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  1. #1

    [Ret] Trinket ratings estimation [Dragon Soul 4.3+]

    And hello again, my fellow pink warriors.
    List was updated using weights from high-mid i403 gearset with HM Slicer weapon and more accurate dps for several trinkets, like AoK and BLF, based on logs data.

    Weights from SimCraft 4.30.6 Live: Patchwerk, 100k, i403 set (chardev of Anaxie @ Antonidas).
    Cooldown coefficients and general logic from Chippydip, I enhanced his napkin math with SimCraft.

    Several trinkets listed twice: good case () is a perfect scenario (100% line up with cooldowns, enough crits to get your stacks up), while bad case () is the worst possible luck when using particular trinket.

    Creche of the Final Dragon (HM) -- 3560 dps (Source: Heroic: Ultraxion) = 517*2.91*1.17 + 3278*20/120*1.79*1.84
    Eye of Unmaking (HM) --------------- 3323 dps (Source: Heroic: Spine of Deathwing) = 990*0.986*2.91*1.17
    Creche of the Final Dragon -------- 3153 dps (Source: Ultraxion) = 458*2.91*1.17 + 2904*20/120*1.79*1.84
    Creche of the Final Dragon (HM) -- 3051 dps (Source: Heroic: Ultraxion) = 517*2.91*1.17 + 3278*20/120*1.79*1.32
    Eye of Unmaking --------------------- 2954 dps (Source: Spine of Deathwing) = 880*0.986*2.91*1.17
    Bone-Link Fetish (HM) --------------- 2946 dps (Source: All Heroic bosses before Deathwing) = 517*2.91*1.17 + 1186
    Apparatus of Khaz'goroth (HM) --- 2923 dps (Source: Firelands trash) = 433*2.91*1.17 + 1449
    Creche of the Final Dragon (RF) --- 2795 dps (Source: LFR Ultraxion) = 406*2.91*1.17 + 2573*20/120*1.79*1.84
    Creche of the Final Dragon -------- 2703 dps (Source: Ultraxion) = 458*2.91*1.17 + 2904*20/120*1.79*1.32
    Eye of Unmaking (RF) ---------------- 2618 dps (Source: LFR Spine of Deathwing) = 780*0.986*2.91*1.17
    Bone-Link Fetish --------------------- 2609 dps (Source: All Normal bosses before Deathwing) = 458*2.91*1.17 + 1050
    Apparatus of Khaz'goroth ---------- 2584 dps (Source: Firelands trash) = 383*2.91*1.17 + 1280
    Rotting Skull -------------------------- 2508 dps (Source: Valor Points x1650) = 183*1.85*1.17 + 275*1.79*1.17 + 2290*0.167*2.91*1.38
    Vessel of Acceleration (HM) --------- 2496 dps (Source: Heroic: Ragnaros) = 458*2.91*1.17 + 460*0.972*1.79*1.17
    Apparatus of Khaz'goroth (HM) --- 2484 dps (Source: Firelands trash) = 433*2.91*1.17 + 1010
    Creche of the Final Dragon (RF) --- 2395 dps (Source: LFR Ultraxion) = 406*2.91*1.17 + 2573*20/120*1.79*1.32
    Varo'then's Brooch ------------------- 2358 dps (Source: 4.3 5-man) = 383*2.91*1.17 + 1149*20/50*1.85*1.24
    Rosary of Light ----------------------- 2324 dps (Source: 4.3 5-man) = 383*2.91*1.17 + 1149*20/50*1.79*1.24
    Bone-Link Fetish (RF) ---------------- 2312 dps (Source: All LFR bosses before Deathwing) = 406*2.91*1.17 + 930
    Vessel of Acceleration ---------------- 2217 dps (Source: Ragnaros) = 406*2.91*1.17 + 410*0.972*1.79*1.17
    Apparatus of Khaz'goroth ---------- 2194 dps (Source: Firelands trash) = 383*2.91*1.17 + 890

    Fights with AoE (Yor'sahj):
    Bone-Link Fetish (HM) --------------- 6660 dps (Source: All Heroic bosses before Deathwing) = 517*2.91*1.17 + 4900
    Bone-Link Fetish --------------------- 5899 dps (Source: All Normal bosses before Deathwing) = 458*2.91*1.17 + 4340
    Bone-Link Fetish (RF) ---------------- 5232 dps (Source: All LFR bosses before Deathwing) = 406*2.91*1.17 + 3850


    Calculation format is always value*[uptime]*weight*coeff, so you can decode it quite easily.


    • Raw weights used (SimCraft, no CDs): Str 2.91, Mastery 1.85, Crit 1.79, Haste 1.34 (don't use them for comparisons, look below!).
    • BLF (normal) calculated based on logs as 2.3% of damage (1050 dps) for single-target. Obviously, this trinket trumps everything for AoE fights.
    • CoFD calculated for 120s ICD. It fluctuates back and forth by couple seconds, but in good case () you can line it up with every AW/Zeal. Bad case () - you lined up one out of three procs.
    • AoK proc contribution is straight from the logs of the reference toon, good case is 5 stacks on first use, bad case is 1 stack on first use.
    • Estimated EoU ramp-up is 10s.
    • Trinkets from 5-man dungeons calculated for 50s ICD.
    • See the 4.2 post for the legacy trinkets.

