[Ret] Trinket ratings estimation [Dragon Soul 4.3+]

[Fierss]

Your pull should look like
-1s: Pot
0s: GoAK
0s+: Zeal when available (DP proc)
10s: AW + Apparatus

With Apparatus, there is evidence to support (though no hard math to prove or disprove yet) delaying Zeal+Apparatus until after AW is finished. Apparatus gives no benefit to HoW, so using all 3 together leads to conflicting benefits.

You also need inquisition up before Zeal, which you didn't mention.

[Requital]

With Apparatus, there is evidence to support (though no hard math to prove or disprove yet) delaying Zeal+Apparatus until after AW is finished. Apparatus gives no benefit to HoW, so using all 3 together leads to conflicting benefits.

You also need inquisition up before Zeal, which you didn't mention.

Yup everything I have read is use AW and Prioritize HoW for the crits to help stack Apparatus and then after AW pop GoAK and Zealotry 10 seconds later to get full use of Zealotry+Apparatus @ full GoAK stack. I can't test it since Apparatus dropped and I didn't win it but I'm sure using the Apparatus with Zealotry will give the best results since HoW gains nothing from Mastery.

[Eurytos]

i think i get what Kisko is saying, but i also understand what Req and some others have said about CD usage with AoK

the question becomes this, What provides more dps... to use AoK, Wings, and Zealotry together and prioritize TV and CS over any HoW conflicts OR to use AW by itself and only stack Zeal and AoK usage?

As Req mentioned, the HoW crits help stack AoK, allowing for a possible full build up of AoK to use with Zeal, but as Kisko said AW is a straight up %dmg increase and may outweigh the lost HoW during this CD stacking method.

Ofc, if you throw Guardian in there too, im sure there is a best place for him to be used as well. You will notice that i gave no answers in this post...since I will likely not get this trinket, mainly because I'm back to tanking for my guild but partly because all of this is too much for my simple mind to keep track of on the off chance i get to dps on a boss.

[Zankoku]

A bit off-topic, but has anyone been able to set Apparatus up in clcret or Powerauras to show the amount of stacks, or only show it when it has 5 stacks?

Kenji: Yep i got a string. Hold on while I grab it

EDIT: Ok, its a 2part Powa String

#1: Version:4.21; b:0.9686; icon:Ability_Warrior_TitansGrip; buffname:Titanic Power; r:0.9647; begin:1; x:347; customname:Titanic Power; stacks:5; texture:19; mine:true; stacksOperator:=; off:true; size:0.69

#2: Version:4.21; icon:INV_Misc_EngGizmos_20; buffname:Apparatus of Khaz'goroth; x:352; bufftype:7; texture:11; wowtex:true


Give me a bit more and will have screeny posted showing it (not a highly modded UI)

EDIT: screeny http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...511200807.jpg/

First string activated when you have 5 stacks of the buff. Second string activates when the trinket is ready, and when first string is active. The image is the white circle to the right side.

Yes, I am aware of my horrible UI. :PPP

[Requital]

OP updated.

- Glaring mistake was using 20s duration for Apparatus, it was carried over from old FoA calculation, I didn't noticed that trinket actually has only 15s duration. It's still BiS for heroic, but it's not anymore for normal. I'm very sorry if my mistake made you to buy trinket you are not going to use for some time.

- On the upside, my calculations show that it is indeed better to use Apparatus with a few stacks for first wings, instead of delaying CDs and possibly cutting them at the end. Calculations for all Apparatuses updated with that logic, first AW used with 2 stacks.

- Last SimCraft seems to fix issue with abnormally low haste and I'm using their weights now (100k iterations).

Care to upload or screenshot your stat weights, I did a 100K iterations and Haste is lower than it was before and I can't figure out why.

[Kisko]

Care to upload or screenshot your stat weights, I did a 100K iterations and Haste is lower than it was before and I can't figure out why.

Mhm, I can upload whole report.

AFAIR, all I did is selected Ret Heroic BIS profile, set iterations to 100k and clicked Simulate. Shouldn't be hard to replicate.

http://pastehtml.com/view/b0load7vp.html

[Requital]

Mhm, I can upload whole report.

AFAIR, all I did is selected Ret Heroic BIS profile, set iterations to 100k and clicked Simulate. Shouldn't be hard to replicate.

http://pastehtml.com/view/b0load7vp.html

Do you have a chardev profile for this as well? I noticed there is no SoT Glyph which makes me wonder why that choice was made. I could rebuild the profile but rather not if one exists.

