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  1. #521
    Howdy peeps, got a couple of questions about Survival, any help would be greatly appreciated;

    a) When LnL is triggered, am I supposed to let the DoT from ES finish before the next one, or am I supposed to just keep using ES over and over?

    b) How should I use Murder of Crows? Is it just as and when it's off CD, or is there a specific point i'm looking for?

    c) How should I use Dire Beast?

    d) Is Glaive Toss a mandatory pick or is Barrage a suitable exchange?

  2. #522
    Bloodsail Admiral Kissthebaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vedrenne View Post
    Howdy peeps, got a couple of questions about Survival, any help would be greatly appreciated;

    a) When LnL is triggered, am I supposed to let the DoT from ES finish before the next one, or am I supposed to just keep using ES over and over?

    b) How should I use Murder of Crows? Is it just as and when it's off CD, or is there a specific point i'm looking for?

    c) How should I use Dire Beast?

    d) Is Glaive Toss a mandatory pick or is Barrage a suitable exchange?
    a) no fire them all asap, you dont have to wait for it to fall off. so use them over and over

    b) use it off cd

    c) dont use dire beast. thrill of the hunt or fervor are better

    d) glaive toss is your single target pick and barrage for aoe fights.

    kissthebaby#1726

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Kissthebaby View Post
    a) no fire them all asap, you dont have to wait for it to fall off. so use them over and over

    b) use it off cd

    c) dont use dire beast. thrill of the hunt or fervor are better

    d) glaive toss is your single target pick and barrage for aoe fights.
    Thank you, sir.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedrenne View Post
    Howdy peeps, got a couple of questions about Survival, any help would be greatly appreciated;

    a) When LnL is triggered, am I supposed to let the DoT from ES finish before the next one, or am I supposed to just keep using ES over and over?

    b) How should I use Murder of Crows? Is it just as and when it's off CD, or is there a specific point i'm looking for?

    c) How should I use Dire Beast?

    d) Is Glaive Toss a mandatory pick or is Barrage a suitable exchange?
    no offence, but all of these questions can be answered by actually reading the guide.

  5. #525

  6. #526
    Mechagnome Zenora's Avatar
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    thanks for that, i made a few changes in talents after reading this guide and i feel alot better with my hunter now.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenora View Post
    thanks for that, i made a few changes in talents after reading this guide and i feel alot better with my hunter now.
    glad this helped

  8. #528
    I would change the order between ES > aMoC. You're much more likely to lose an ES delaying it then you are an aMoC. Especially with being able to get a LnL proc during that GCD which would instantly give you another.

    Also blink strikes can come out above aMoC on certain fights such as spoils, but also depending on the fight length even on single target. If the boss dies without the latter half of aMoC being able to do damage it loses a significant amount of DPS value. Same story for if you finish the fight with only a small amount left on the CD and don't get that cast off at all. It's good as a generalisation to use aMoC, but people should also tailor it's use to their specific guilds DPS and how fast they get through a boss.

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by Noima View Post
    I would change the order between ES > aMoC. You're much more likely to lose an ES delaying it then you are an aMoC. Especially with being able to get a LnL proc during that GCD which would instantly give you another.

    Also blink strikes can come out above aMoC on certain fights such as spoils, but also depending on the fight length even on single target. If the boss dies without the latter half of aMoC being able to do damage it loses a significant amount of DPS value. Same story for if you finish the fight with only a small amount left on the CD and don't get that cast off at all. It's good as a generalisation to use aMoC, but people should also tailor it's use to their specific guilds DPS and how fast they get through a boss.
    This is a good point, I actually use BS on spoils but I don't see much use for it on any other fight since majority of the time I leave my pet on whatever is going to be alive the longest

    The point about aMoC though, if you keep delaying it for ES aren't you making it more likely that you will lose some usage on it? Instead of just one or 2 ES

  10. #530
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    One explosive shot does more damage than one tick of amoc, so explosive shot has always prio over amoc.

