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  1. #241
    The Patient Energy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strikerinc View Post
    I made some personal test with the crusader strike glyph and apparatus of kazzgoroth, and it seem to proc the trinket faster with the glyph. my question is, when you have the apparatus, is it ok to keep crusader strike glyph to proc it faster? (if you huy mentionned it earlier i read it in no time still reading all the posts )
    If you can use all that expertise from SoT glyph, it will be better. I'm using CS glyph, because i can't free enough expertise for SoT glyph ATM. H:HoR and unavailable H:VoA trinkets is the reason :S

    10 expertise frees like ~300 stat rating. it's obviously better than 5% crit to one of our spells
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  2. #242
    Remplacing the Exorcism glyph not the Sot

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Strikerinc View Post
    Remplacing the Exorcism glyph not the Sot
    so your losing 20% exor damg for 5% more crits on crusader,

    the extra crits only help on the initial useage of the trinkey after the first use your gona be siting at 5 stacks for the rest of the fight until it gets used again as you have 2 minutes to stack it which is done very easily.

    i would not drop the exor glyph for that for those reasons the only viable glyph to drop is the expertise one which if your stil sporting a H;HoR then it's totaly valid otherwise your jsut having to reforge to much into expertise instead of jsut using the glyph.

  4. #244
    The Patient
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    It is not worth using the CS glyph. 5% crit on CS is not going to get AoK stacked significantly faster, and it's significantly less damage throughout the entire fight.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Strikerinc View Post
    I made some personal test with the crusader strike glyph and apparatus of kazzgoroth, and it seem to proc the trinket faster with the glyph. my question is, when you have the apparatus, is it ok to keep crusader strike glyph to proc it faster? (if you huy mentionned it earlier i read it in no time still reading all the posts )
    Glyphs you should use: TV + Exo + SoT.

    It's ok to replace SoT with CS if and only if, you are still sporting HoR trinket and can't utilize expertise from it. In all other cases it would be a dps loss.

  6. #246
    what will be better apparatus Kaz(378) with Vessel(384) or essence of the eternal flame ?
    perhaps somebody compared, because i cleared firelands only 4-5 times(normal) and not have such experience.
    i will be glad to hear any advice

  7. #247
    Stood in the Fire
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    The opening post, and the basis for this entire topic is the information found on page one. Your answers are all there in numerical form.
    If you want to delve a little deeper, run yourself through simcraft a few times and see what is better for you. In the long run whats best is for you is to try and compare for yourself if the numbers aren't to your liking. gl

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  8. #248
    i can't see a aparatus proced for haste there i would assume it's a few hundred dps above heroic crushing weight?
    also does it if proced for haste get your cs cd to 3 sec? if so wouldn't that be insanely awsome due to lining up with aw/zeal giving you a heroism rotationed aw/zeal every 2 minutes?

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekcho View Post
    what will be better apparatus Kaz(378) with Vessel(384) or essence of the eternal flame ?
    perhaps somebody compared, because i cleared firelands only 4-5 times(normal) and not have such experience.
    i will be glad to hear any advice
    Have you looked on the list before posting? Vessel > Essence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viglante View Post
    i can't see a aparatus proced for haste there i would assume it's a few hundred dps above heroic crushing weight?
    also does it if proced for haste get your cs cd to 3 sec? if so wouldn't that be insanely awsome due to lining up with aw/zeal giving you a heroism rotationed aw/zeal every 2 minutes?
    Yes, it's not there, because it's really bad idea to go for a haste build. Even if you will get it up to 4000 haste for 15 seconds of proc, for the 87% of the fight you will be stuck with a crapload of least desirable stat which will far out weight any advantages of 3s CD for 15 seconds.

    Hear me: haste cap is dead. It's been dead for a year and people still bringing it up for whatever reason. Let it go already.

  10. #250
    I am Murloc! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisko View Post
    Have you looked on the list before posting? Vessel > Essence.



    Yes, it's not there, because it's really bad idea to go for a haste build. Even if you will get it up to 4000 haste for 15 seconds of proc, for the 87% of the fight you will be stuck with a crapload of least desirable stat which will far out weight any advantages of 3s CD for 15 seconds.

    Hear me: haste cap is dead. It's been dead for a year and people still bringing it up for whatever reason. Let it go already.
    I don't think people understand we had 3 sec CS and stacked haste when we didn't have one of the most insane masterys in the game as we currently do. Even if 3 Sec was reachable now we would still ignore stacking haste because mastery damage is just so potent. Hell the goddamn stat is tuned so well on average your Mastery % is the same % of your damage done if not more.

    Hell the reason we were so bad at launch was we technically didn't even have a mastery.

