jsut to see if it's beter than the caber more than anything else?
    I think caber beats FoA.

  14. #54
    A bit off-topic, but has anyone been able to set Apparatus up in clcret or Powerauras to show the amount of stacks, or only show it when it has 5 stacks?
    "No. I am Ganner. This threshold is mine. I claim it for my own. Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass."
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lvtwo/advanced

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by marinos View Post
    I think caber beats FoA.
    i wasn't sure as it's rated quite low and only jsut beats the pvp.

  16. #56
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viglante View Post
    i wasn't sure as it's rated quite low and only jsut beats the pvp.
    Ya it's being given a far lower rating than it's simming at but really know way to know for another 10 days or so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenjji View Post
    A bit off-topic, but has anyone been able to set Apparatus up in clcret or Powerauras to show the amount of stacks, or only show it when it has 5 stacks?
    I have made a power aura to show stacks and time on them.The stacks are called Titanic Power.Set them as buff and you are done.

  18. #58
    OP updated.

    - Glaring mistake was using 20s duration for Apparatus, it was carried over from old FoA calculation, I didn't noticed that trinket actually has only 15s duration. It's still BiS for heroic, but it's not anymore for normal. I'm very sorry if my mistake made you to buy trinket you are not going to use for some time.

    - On the upside, my calculations show that it is indeed better to use Apparatus with a few stacks for first wings, instead of delaying CDs and possibly cutting them at the end. Calculations for all Apparatuses updated with that logic, first AW used with 2 stacks.

    - Last SimCraft seems to fix issue with abnormally low haste and I'm using their weights now (100k iterations).

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisko View Post

    - On the upside, my calculations show that it is indeed better to use Apparatus with a few stacks for first wings, instead of delaying CDs and possibly cutting them at the end. Calculations for all Apparatuses updated with that logic, first AW used with 2 stacks.
    I dont know. Using the Apparatus with wings seems kinda nonsensical to me.
    What do wings do? Beeing able to use HoW, plus 20% boost.
    HoW is pretty much in the way of a normal usage of AoK, due to it not beeing afflicted by mastery (i am going for a mastery procc here) and even taking away potential cs or tv while AoK is up.

    For me it seems logical that AoK is _the_ trinket to chain with zealotry.
    Zealotry = mostly cs/3pTV and therefore extremely good in conjunction with a mastery procc.

    My fight would look something like this:

    Start -> Pre-pott/Synapse/Wings/Guardian -> 5*AoK + Zelotry.


    Maybe i am missing something, but i wouldnt want to use AoK without zealotry, and not necessarily with wings.
    (question is, isnt AoK fully stacked and chained with zealotry more usefull than with 1-2 stacks and alle the other cds)

    Of course if i know i'll be losing a full zealotry/AoK in the last 30s it wont be worth it, but on the other hand, most fights in firelands are pretty much predictable when it comes to length.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt3s View Post
    My fight would look something like this:

    Start -> Pre-pott/Synapse/Wings/Guardian -> 5*AoK + Zelotry.
    Your pull should look like

    -1s: Pot
    0s: GoAK
    0s+: Zeal when available (DP proc)
    10s: AW + Apparatus

    Maybe i am missing something, but i wouldnt want to use AoK without zealotry, and not necessarily with wings.
    (question is, isnt AoK fully stacked and chained with zealotry more usefull than with 1-2 stacks and alle the other cds)
    Redcape/Exemplar modeled it for 4.1 and Zeal/AW together is more dps, since then nothing changed except duration of Zeal. So there is nothing wrong with replacing some HoWs with TVs.
    Adding AoK on top of it you will have even more dps for those CS and TVs. Basic principle of stacking is that multiplying damage works better than adding damage, so I don't know why would you want to delay anything here.
    You are delaying 30s CD, cutting it on average by 10 seconds to line-up with 15s trinket (cutting it too) ... with no real advantages.

    Of course if i know i'll be losing a full zealotry/AoK in the last 30s it wont be worth it, but on the other hand, most fights in firelands are pretty much predictable when it comes to length.
    You can't know for sure. Unless you are in a guild where raiders never die, never mess up, have 100% attendance and play like a robots ... I doubt such guilds exist.
    That's why I use statistical approach when calculating penalty for cooldown delay and it's fair.

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