    Also, amoc needs to do only 51% of pets basic attacks for it to be dps increase (okay, abit more since you "lose" 60focus when you use it), but since atleast first two amoc will get high uptime with aoc proc i find it doing even more damage than pets basic attack. Spoils and I'm not sure about galakras are two fights where you will get very, very rarely full uptime on amoc and in those fight pets teleport is good too are ofc different story.

  11. #531
    A few thoughts:

    There's no reason to keep the thread from three years ago. It's just 25 pages of bloat to get to any relevant posts/discussion, so making a new thread would've been better.

    I play BM primarily and I haven't simmed it so I may be completely mistaken, but I see stampede / AMoC / Dire Beast having a higher priority than ES and it makes me question it.

    The criticism about copying from EJ is accurate. I don't think you did copy-paste, but it feels very much like I'm reading that guide.

    The formatting for much of it is more spread than it needs to be, enchants and gems specifically.

    For the section on petbuffs, I suggest googling 'Mists of Pandaria buffs debuffs and abilities Kalliope' and using that chart instead, as it's a much more compact and easier to read table and has the side effect of making hunters more aware of what other classes bring without needed an addon or to ask someone. I would post the link myself, but apparently I need a higher post count for that.

    My biggest criticism is that the guide really only covers the very basics and could go way more indepth on fight-by-fight tricks/tips (condensing information available elsewhere) and going into more advanced steps of how to fine-tune your dps once you start getting past the easy dps gains from doing the right priority and getting 4pc/trinkets/weapons/legendary cloak. That said, you did put out a solid guide covering the basics, so good job there.

  12. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by soviett View Post
    One explosive shot does more damage than one tick of amoc, so explosive shot has always prio over amoc.

    Also, amoc needs to do only 51% of pets basic attacks for it to be dps increase (okay, abit more since you "lose" 60focus when you use it), but since atleast first two amoc will get high uptime with aoc proc i find it doing even more damage than pets basic attack. Spoils and I'm not sure about galakras are two fights where you will get very, very rarely full uptime on amoc and in those fight pets teleport is good too are ofc different story.
    yes but amoc is one global for 30 seconds of damage whereas you get 3 ticks only for an ES. In addition you get to use ES while amoc is up.

    Let's look at this in a practical situation:

    Fight length is 5 minutes long, allowing 3 uses of amoc at 0:05, 2:05 and 4:05 or thereabouts. You never really "lose" explosive shots apart from if you use a global when LnL has procced and it had the potential to give you free ES for the entire duration (let's be honest the chances are pretty low for that).

    In my gear, crows does an average of 1.35m damage per cast, ES does 372k. I would need to "lose" 4 ES for it to be a DPS loss. Now that might sound small but bearing in mind crows could be used when ES is not off cd anyway it's kind of hazy and subject to a lot of RNG.

    Finally over that 5 minute fight the more you start delaying crows the closer you will get to the point where you will lose ticks on it. Obviously not every fight takes 5 minutes but it's actually the length of time that favours delaying crows the most (odd number).

    However I feel that stacking crows on top of trinkets swings the priority over to it's favour since it can make use of a whole AoC proc and potentially others as well like scope, gloves and possibly TED/haromms whereas you might only get 3 ES in the time those proc and have to use the rest of the proc on arcane shots.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakrion View Post
    A few thoughts:

    There's no reason to keep the thread from three years ago. It's just 25 pages of bloat to get to any relevant posts/discussion, so making a new thread would've been better.

    I play BM primarily and I haven't simmed it so I may be completely mistaken, but I see stampede / AMoC / Dire Beast having a higher priority than ES and it makes me question it.

    The criticism about copying from EJ is accurate. I don't think you did copy-paste, but it feels very much like I'm reading that guide.

    The formatting for much of it is more spread than it needs to be, enchants and gems specifically.

    For the section on petbuffs, I suggest googling 'Mists of Pandaria buffs debuffs and abilities Kalliope' and using that chart instead, as it's a much more compact and easier to read table and has the side effect of making hunters more aware of what other classes bring without needed an addon or to ask someone. I would post the link myself, but apparently I need a higher post count for that.

