Page 4 of 29 FirstFirst ...
2
3
4
5
6
14
... LastLast
  1. #61
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Stjørdal, Norway
    Posts
    103
    Had the same problem as u had with the reforging site Ilana, but just typed in 961hit > 778haste > crit > mastery in teh last page before it supposed to start doing it's maths and it seems to be working now so gonna have some fun with it looking over stats with different haste plateus

  2. #62
    Dreadlord WillFeral's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    South Bend
    Posts
    978
    I have a question: I'm still kind of confused on how much haste a surv hunter should have now,could someone please replay in simple terms and not some insane math equation?

  3. #63
    758 + enough to overcome your latency or 2200+. Assuming no 4pc t11.

    758 + 3/3 pathign and 10% attack speed buff gives you exactly 3 Cobra Shots between ES

    2200+ haste gives you 4 Cobra Shots and slightly delays ES. This is the break point where that delay is a DPS gain and more haste above this point is a significant dps gain.

  4. #64
    wowreforge.com and reforgecalc.de do the exact same thing. The only difference is that reforgecalc.de uses your computer's processor, and is not very well translated. With the right settings, wowreforge.com is just as accurate, and much much faster since it uses a server to calculate everything rather than your own computer. Also its in english.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    wowreforge.com and reforgecalc.de do the exact same thing. The only difference is that reforgecalc.de uses your computer's processor, and is not very well translated. With the right settings, wowreforge.com is just as accurate, and much much faster since it uses a server to calculate everything rather than your own computer. Also its in english.
    ^this... learn it.... love it.... god damn! wowreforge>all.

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-17 at 12:27 PM ----------

    Why is the elemental portion maximized when Master% = crit %? In the equation above, the elemental portion of the damage will always increase as mastery increases, so it's maximized when mastery is infinitely large.

    Why do you not get a better return until crit% is 3 to 4 times greater than mastery? I believe you are saying 20%/80% for 4 times greater? I believe you are over simplifying the problem, but I would love to see some math to the contrary if you can provide it.

    Now, other considerations you posted have some relevance which lead to the fuzzy area of dps maximization. Mastery will definitely not help our crit based procs, etc. Also my math did not include the possibility of a 3% crit meta (although I doubt anyone in top tear will use such a meta until they change the red/blue requirement). We can make attempts to factor in some value for these considerations, but they do not make my previous post any less accurate. Mastery will overtake crit at some point.

    For example, at 26% crit the dps increase for 1% crit is already down to .8%. Here's some fun numbers:
    0-1% = 1% increase
    25-26% = .8% increase
    50-51% = .67% increase
    75-76% = .57% increase

    Keep in mind that the percent increase of dps for 1% in mastery will always be:
    (percentage of total damage effected by mastery)*(.01)

    Also keep in mind that as crit % increases, the (percentage of total damage effected by mastery) most likely also increases.

    Does this make mroe sense to you? The % increase value of mastery only every increases while the % increase value of crit only decreases. When mastery surpasses crit, mastery becomes more valuable. Based on the 80% assumption, this will occur around 25% crit.

    @ EJ

    and this

    http://elitistjerks.com/f74/t110723-...5/#post1823922

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by zeta333 View Post
    Correct me if im wrong but isnt auto shot the only non elemental damage we do?
    Kill shot generally makes up around 6-7% of my DPS since it crits so often and very hard since survival has the agility increase (average 48k crits)

    It's a common misconception that crit decreases in value as you get more of it. It does seem that way but what's actually happening is that mastery is gaining in value because you're doing double the damage on your elemental shots more often.

    There will be a threshold to where crit and mastery will have the same EP value and there will be a point where mastery will be worth more, but we are nowhere near it at this point.

    It's like how in wotlk, arp stacking wasn't viable until late ToC since no gear had it latently and gemming for it meant a huge loss in AP/crit and made it worthless anyway.

    During the nightmare of icc where every hunter just looked at the top raiding hunters and thought "full arp stacking with needle encrusted scorpion means i will do lots of dps" and then discovering they did less DPS and then complaining about it I was exhausted explaining to people how it just didn't work like that.