[Kisko]

Do you have a chardev profile for this as well? I noticed there is no SoT Glyph which makes me wonder why that choice was made. I could rebuild the profile but rather not if one exists.

Req, it's just built-in SimCraft BiS set, I haven't modified anything. I'm not sure chardev database is even updated for Firelands yet, idk why you asking for it.

In SimCraft you can load this set from Import -> BiS -> Paladin -> T12 -> Ret T12H.

I took a quick glimpse and didn't noticed anything horribly wrong. Their trinket choice is solid (no more DMC:H lawl), they went for tier helm, which is right thing to do, they reforged it in acceptable way (962/394), yes they did used correct spec/glyphs, obviously. So I just went with their set.

And I just wonder why you think there is no SoT glyph? Profile clearly says there is.

glyphs=the_ascetic_crusader/hammer_of_wrath/templars_verdict/exorcism/seal_of_truth

To check profile you need to click on Profile on that webpage I linked.

[Requital]

Req, it's just built-in SimCraft BiS set, I haven't modified anything. I'm not sure chardev database is even updated for Firelands yet, idk why you asking for it.

In SimCraft you can load this set from Import -> BiS -> Paladin -> T12 -> Ret T12H.

I took a quick glimpse and didn't noticed anything horribly wrong. Their trinket choice is solid (no more DMC:H lawl), they went for tier helm, which is right thing to do, they reforged it in acceptable way (962/394), yes they did used correct spec/glyphs, obviously. So I just went with their set.

And I just wonder why you think there is no SoT glyph? Profile clearly says there is.


To check profile you need to click on Profile on that webpage I linked.

Good thing there aren't like 15 different BiS options.

[Kisko]

Good thing there aren't like 15 different BiS options.

Who cares?

You still looking for SoT glyph?

[flstewieg]

How does Darkmoon Card: Hurricane stack up against these nowadays?

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

How does Darkmoon Card: Hurricane stack up against these nowadays?

For AoE duty on Lord Ryolith and Beth'Tilac it might be overall higher dps but other str proc trinkets and AoK will be alot better during burst phases.

[flstewieg]

For AoE duty on Lord Ryolith and Beth'Tilac it might be overall higher dps but other str proc trinkets and AoK will be alot better during burst phases.

sure, but where exactly in the list on OP is it overall? wondering if it might be better than some of the bottom ones or not.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

sure, but where exactly in the list on OP is it overall? wondering if it might be better than some of the bottom ones or not.

for singletarget or "overall" it's not worth it, you have to look for fights where it might be better, Alysrazor has alot of movement if you're on the ground and any proc trinkets can proc during down times when you're not hitting anything while DMC:Hurricane will allways hit when it procs. Don't think there's any way to run a simulator on those situations but just use what you think will be best for the fight. If you again and again see Hart of Rage proc in fights when you're not able to hit anything it might be better to change to DMC:Hurricane, there's no real way to say if a fight is better or worse for DMC:Hurricane.

Just look at your own statistics or try and look for when your proc trinkets are up and if they have alot of uptime when you're not hitting anything then it might be slighlty better than other trinkets.

But on a simulator list it's going to be below or at the same level as the activate trinket from Baradins Warden, the one with 360mastery and 1600str activate or close to the dps of that trinket (overall).

---------- Post added 2011-07-17 at 04:08 PM ----------

ok I know the question is stupid and I will not give an armory link since I'm always saved in pvp gearzlol, but I have L2S, HoR(heroic), 19 points of expertise WITHOUT glyph AND WITHOUT HoR(heroic), so here is question: should I use normal AoK at all?
if yes, should I use it instead of L2S or HoR(heroic) ?

AoK is bloody brilliant when you use it with Zealotery, ofc there's encounters where the stacking part is hard to achieve but fights like Majordomo, ragnaros, Ryolith and fights where you're on boss only the perfect alignment with Zealotery. Can't speak for everyone but on majordomo 10man i burst 41k dps at the beginning.

[Zithras]

I've just scanned read about 100 pages of forum thread arguments about trinkets, weighting, and suchlike, and am even more confused than usual. I know you're going to groan, but please could you add DMC:Hurricane back into your results? I'm very very confused as to where it is in the BiS list right now. To add to the confusion, very few of the posts say whether they are using the 'new' or 'old' card version.

I have the following trinkets:
Caber, HoR (non-heroic), IoY, DMC, LtS
and am trying to figure out which 2 to use.

Everything I have read says DMC is no longer an option since the change, yet arkmrrobot, simulationcraft (which uses the 'new' version) and Redscape (not sure which one this is using) both show DMC/LtS as my best combo.

If DMC has been so badly nerfed, why is it still showing up on all the simulations as the best trinket for me? Should I believe this? If not, then what should I use? LtS/HoR with LtS/Apparatus once I get that?

Edit: Since I was typing this, it seems like someone else posted a similar question: it seems that DoC is now being valued alongside IoY? Which means I should use LtS/HoR? But then why are simulations still showing DmC as slightly beating LtS/HoR?

[Requital]

I've just scanned read about 100 pages of forum thread arguments about trinkets, weighting, and suchlike, and am even more confused than usual. I know you're going to groan, but please could you add DMC:Hurricane back into your results? I'm very very confused as to where it is in the BiS list right now. To add to the confusion, very few of the posts say whether they are using the 'new' or 'old' card version.

I have the following trinkets:
Caber, HoR (non-heroic), IoY, DMC, LtS
and am trying to figure out which 2 to use.

Everything I have read says DMC is no longer an option since the change, yet arkmrrobot, simulationcraft (which uses the 'new' version) and Redscape (not sure which one this is using) both show DMC/LtS as my best combo.

If DMC has been so badly nerfed, why is it still showing up on all the simulations as the best trinket for me? Should I believe this? If not, then what should I use? LtS/HoR with LtS/Apparatus once I get that?

Edit: Since I was typing this, it seems like someone else posted a similar question: it seems that DoC is now being valued alongside IoY? Which means I should use LtS/HoR? But then why are simulations still showing DmC as slightly beating LtS/HoR?

Caber and LTS but we need more numbers of the Caber because the estimated worth is much lower than I'm getting on sims and rawr so it's very important to see what value it presents. DMC isn't even in the running and should only be used seldom on heavy AE fights.

[Kinmaul]

For accuracy this list should include Heart of Rage when the expertise is reforged into mastery. I haven't seen any 4.2 gear lists than are so short on expertise that it is viable to use all the expertise on this trinket effectively. We only need 481 expertise (possibly less depending on your race/weapon) and this trinket provides 363 expertise alone. This means if the rest of your gear has more than 118 expertise on it you are wasting itemization points and dps potential.

HoR is a great trinket, but trying to evaluate it using all of it's expertise is not realistic which reduces the accuracy of your list. The same could be said about LtS as well; most players are forced into reforging the hit into mastery.

[marinos]

For accuracy this list should include Heart of Rage when the expertise is reforged into mastery. I haven't seen any 4.2 gear lists than are so short on expertise that it is viable to use all the expertise on this trinket effectively. We only need 481 expertise (possibly less depending on your race/weapon) and this trinket provides 363 expertise alone. This means if the rest of your gear has more than 118 expertise on it you are wasting itemization points and dps potential.

HoR is a great trinket, but trying to evaluate it using all of it's expertise is not realistic which reduces the accuracy of your list. The same could be said about LtS as well; most players are forced into reforging the hit into mastery.

I was wondering the same.With HoR reforged you gain 145 mastery.Where the trinket stands in terms of dps if expertise is reforged?

[Kisko]

1. None of trinkets in the list are ranked with expertise/hit weights. They are all reforged to 70%mastery / 30% crit.

2. Some people can use expertise/hit, some can use it partially, for some it's completely wasted. Since I would like to keep this list relatively short, I'm assuming that you can modify baseline string for your gear and your case and copy-paste it to Windows calculator. It's not hard.

For example, H:HoR with completely wasted expertise will be:
145*1.77*1.075 + 2178*0.18*2.69*1.1975 = 1539 dps

[Palinchron]

Honestly I don't like the Ramp up of LtS. If I do get a H:HoR I'd use that over LtS with my AoK. People saying AoK is hard to stack up imo are kind of wrong. Yes if you don't use Avenging Wrath first it can be but we can! Just smash enemy with Hammer of Wraths is a guarranteed 5 stacks pretty much then bust out Zealotry with AoK even Guardian and reap the rewards!

The ONLY thing I don't like about AoK is the 15 seconds you only get with it. For a 2hander user 20 seconds would make this thing the greatest trinket ever but I can deal with 15 seconds. It's just a pet peeve I guess for me. :P

I can say that when I looked at my World of Logs parse from Baelroc that Hand of Light is now ahead of Templar Verdicts in my overall damage which imo means AoK is doing its job pretty well!