    NOW NEXT expansions is different, Judge and CS cd and Global cooldowns, Hopfully it works off melee haste and our 25% haste proc talent in the new MoP talent calc works with the CDS for some decent synergy. But well prolly grab haste in MoP atleast until the GCD cap is met, I doubt we would go further beyond that.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2011-11-26 at 12:29 AM.

  11. #251
    Post with legacy 4.2 trinkets, to be linked from OP.

    Vessel of Acceleration (heroic) ------------------- 2303 dps = 458*2.83*1.15 + 460*0.972*1.58*1.15
    Apparatus of Khaz'goroth (heroic) (Mastery) --- 2206 dps = 433*2.83*1.15 + 1150*15/360*1.65*1.68 + 2875*(15+15)/360*1.65*1.68
    Apparatus of Khaz'goroth (heroic)
    (Crit) -------- 2172 dps = 433*2.83*1.15 + 1150*15/360*1.58*1.68 + 2875*(15+15)/360*1.58*1.68
    Heart of Rage (heroic) ----------------------------- 2167 dps = 363*1.629*1.15 + 2178*0.19*2.83*1.27
    Vessel of Acceleration ------------------------------ 2045 dps = 406*2.83*1.15 + 410*0.972*1.58*1.15
    Apparatus of Khaz'goroth (Mastery) -------------- 1951 dps = 383*2.83*1.15 + 1016*15/360*1.65*1.68 + 2540*(15+15)/360*1.65*1.68
    Essence of the Eternal Flame --------------------- 1937 dps = 383*1.65*1.15 + 1277*0.25*2.83*1.34
    Apparatus of Khaz'goroth (Crit) ------------------- 1921 dps = 383*2.83*1.15 + 1016*15/360*1.58*1.68 + 2540*(15+15)/360*1.58*1.68
    Heart of Rage ---------------------------------------- 1917 dps = 321*1.629*1.15 + 1926*0.19*2.83*1.27
    Impatience of Youth -------------------------------- 1881 dps = 321*1.65*1.15 + 1605/6*2.83*1.68
    Dwyer's Caber --------------------------------------- 1827 dps = 340*2.83*1.15 + 1020*20/51*1.58*1.14
    Crushing Weight (heroic) ------------------------- 1814 dps = 363*2.83*1.15 + 2178*0.19*1.14*1.34
    License to Slay -------------------------------------- 1809 dps = 321*1.629*1.15 + 371*2.83*1.15
    Coren's Chilled Chromium Coaster --------------- 1778 dps = 340*1.608*1.15 + 4000*10/50*1.26*1.14
    Ruthless Gladiator's Badge of Victory ----------- 1608 dps = 2029*20/120*2.83*1.68

    Calculation format is always value*[uptime]*weight*coeff, so you can decode it quite easily.


    • Weights used (SimCraft): Str 2.83, Mastery 1.65, Crit 1.58, AP 1.26, Haste 1.14.
    • For each AoK there is version when it procs Crit and another one when it procs Mastery (depends on your gear).
    • AoK used with AW/Zeal, without delaying them and first usage is 2 stacks. You can do more dps if you can get 5 stacks 30 seconds after pull or faster (check the original post about FoA trinket for detailed explanation).
    • I estimated VoA ramp-up as 20s (one white/TV/CS crit in 4 seconds).
    • For this comparison I consider that hit/exp caps are closely met regardless of what gear/trinkets used. That levels playing field - all trinkets provide Crit/Mastery or mix of them. If you are still over cap after reforging, you can adjust trinket worth by simply decreasing rating value in calculation by your overhead.
    • Dwyer's Caber calculated for 50s ICD (+1s to proc), on-use effect is not viable for raid use due to min range requirement.
    • See the 4.0 post of the rest of details.

    Conclusion
    :
    Heroic Vessel and Apparatus are likely our BiS.
    H:HoR from previous tier with it's hugely overbudgeted Strength proc continues to be one of the best trinkets you can get (if you can use all reforged expertise from it, that is).

  12. #252
    The Patient Phantoms's Avatar
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    Love the update Kisko, I'll be checking back to this thread more than plenty of times in the coming weeks. Thanks.

    I figured I'd suggest putting sources for each trinket, sometimes it helps and can even serve as a guide for people who are planning which bosses they need to be in or out for, and such. Feel free to copy the syntax of the sources onto the original post if you feel like helping people who might be interested in seeing where they need to go to get these. Thanks again.

    Eye of Unmaking (heroic) ---------------------- 3883 dps Source: Heroic: Spine of Deathwing
    Creche of the Final Dragon (heroic) ------------ 3569 dps Source: Heroic: Ultraxion
    Eye of Unmaking
    ------------------------------- 3452 dps Source: Spine of Deathwing
    Bone-Link Fetish (heroic) ---------------------- 3413 dps Source: All Heroic bosses before Deathwing
    Creche of the Final Dragon --------------------- 3161 dps Source: Ultraxion
    Eye of Unmaking (RF) -------------------------- 3059 dps Source: LFR Spine of Deathwing
    Bone-Link Fetish ------------------------------- 3022 dps Source: All Normal bosses before Deathwing
    Creche of the Final Dragon (RF) ---------------- 2802 dps Source: LFR Ultraxion
    Vessel of Acceleration (heroic) ---------------- 2795 dps Source: Heroic: Ragnaros
    Rotting Skull ----------------------------------- 2736 dps Source: Valor Points (x1650)
    Bone-Link Fetish (RF) -------------------------- 2679 dps Source: All LFR bosses before Deathwing
    Apparatus of Khaz'goroth (heroic) (Mastery) --- 2588 dps Source: Firelands trash drop
    PS. Super secret stealth bump for patch day! ;D
    Last edited by Phantoms; 2011-11-29 at 10:51 PM.

  13. #253
    How does new 5man 378 trinket look like? http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=72899#see-also

    Str + 20 sec mastery on 45sec ICD.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Pawelek View Post
    How does new 5man 378 trinket look like? http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=72899#see-also

    Str + 20 sec mastery on 45sec ICD.
    If the ICD on that trinket truly is 45 seconds, you're looking at about 3060 DPS from that trinket with a perfect uptime (looking at about 44.5% uptime), which somehow would make it as good as the RF version of Eye of Unmaking.

    Now, assuming this gets changed to a more standard 100 sec ICD, you'd be looking at a more reasonable 2215 DPS. Here's the math used for either situation (possibly wrong, haven't had coffee yet):

    45 sec ICD: (383 x 3.4 x 1.17) + (1149 + 20/45 + 1.75 + 1.72) = 3060 DPS
    100 sec ICD: (383 x 3.4 x 1.17) + (1149 + 20/100 + 1.75 + 1.72) = 2215 DPS

    I feel as if I should also point out that a 20 sec Mastery proc can be very easily lined up with AW/Zeal, and can be used consistently with Synapse Springs.
    Last edited by Vanderhuge; 2011-11-29 at 05:24 PM.

  15. #255
    Just got in on EU PTR. ICD for 378 trinket is 60cd, tested.

    According your math it should give 2675DPS. Can Kisko check dps estimation?
    Last edited by Pawelek; 2011-11-29 at 06:38 PM.

  16. #256
    The Patient Phantoms's Avatar
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    I can confirm the 60 second ICD on Varo'then's Brooch on live.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisko View Post
    [*]Weights used (SimCraft): Str 3.40, Crit 1.86, Mastery 1.75, AP 1.50, Haste 1.32.
    So SimCraft is putting crit at a higher value than mastery in 4.3 or am I misinterpreting the new weights somehow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhuge View Post
    45 sec ICD: (383 x 3.4 x 1.17) + (1149 + 20/45 + 1.75 + 1.72) = 3060 DPS
    100 sec ICD: (383 x 3.4 x 1.17) + (1149 + 20/100 + 1.75 + 1.72) = 2215 DPS
    I think Kisko was using 1.72 as coefficient for something that can be lined up 100% of the time with AW/Zeal (like AoK). If the ICD on the 5-man trinket is 60 seconds as people have been reporting, I think you should use something closer to 1.36 because you can line it up half the time (since CD on zeal/AW is twice as long as ICD on trinket).
    Last edited by tavistra; 2011-11-29 at 10:31 PM.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Phantoms View Post
    I figured I'd suggest pugging sources for each trinket, sometimes it helps and can even serve as a guide for people who are planning which bosses they need to be in or out for, and such.
    Good idea. Added.

    Quote Originally Posted by tavistra View Post
    So SimCraft is putting crit at a higher value than mastery in 4.3 or am I misinterpreting the new weights somehow?
    That's something I wouldn't really pay attention to right now. It's 4.3 SimCraft, but 4.2 gear set with both trinkets highly depending on crits.
    In a few weeks once we will get 4.3 gear and chardev will be updated I rerun all the numbers and I doubt crit will stay at that value then.

    Quote Originally Posted by tavistra View Post
    I think Kisko was using 1.72 as coefficient for something that can be lined up 100% of the time with AW/Zeal (like AoK). If the ICD on the 5-man trinket is 60 seconds as people have been reporting, I think you should use something closer to 1.36 because you can line it up half the time (since CD on zeal/AW is twice as long as ICD on trinket).
    That's exactly right, 1.36 for it. Added new 5-man trinket with 60s ICD.

  19. #259
    Kisko do u know the percentages for T13 over T12?

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Aonixx View Post
    Kisko do u know the percentages for T13 over T12?
    No, but common knowledge says to trade any T12 for 2-piece T13 even from LFR. If that's what you asking.

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