    I would say mastery would start to become a better choice for survival at around 45% crit, that's only from my estimations from when arpen stacking was viable in wotlk since it works on a similar principle but the other way around, the physical portion being boosted.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    Kill shot generally makes up around 6-7% of my DPS since it crits so often and very hard since survival has the agility increase (average 48k crits)

    It's a common misconception that crit decreases in value as you get more of it. It does seem that way but what's actually happening is that mastery is gaining in value because you're doing double the damage on your elemental shots more often.

    There will be a threshold to where crit and mastery will have the same EP value and there will be a point where mastery will be worth more, but we are nowhere near it at this point.

    It's like how in wotlk, arp stacking wasn't viable until late ToC since no gear had it latently and gemming for it meant a huge loss in AP/crit and made it worthless anyway.

    During the nightmare of icc where every hunter just looked at the top raiding hunters and thought "full arp stacking with needle encrusted scorpion means i will do lots of dps" and then discovering they did less DPS and then complaining about it I was exhausted explaining to people how it just didn't work like that.

    I would say mastery would start to become a better choice for survival at around 45% crit, that's only from my estimations from when arpen stacking was viable in wotlk since it works on a similar principle but the other way around, the physical portion being boosted.
    yeah but arp is not elemental dmg cuz sv -> 80% elemental 20%phys ... and mastery is contant not like arp and the boss armor only reduced a lil bit phys dmg ._. dont compare apple with beans ;D sry 4 my engl...

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkets View Post
    yeah but arp is not elemental dmg cuz sv -> 80% elemental 20%phys ... and mastery is contant not like arp and the boss armor only reduced a lil bit phys dmg ._. dont compare apple with beans ;D sry 4 my engl...
    um, back in wotlk it was pretty much 80>20 but the other way round for marks. 20% of your damage was chimera/serpent and rest of it was autoshot/aimed/steady.

    How was arp not constant? I had 100% arp without trinket so it was definitely constant for me.

    And it didn't only reduce a "little" bit. If it only reduced boss armour a "little bit" why were all the heroic geared hunters aiming for 100%?

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    um, back in wotlk it was pretty much 80>20 but the other way round for marks. 20% of your damage was chimera/serpent and rest of it was autoshot/aimed/steady.

    How was arp not constant? I had 100% arp without trinket so it was definitely constant for me.

    And it didn't only reduce a "little" bit. If it only reduced boss armour a "little bit" why were all the heroic geared hunters aiming for 100%?
    xD dmg gain per point... arp is not contant like mastery.. thats why we gotta wait to hit the 100% mark

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-17 at 02:43 PM ----------

    "It's like how in wotlk, arp stacking wasn't viable until late ToC since no gear had it latently and gemming for it meant a huge loss in AP/crit and made it worthless anyway." with sv mastery we are closer to this point as arp was ._. face it

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkets View Post
    xD dmg gain per point... arp is not contant like mastery.. thats why we gotta wait to hit the 100% mark

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-17 at 02:43 PM ----------

    "It's like how in wotlk, arp stacking wasn't viable until late ToC since no gear had it latently and gemming for it meant a huge loss in AP/crit and made it worthless anyway." with sv mastery we are closer to this point as arp was ._. face it
    It was constant like mastery. The issue just was that it became exponentially better, and at a much faster rate than mastery (youre not gonna be seeing mastery anywhere near as valueable as ARP ever was, as that'd make it a tossup between gemming agil or mastery).
    Something most people forget, is that our pet is about 9-10% dmg (which are not affected by mastery). Taking the rank 1 V+T10 parse (because V+T is basicly a tank and spank), 9% dmg from pet, and roughly 21% dmg from autoshot and kill shot... Yeilding 30% average damage done which IS NOT affected by mastery (and this should be the usual for any fight where the pet gets a decent uptime, by the way).
    Do also note that the post linked from EJ is old, and does not consider the 3% crit bonus from the meta (its from back before the requirements were changed from blues to reds), further buffing crit.