    Conclusion:
    It's safe to say that EoU is part of both normal and heroic BiS sets. 2nd place is CoFD.
    Remember that certain fights in DS require special choice of trinkets.


    P.S.
    Precise (500k iterations, 0.007% margin) normal stat weights of reference gearset (pic)
    Wspeed - 567.38
    Wdps - 12.21
    Hit - 5.40
    Exp - 4.23
    Str - 3.42
    Mastery - 2.34
    Crit - 2.03
    Haste - 1.53
    AP - 1.51
    Last edited by Kisko; 2012-01-16 at 03:51 PM. Reason: 4.3 trinkets

  2. #2
    You don't account for using cooldowns.
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  3. #3
    I do. Procs which can be lined up with CDs are given higher coefficients than flat stats.

    You obviously didn't bothered to read original Chippydip post from EJ.

  4. #4
    nvm i should read first
    Last edited by Kenjji; 2011-07-06 at 08:19 PM.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenjji View Post
    Did you account for the ramp up time of Apparatus?, I remember when FoA was rated really high in 4.1 untill someone mentioned the immense rampup time
    It's in the OP:
    I estimated AoK ramp-up as 40s in high-level gear

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    I'll definitely have to look into it this weekend. Req's sims have haste falling way down in value while your Redcape stats show that it surpassed crit rating. Gonna have to grind out some numbers myself because someone (Simcraft or Redcape) is off by a mile.

    Edit: really confused now. Where did you get that value for haste?

    From Redcape: "Haste is now uniformly our worst stat - reforge away from it where possible."

    Something is amiss.
    Last edited by Prentice; 2011-07-06 at 08:26 PM.

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  7. #7
    I put together 4.2 BIS list and that's the weights Redcape sheet calculated for it. I'll share:

    http://www.smallfiles.org/download/5...5.20.xlsm.html

    I see no reason for Haste to fall down since no mechanics were changed. That said, none of trinkets at the top have Haste anyway, even with those values, so ...

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice View Post
    I'll definitely have to look into it this weekend. Req's sims have haste falling way down in value while your Redcape stats show that it surpassed crit rating. Gonna have to grind out some numbers myself because someone (Simcraft or Redcape) is off by a mile.

    Edit: really confused now. Where did you get that value for haste?

    From Redcape: "Haste is now uniformly our worst stat - reforge away from it where possible."

    Something is amiss.
    Yup I dunno Redcape and Exemplar say has is the lowest value but their spreadsheets show it surpassing Crit which I find hard to believe. It's going to take more testing I'm still waiting to hear back from SC devs on how they are calculating haste.

    Either way Kisko is right no trinkets with Haste other than the CW which is rated at a higher value then I think it's worth but I doubt anyone is actively using it. You should add Dwyers Caber into the list as it's a great replacement to the 359 trinkets and it's simming out pretty high as well.
    Last edited by Requital; 2011-07-06 at 08:56 PM.
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  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    The part about trinkets not having haste is correct, but with a stat weight that high haste would become something we reforge to instead of away from. That can't be right.

    Using Redcape's newest spreadsheet, I have haste at 82, crit at 99, and mastery at 114. That is vastly different than the numbers you used. As it does not truly effect trinkets from a haste perspective, the inaccuracy of the current numbers could completey debunk these rankings because the crit and mastery values could be off by a very significant margin.
    Last edited by Prentice; 2011-07-06 at 09:40 PM.

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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisko View Post
    I put together 4.2 BIS list and that's the weights Redcape sheet calculated for it. I'll share:

    http://www.smallfiles.org/download/5...5.20.xlsm.html

    I see no reason for Haste to fall down since no mechanics were changed. That said, none of trinkets at the top have Haste anyway, even with those values, so ...
    This was the exact gear list that I made too, Kisko, that came out on top over Helm and Gloves as offset pieces (7/7 Heroic access) for Humans. Assuming Belt, VP neck, VP bracers, and Essence cannot be upgraded
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  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    For clarity's sake, I am not attacking you, Kisko. Those stat weights are WTF!? Don't think that I am calling you out.