    My biggest criticism is that the guide really only covers the very basics and could go way more indepth on fight-by-fight tricks/tips (condensing information available elsewhere) and going into more advanced steps of how to fine-tune your dps once you start getting past the easy dps gains from doing the right priority and getting 4pc/trinkets/weapons/legendary cloak. That said, you did put out a solid guide covering the basics, so good job there.
    First of all, thank you for the feedback.

    I kept the thread because I thought that a lot of history is stored here and it would be a shame if it was just erased. I find reading other guides with similar lengthy discussions interesting because I get to see how the class has evolved through the years and overall gives me a better understanding on how to play it. If a moderator would like to lift the guide and put it in another thread for current discussion I'd be more than happy to oblige.

    I'm pretty sure I listed stampede and amoc as higher priority but dire beast is a little less certain. I file it under the same reason why we prioritise ES over BA also since unless it's delayed so long that you've lost enough beast attacks over the course of the fight that adds up to more than one ES there's no reason to use it over ES. Yes it grants us focus but survival is swimming in focus most of the time.

    Obviously I took inspiration from EJ and they made good guides back in the day. Emulating something that works doesn't mean I copied it and makes it no less useful.

    Formatting seems to be a bitch on this forum if I'm going to be honest. I'm not experienced enough with this to make it look better and I've tried looking up solutions. If you've ever had a look at some of the other guides from other forums I think they're not much better and mainly plaintext with some text formatting.

    Kalliope's chart is amazing. Thank you for that.

    This guide originally had an encounter guide, but I saw one had been stickied on top of the forum and I didn't think it was needed.

  13. #533
    I'd honestly mention that Dire Beast really is the weakest choice. Saying it's viable is a bit misleading. It is the worst talent out of the tier by quite a margin, and along with the pathing issues it can be victim to, missing swings and such, it should never be taken.

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by Alth View Post
    I'd honestly mention that Dire Beast really is the weakest choice. Saying it's viable is a bit misleading. It is the worst talent out of the tier by quite a margin, and along with the pathing issues it can be victim to, missing swings and such, it should never be taken.
    it does sim the highest though. Any particular reason why you get pathing issues with it? I don't think I've experienced any while playing BM with this.

  15. #535
    Herald of the Titans Azortharion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    it does sim the highest though. Any particular reason why you get pathing issues with it? I don't think I've experienced any while playing BM with this.
    Only realls sims the highest because the sim doesn't play Fervor optimally while Dire Beast is fire-and-forget.

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  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphoric View Post
    Only realls sims the highest because the sim doesn't play Fervor optimally while Dire Beast is fire-and-forget.
    how is fervor played? I don't have much experience with it but I can try and make a APL for it if you can describe how its played perfectly.

  17. #537
    Herald of the Titans Azortharion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    how is fervor played? I don't have much experience with it but I can try and make a APL for it if you can describe how its played perfectly.
    Dump focus on Arcanes/whatever's applicable before using it. Atm the sim just uses it whenever you're below 65 focus or something. Would be extremely hard to make an APL for, because while you can set the threshold much lower, the sim won't necessarily play around that.

    Azortharion#2528
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  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphoric View Post
    Dump focus on Arcanes/whatever's applicable before using it. Atm the sim just uses it whenever you're below 65 focus or something. Would be extremely hard to make an APL for, because while you can set the threshold much lower, the sim won't necessarily play around that.
    what would it do if, for example, you set the threshold to 30?

  19. #539
    Herald of the Titans Azortharion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    what would it do if, for example, you set the threshold to 30?
    Only use Fervor when it gets below 30 focus which will almost never happen because the sim uses Arcane Shot at 61 focus which will only take it down to 31. It's not smart enough to actively dump focus before using it. You could write an APL for it, but chances are the program would just crash.

    Azortharion#2528
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  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphoric View Post
    Only use Fervor when it gets below 30 focus which will almost never happen because the sim uses Arcane Shot at 61 focus which will only take it down to 31. It's not smart enough to actively dump focus before using it. You could write an APL for it, but chances are the program would just crash.
    anyone having trouble with simc iterations atm? The results page keeps saying 1 iteration and every sim I do has big variance.

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