    At the moment, 1% crit for a survivial hunter translates directly into 1.03% dps with the meta modifier. Because a crit is 103% more damage, and 1% crit equals 1%, if anyone should want "math". It's fairly obvious.
    Untill 1 point of mastery will provide more than 1.03% dps increase, it's not gonna be greater than crit - and consider that when crit affects 30% damage MORE than mastery, thats not gonna be anytime soon.

  11. #71
    I think draco put it nicely

    don't think there will ever be a situation again where we will think about gemming anything except agility.

  12. #72
    Im in the interesting situation where high haste survival is simming and performing AHEAD of high haste MM. Will prob change once i get 2pce t12 and break 4pce.
    A man chooses, a Slave obeys. OBEY! - Andrew Ryan, Bioshock

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelkyri View Post
    Im in the interesting situation where high haste survival is simming and performing AHEAD of high haste MM. Will prob change once i get 2pce t12 and break 4pce.
    Could you provide with an armory link? Because thats very unusual.

  14. #74
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lkyri/advanced

    surv, with best buffs/debuffs 27069.08

    mm, best buffs/debuffs 26482.18

    my haste isnt perfectly number cruched, playing from Aus with 200ms ping means I need to add a bit extra for latency (200ms = 0.2 secs, the equiv of our 4pce >.<)

    edit: numbers are from FD
    A man chooses, a Slave obeys. OBEY! - Andrew Ryan, Bioshock

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    It was constant like mastery. The issue just was that it became exponentially better, and at a much faster rate than mastery (youre not gonna be seeing mastery anywhere near as valueable as ARP ever was, as that'd make it a tossup between gemming agil or mastery).
    Something most people forget, is that our pet is about 9-10% dmg (which are not affected by mastery). Taking the rank 1 V+T10 parse (because V+T is basicly a tank and spank), 9% dmg from pet, and roughly 21% dmg from autoshot and kill shot... Yeilding 30% average damage done which IS NOT affected by mastery (and this should be the usual for any fight where the pet gets a decent uptime, by the way).
    Do also note that the post linked from EJ is old, and does not consider the 3% crit bonus from the meta (its from back before the requirements were changed from blues to reds), further buffing crit.

    At the moment, 1% crit for a survivial hunter translates directly into 1.03% dps with the meta modifier. Because a crit is 103% more damage, and 1% crit equals 1%, if anyone should want "math". It's fairly obvious.
    Untill 1 point of mastery will provide more than 1.03% dps increase, it's not gonna be greater than crit - and consider that when crit affects 30% damage MORE than mastery, thats not gonna be anytime soon.
    arp did the same to our pet like sv mastery ;D

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-17 at 06:09 PM ----------

    omg agi @ wotlk was crit+1rap ... xD now its 2rap+crit

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-17 at 06:10 PM ----------

    btw @ my current setup with crit... @ female dwarf ... showed me 0.33 dmg gain per crit rating - mastery 0.83... so wat now?
    im also talkin about t12 ;D u know

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-17 at 07:02 PM ----------

    http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/...-stat-scaling/

    now scroll down to Corwyn - he did some math 4 u .... read it.... plox ~.~
    Last edited by Arkets; 2011-07-17 at 04:44 PM.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    Kill shot generally makes up around 6-7% of my DPS since it crits so often and very hard since survival has the agility increase (average 48k crits)

    It's a common misconception that crit decreases in value as you get more of it. It does seem that way but what's actually happening is that mastery is gaining in value because you're doing double the damage on your elemental shots more often.

    There will be a threshold to where crit and mastery will have the same EP value and there will be a point where mastery will be worth more, but we are nowhere near it at this point.

    It's like how in wotlk, arp stacking wasn't viable until late ToC since no gear had it latently and gemming for it meant a huge loss in AP/crit and made it worthless anyway.

    During the nightmare of icc where every hunter just looked at the top raiding hunters and thought "full arp stacking with needle encrusted scorpion means i will do lots of dps" and then discovering they did less DPS and then complaining about it I was exhausted explaining to people how it just didn't work like that.