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  12. #12
    Yeah, thanx for this thread.Really debating which trinkets to use since I just got the BoE Apparatus of Khaz'goroth ,And tbh i did alot of dummie tests, reforged twice, swapped in and out gear to fit in Apparatus of Khaz'goroth.And even with lining up cd's and aiming for atleast some uptime from my other trink H HoR, I wasn't at all impressed.And I didn't see a jump in dps like I was expecting.With the AoK proc I was at right under 4k mastery rating<with the 5 stack proc>.But it seemed like i wasted all of a minute ramping up, and even saw my stacks drop once or twice.Granted my crit % is low, since I have changed some pieces around for new gear,and didn't have the crit buff's as i usually would in 25 man raids so.Ill try it out again and test it in an actual raid, see how it compares.And Prentice just wanted to say thanx for those kicka$$ Ret PoV videos man.I like your setup.Thanx again

  13. #13
    Got Apparatus a few days ago, I was top on DKP and the only plate dps user in the raid anyways. Lucky me

    I seem to have a little trouble critting to get 5 stacks up to use it though, but I've only got 2 drops so far (helm off Alysrazor as well) so hopefully will improve further on. Dont get me wrong, its not terrible to get the stacks, just I find it a bit frustrating that we have another ramp up thing to keep track of and crit isnt exactly in spades in Cataclysm : /

  14. #14
    If stats remain correct, those conclusions are really helpfull, and we needed topic like this ASAP, frost DKs allready have it :/
    So it looks like HC HOR will remain supreme over Essence, but below normal Vessel, which might be important info for alot of people, while apparatus is all over the place and still unstable. I bought one but re-selled because people were not too much happy about it, might try it if it drops from trash , or ill just buy it if it keeps climbing up.
    We basicly presumed trinket BIS list is simmilar, only thing which i wasnt sure is which one is better HC HoR or rep trinket, looks like HC HoR still kicks over it, so i guess it and normal rag trinket shoud be our choice untill HC trinkets kicks in..

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Defender View Post
    This was the exact gear list that I made too, Kisko, that came out on top over Helm and Gloves as offset pieces (7/7 Heroic access) for Humans. Assuming Belt, VP neck, VP bracers, and Essence cannot be upgraded
    That's what I figured looking at our Tier that Chest is going to be the weak link and difference between it and offset one is larger than between offset gloves/helm vs Tier gloves/helm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice View Post
    For clarity's sake, I am not attacking you, Kisko. Those stat weights are WTF!? Don't think that I am calling you out.
    It's all cool. Haste at spreadsheet varies wildly, even with small changes to latency, etc, it was always like that. But I do have certain trust in Redcape's Str, Crit and Mastery numbers and that's all we need to compare current trinkets. The fact that you can get haste by 0.01 better than crit with BiS pieces and specific latency settings doesn't mean that we need to change our reforging strat.

    Added Dwyer's Caber, I've basically made up ICD on it as 60 seconds, if it will turn out to be wrong I'll fix it later. I don't know what damage On Use does either.

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-06 at 11:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammed View Post
    I just got the BoE Apparatus of Khaz'goroth ,And tbh i did alot of dummie tests, reforged twice, swapped in and out gear to fit in Apparatus of Khaz'goroth.And even with lining up cd's and aiming for atleast some uptime from my other trink H HoR, I wasn't at all impressed.
    That's sad to hear but bear in mind that AoK really needs full raidbuffs and high-level of gear to be effective.

    For instance, those with 372 currently crit once per 9-10 seconds in raid, but I expect that at 391 we should be critting once per 8 seconds and AoK will have reasonable 40s (8x5) ramp-up time.

  16. #16
    Btw there is a post on raidingretribution.net with a screenie from a GM's response.Every item can be upgraded to 391.For the ones now listed by the vendor,you just use the firestone on them and they get upgraded

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jammed View Post
    Yeah, thanx for this thread.Really debating which trinkets to use since I just got the BoE Apparatus of Khaz'goroth ,And tbh i did alot of dummie tests, reforged twice, swapped in and out gear to fit in Apparatus of Khaz'goroth.And even with lining up cd's and aiming for atleast some uptime from my other trink H HoR, I wasn't at all impressed.And I didn't see a jump in dps like I was expecting.With the AoK proc I was at right under 4k mastery rating<with the 5 stack proc>.But it seemed like i wasted all of a minute ramping up, and even saw my stacks drop once or twice.Granted my crit % is low, since I have changed some pieces around for new gear,and didn't have the crit buff's as i usually would in 25 man raids so.Ill try it out again and test it in an actual raid, see how it compares.And Prentice just wanted to say thanx for those kicka$$ Ret PoV videos man.I like your setup.Thanx again
    You lost your stacks on the dummy?! Seriously?
    The only reason I can think of is you got too much dodges and parrys because in an actual fight I never lost the stacks

  18. #18
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinos View Post
    Btw there is a post on raidingretribution.net with a screenie from a GM's response.Every item can be upgraded to 391.For the ones now listed by the vendor,you just use the firestone on them and they get upgraded
    Link unless you're not talking about VP Bracers / Rep items.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Link unless you're not talking about VP Bracers / Rep items.
    Bah he was talking about the vp item in there

    http://www.img-share.net/uploads/16388gmfirestones.jpg

  20. #20
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisko View Post

    Added Dwyer's Caber, I've basically made up ICD on it as 60 seconds, if it will turn out to be wrong I'll fix it later. I don't know what damage On Use does either.
    The use is pretty useless 500 damage before debuffs supposed it scales some, but the ICD is 100 seconds. The uptime is simming out @ 21%.
    Last edited by Requital; 2011-07-07 at 01:50 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

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