    I would say mastery would start to become a better choice for survival at around 45% crit, that's only from my estimations from when arpen stacking was viable in wotlk since it works on a similar principle but the other way around, the physical portion being boosted.
    Ahh i forgot about kill shot, I was personally thinking after seeing the massive amount of mastery on firelands items that it would jump up in value alot for surv.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkets View Post
    arp did the same to our pet like sv mastery ;D

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-17 at 06:09 PM ----------

    omg agi @ wotlk was crit+1rap ... xD now its 2rap+crit

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-17 at 06:10 PM ----------

    btw @ my current setup with crit... @ female dwarf ... showed me 0.33 dmg gain per crit rating - mastery 0.83... so wat now?
    im also talkin about t12 ;D u know

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-17 at 07:02 PM ----------

    http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/...-stat-scaling/

    now scroll down to Corwyn - he did some math 4 u .... read it.... plox ~.~
    so basically he's just put what I've said into mathematical formula.

    Crit is the best stat until a certain point until they both become equal and then there will be a point where mastery is better.

    I don't see people getting 41.3% base crit this raid tier, I'm at ilevel 370 now and I have just under 32% crit.

    An extra 22 ilevels plus the fact we have to make up for lost haste from 4part t11 means that we won't hit 41.3% crit this raid tier.

    Also crit is not the same value as mastery since mastery doesn't affect all our shots so it will probably end up being that the threshold is going to be 45-50%

    HEY DOESN'T THIS SOUND FAMILIAR, HI WOTLK.

    Basically we've been agreeing with each other this whole time but I just think there was a miscommunication

  18. #78
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Kenosha, Wisconsin
    Posts
    10,206
    Yeah, we won't be reaching the right "crit-zone" for another tier or so. At ilvl 366 with my flask, 10 stacks of the buff from Fluid Death, and the proc from H Essence of the Cyclone, I think I was able to hit ~42% crit. But being able to maintain that is going to take a while.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Vurrin View Post
    758 + enough to overcome your latency or 2200+. Assuming no 4pc t11.

    758 + 3/3 pathign and 10% attack speed buff gives you exactly 3 Cobra Shots between ES

    2200+ haste gives you 4 Cobra Shots and slightly delays ES. This is the break point where that delay is a DPS gain and more haste above this point is a significant dps gain.
    2265 haste according to WHU, but unless you're rocking full BiS gear you'll need to reforge out of crit to get that much haste.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkets View Post
    arp did the same to our pet like sv mastery ;D

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-17 at 06:09 PM ----------

    omg agi @ wotlk was crit+1rap ... xD now its 2rap+crit

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-17 at 06:10 PM ----------

    btw @ my current setup with crit... @ female dwarf ... showed me 0.33 dmg gain per crit rating - mastery 0.83... so wat now?
    im also talkin about t12 ;D u know

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-17 at 07:02 PM ----------

    http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/...-stat-scaling/

    now scroll down to Corwyn - he did some math 4 u .... read it.... plox ~.~
    I dont follow you. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? The fact that pets didnt gain anything from ARP means... Nothing. ARP was still the superior stat because it was worth so much DPS. I'm saying that we will never see Mastery start to scale so insanely well as ARP did. I'm also saying that Mastery isn't going to be superior to crit for a long time - and most definetly not this tier, if ever.

    ...Why did you need to tell me that agi in WOTLK was crit+1rap? I don't get it.

    If your current setup gives crit a 0.33 dps and mastery a 0.83 dps per rating, god knows what the heck youre doing. I'm in about 375 average and have 0.937 per crit and 0.754 per mastery (in MM reforges, which means I have 1.3k haste). Haste is shown as 1.776 due to wierd plateus I guess.

    In any case, stop playing smart if you aren't - it hurts to try and read what youre writing as it is.


    Vaelkyri, youre doing something wrong. I get a 27698.24 DPS max from MM with your current gear - did you put steady shot, aimed shot and chimera shot behaviour to the max potentials (in pairs if ISS <=4 seconds, hardcasted during careful aim, and delay till <= 2.9 sec left on sting) ? Or did you just go with whatever was plugged in?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •